America Founded as a Christian Nation

[NotfooledbyW]

#1181 reply to post #1175. Protestant Christianity influenced the British Colonial population and it’s Founding Fathers a thousandfold more than Catholicism, Muhammadism, Hinduism, Judaism, Atheism, agnosticism, and all the entire world’s religions combined.

#1175.

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States.

#1181 Anyone making the argument against the Christian Nationalism of our era based on a claim that there was no Christian influence in the Constitution is a fool and is ignorant and worst of all, devoid of reason and literacy.

But Porter Rockwell can only make his Protestant Christian Nationalist case against an apparition, a boogeyman ttat exists mostly in his own mind.

The argument against Christian Nationalism is that Protestant Christianity’s mainstream preachers and followers beliefs intersected with the very profound influence of the secular Age of Reason. And it worked.

The collision between faith and reason in pre-Revolution America forever changed Christianity in a most profound way. All for the good of mankind.

Men of Reason, at the critical time of American history, did not lose the utmost respect for the moral civilizing impact that Protestantism had on keeping order among the population. They knew that traditional religion was needed to build a great nation. Reason did not dictate opposition to the church.

Jefferson, Paine and Ethan Allen were the exceptions of that.

This is difficult to explain to people who want faith and faith alone to be the spark and fire of the Revolution and founding. That’s not even half true.

I want to introduce another one of the heroes and great patriots of revolutionary time that some credit with being at the top of the list of persuading the Christian population to revolt and fight a war against a King that embodied God’s rule on earth.

This is Thomas Paine. He wrote the AGE OF REASON.

The Age of Reason - Wikipedia

Thomas Paine (born Thomas Pain[1]) (February 9, 1737 [O.S. January 29, 1736][Note 1] – June 8, 1809) was an English-born American political activist, philosopher, political theorist, and revolutionary. He authored the two most influential pamphlets at the start of the American Revolution and inspired the patriots in 1776 to declare independence from Great Britain.[2] His ideas reflected Enlightenment-era ideals of transnational human rights.[3] Historian Saul K. Padover described him as "a corsetmaker by trade, a journalist by profession, and a propagandist by inclination".[4]

Thomas Paine

Portrait by Laurent Dabos (c. 1792)
Born
Thomas Pain
February 9, 1737
Thetford, Norfolk, Great Britain
Died June 8, 1809(aged 72)
New York City, United States
Spouse(s)
Mary Lambert (m. 1759)
Elizabeth Ollive
(m. 1771; separated 1774)
Era Age of Enlightenment
School Liberalism
Republicanism
Main interests
Politics, ethics, religion
Influences

• Jacobin, Voltaire, Jean-Jacques Rousseau, John Locke, Religious Society of Friends, Montesquieu, Benjamin Franklin

Influenced

• Thomas Jefferson, William Godwin, Mary Wollstonecraft, Pierre Victurnien Vergniaud, Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Edison, Karl Marx, Sigmund Freud, Charles Darwin, Friedrich Nietzsche, Jyotirao Phule, Moncure D. Conway, Bertrand Russell, Christopher Hitchens, Robert G. Ingersoll

Signature

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1183 reply to #1174

The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

The absolute neutrality on religion in the US Constitution does not marginalize the dominant religion of the country.

It would be good if Porter Rockwell could explain why he thinks neutrality on religion marginalizes the dominant religion.

But since Porter Rockwell does not read my posts we will never know what he thinks or can explain.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

BEFORE I do any more posts, the board troll seeks validation here.

The board troll is convinced he holds a monopoly on the truth and he spends every day trying to condemn me and call me names. Yet throughout the course of this 1185 + post thread...

NOBODY SUPPORTS NOTFOOLEDBYW'S ERRONEOUS CONCLUSIONS NOR HIS PATHETIC NAME CALLING - NOBODY

By contrast, I'd like to review a few things that have been said to NOTFOOLEDBYW:

In post # 130 NOTFOOLEDBYW was told by another poster:

"No, they didn't. They sought to avoid an Established Church.
THat you try to spin that as "rejection of Religion" is not reasonable."

In post # 134, NOTFOOLEDBYW was told:

"Oh, man I see how this is going. The libs know that they cannot refute the OP, so they will just bog the thread down in insanely boring historical trivia and be insulting assholes until they get the thread locked.

ON some level, they all know that America is a Christian nation, and that they cannot hope to refute that point, but they can't admit it, nor do they even want to see it discussed."

In post # 175 NOTFOOLEDBYW was admonished:

"YOu think that is what he is trying to say? How interesting. YOu happen to think that the person you disagree with is motivated by "blah, blah, blah, evul"?

What a shock.

Anyhow, nothing of that, contradicts his assertion. It is all irrelevant to the intentions of the Founders.

YOu are, as we all expected, unable to even address the topic, but still here to try to fill the thread with garbage in order to suppress any real debate, until one of you lib trolls can get the thread locked.
That is how you libs debate now. Because as a group, you know that you cannot really win debates, because the positions you push, are actually bad if not actively evil"

Over a thousand posts later and the troll is STILL trying the same tactic that has not gotten him ANY support.

I've never seen this much foolishness or stupidity in my life. But, it is helping me to get all the information into one place so that this turd will never be able to have this argument on this board ever again without being made a fool of.

He rests his case on Thomas Jefferson with a few selected quotes, totally ignoring the facts that do not support his conclusion.

According to Wikipedia:

"Jefferson was raised in the Church of England at a time when it was the established church in Virginia and only denomination funded by Virginia tax money. Before the Revolution, parishes were units of local government, and Jefferson served as a vestryman, a lay administrative position in his local parish. Office-holding qualifications at all levels—including the Virginia House of Burgesses, to which Jefferson was elected in 1769—required affiliation with the current state religion and a commitment that one would neither express dissent nor do anything that did not conform to church doctrine. Jefferson counted clergy among his friends, and he contributed financially to the Anglican Church he attended regularly."

Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Here was a man that spent his own money to make sure that every home in America that could not afford a Bible had one at Jefferson's expense... and those Bibles contained the things that Jefferson would go on to renounce at another point in his life - only to start accepting that which he rejected toward the end of his life. NOTFOOLEDBYW has not proven a damn thing except that he's an idiot that wants to follow me around every day like a dog in heat.

But, as long as he's chasing me, he's not infecting the rest of this board with his wasteful and idiotic stupidity. He now has an audience of ONE. And he cannot convince me that his anti-Christ ideology is remotely right. Hell I don't even read his posts any more. I see maybe the first or last sentence, and post all around it so that nobody else will pay attention to this thread. Just living in the troll's head, rent free.

 

[BreezeWood]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

.

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

It would be good if Porter Rockwell could explain why he thinks neutrality on religion marginalizes the dominant religion.

We are not done.

all of antiquity flourished long before the 4th century christian bible - began the ages of persecution and victimization of the innocent. misconstruing the events of the 1st century. why the founders in their wisdom separated religion from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

rockwell needs their 4th century christianity to be embedded in society's constitution as its fallacies are unable to survive an enlightened, free society (jefferson) the framers were successfully able to establish - freedom from the dogmas of any religion especially the three desert religions that have abandoned the prescribed religion of antiquity and the reason for their anxiety against open, unhindered religious affiliation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION IV

In this summation of the founding of America as a Christian nation, we've been looking at the United States Supreme Court Justices. We covered the Chief Justices that the founders / framers appointed and now I'm starting with some of those that Washington appointed. The first one, William Cushing provides a counter balance to Jefferson, who was just one founder. According to Wikipedia about Cushing:

" He generally held a nationalist view typically in line with the views of the Federalist Party, and often disagreed with Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republicans."

William Cushing - Wikipedia

I found little about Cushing save of this in a very brief look into his background:

"American jurist who was the first appointee to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Cushing graduated from Harvard in 1751"

William Cushing | United States jurist

Harvard was founded as a Christian college. According to Wikipedia:

"The early motto of Harvard was Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae, meaning "Truth for Christ and the Church". In the early classes, half the graduates became ministers (though by the 1760s the proportion was down to 15%) and ten of Harvard's first twelve presidents were ministers. Systematic theological instruction was inaugurated in 1721 and by 1827 Harvard became a nucleus of theological teaching in New England"

History of Harvard University - Wikipedia

Safe to say Cushing was influenced by Christianity.

James Wilson, another Washington Supreme Court appointee:

"He changed his practicing religion from Presbyterian to Episcopalian"and in 1779 became the advocate general for France in America.

James Wilson | The Society of the Descendants of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence

Although John Blair received a Christian education, his grand uncle being the founder of William and Mary College, Blair was a Freemason, so score one for the "Deists."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blair_Jr.

As we make this journey, we aren't so much concerned as to who was what so much as we are concerned with the final product. What did America become?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

.

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

It would be good if Porter Rockwell could explain why he thinks neutrality on religion marginalizes the dominant religion.

We are not done.

all of antiquity flourished long before the 4th century christian bible - began the ages of persecution and victimization of the innocent. misconstruing the events of the 1st century. why the founders in their wisdom separated religion from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

rockwell needs their 4th century christianity to be embedded in society's constitution as its fallacies are unable to survive an enlightened, free society (jefferson) the framers were successfully able to establish - freedom from the dogmas of any religion especially the three desert religions that have abandoned the prescribed religion of antiquity and the reason for their anxiety against open, unhindered religious affiliation.

Quit pretending, sockpuppet.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AN ADDENDUM TO NOTFOOLEDBYW AKA "BREEZEWOOD" if you are following that whizzing contest

Just in case anyone has followed the saga of the poster known as NOTFOOLEDBYW, I want to take a moment to acknowledge his vicious attacks on me that, as I type those were 187 out of the 1025 posts. He received 137 negative responses for his attacks and a single hit and run poster (which is against the rules) took a swipe at me (and that violated the rules in this zone.)

NOTFOOLEDBYW's very first post (#78) was to take a swipe at Christianity with a claim that it was bullshit (sic.) The post did not address the OP; it was just an off topic insult. If his post was not relative to the OP (it was not) then he deliberately, knowingly and purposely insulted me.

NOTFOOLEDBYW has made it his mission to claim I insulted him first. My position is that his post did not address the OP, it started the thread on a downward spiral. So, when I said "ignorance is bliss," he comes unglued for 187 posts so far. His entire argument rests on an accusation regarding what "I" said. I left a quote from a source. The quote is italicized and in quotation marks AND the title and page of a book, but no link. It should be apparent to any idiot that those were not my words.

NOTFOOLEDBYW made a big deal about it, so I researched the book and posted the title and everything needed to locate it on the page my link said it was on. Then NOTFOOLEDBYW issued a challenge in post # 831. He says:

"Can anyone find a direct quote by Thomas Jefferson that reads this way in these exact words. If you do I will no longer post to this thread.

"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ."

In post # 838 I accepted his challenge and repeated the quote I had from the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

NOTFOOLEDBYW's argument is that I lied. Pardon my language, but you have to be one dumb fuck not to understand that a quote in quotation marks AND in italics are not my words, but a quote. Consequently, it is dishonest to say I lied. I provided the source and there is no requirement in NOTFOOLEDBYW'S challenge that says the quote must be accurate or fit some standard. NOTFOOLEDBYW is a dishonorable liar that did not keep his word.

And so this saga has caused NOTFOOLEDBYW to misrepresent my positions, lie, complain, and attempt to derail this thread to the point that correll wants to lock the thread. I simply don't want to give one troll that kind of power over me. NOTFOOLEDBYW has gotten 137 negative responses and he has called posters here morons, liars, fools, LUNATICS, etc. He wanted to be the poster boy for the secularists or maybe humanists. The best he could do is waste a tremendous amount of bandwidth over one word. Ironically, with or without that word, it does not change the facts that were brought to the table AND WHOLLY IRRELEVANT TO THE OP.

SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS, DAILY HARASSMENT, THE GUY IS A COWARD AND NOT A MAN OF HIS WORD

 

[Porter Rockwell]

ACKNOWLEDGING THE TROLL 11 Feb 2020 Update

I made no such claims. NONE OF NOTFOOLEDBYW'S CRITICISMS REFLECT MY VIEWS; NOTHING HE SAYS IS TRUE This list of NOTFOOLEDBYW updated today and an addendum follows in the next post...

NOTFOOLEDBYW - YOU ARE A FILTHY LIAR. SEE THE UPDATES THAT PROVE SAME. Bolded for everyone's convenience

NOTFOOLEDBYW'S FINAL RESPONSE

This thread is now 1158 posts long as I begin this response. Of those, NOTFOOLEDBYW has made a total of 213 posts. They are posts # 78, 80, 111, 113, 118, 126, 140, 154, 157, 158, 159, 162, 172, 174, 179, 189, 192, 195, 196, 197, 203, 204, 205, 212, 220, 224, 225, 232, 233, 234, 235, 240, 240, 241, 242, 243, 246, 247, 254, 255, 256, 267, 279, 280, 285, 290, 296, 297, 302, 307, 309, 318, 321, 328, 330, 335, 339, 340, 341, 345, 347, 350, 350, 351, 352, 367, 370, 373, 381, 393, 394, 399, 401, 404, 411, 412, 413, 420, 421, 425, 426, 429, 430, 431, 432, 468, 485, 500, 504, 508, 512, 516, 519, 525, 527, 537, 539, 541, 546, 549, 551, 554, 557, 559, 561, 563, 565, 566, 569, 570, 574, 577, 581, 582, 587, 589, 606, 607, 610, 626, 630, 636, 642, 644, 646, 684, 688, 699, 700, 703, 704, 707, 708, 709, 715, 716, 718, 724, 725, 730, 740, 744, 746, 747, 750, 753, 754, 755, 761, 762, 769, 774, 782, 7998, 800, ... that is 155 posts out of 805, 807, 812, 824, 827, 830, 831, 832, 844, 847, 860, 872, 899, 904,913, 929, 936, 943, 946, 951, 965, 973, 986, 999, 1011, 1018,1033, 1037, 1039, 1040, 1047, 1049, 1052, 1063, 1074, 1076, 1079, 1080, 1083, 1090, 1096, 1097, 1108, 1111, 1124, 1132, 1140, 1146, 1147, 1152, 1153, 1154

In virtually every post NOTFOOLEDBYW has insulted posters, called them liars, misrepresented people, and NOBODY has defended his positions.


By contrast, NOTFOOLEDBYW has been challenged by numerous posters to whom NOTFOOLEDBYW has called liars, fools, morons, and accused them of all manner of wrongdoing. Those posters responded a total of 137 times in posts: #120, 130, 134, 167, 169,174, 176, 175, 176, 180, 185, 206, 207, 250, 282, 299, 346, 346, 354, 396, 397, 403, 405, 406, 407, 414, 415, 416, 424, 427, 428, 433, 434, 438, 439, 440, 445, 446, 447, 448, 450, 451, 452, 453, 454, 455, 456, 457, 458, 460, 461, 464, 465, 466, 467, 469, 470, 472, 474, 476, 483, 484, 490, 491, 492, 493, 494, 496, 497, 498, 499, 501, 502, 517, 518, 521, 526, 528, 531, 558, 562, 564, 567, 568, 571, 573, 576, 578, 579, 588, 591, 593, 594, 595, 596, 598, 599, 600, 603, 608, 612, 613, 615, 618, 627, 628, 629, 633, 645, 648, 653, 658, 665, 668, 698, 701, 705, 706, 711, 722, 723, 726, 751, 764, 765, 779, 834, 837, 839, 954, 971, 974, 976, 1002, 1016, 1019 - and I have not recorded the people who have disagreed with him past this point

I have been obliged to respond to NOTFOOLEDBYW more than 100 times personally. There are roughly 500 posts that have revolved around this one poster. TO DATE NOBODY IS SUPPORTING HIS CRAP AND HE'S EVEN SUNK SO LOW AS TO HAVE SOCKPUPPET ACCOUNTS.

One poster or another has successfully defeated each and every argument he brings to the table. He is now remaining, claiming I lied about Thomas Jefferson - as if that would change the balance of this discussion. Here is my position:

1) When other posters began discussing this as a conversation rather than a point by point, let's prove everything, I got conversational. I quoted Thomas Jefferson from an unnamed source in an online general conversation.

I really do not want to restart any conversations with THIS idiot about Thomas Jefferson and my quote. But, I cut and pasted the quote as I found it on the Internet:

http://peace2you.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Faith-of-Founding-Fathers1.pdf

If you look a few quotes down, you can see where I got it from. When that troll made a big deal out of my inadvertent faux pas of leaving out the link, I looked up the book from where the quote was obtained and put it in post #552. I DIDN'T LIE AND NOTFOOLEDBYW IS A ROTTEN, FILTHY, STINKING, LIAR. ALL of his posts were responded to honestly and openly. Check his posts... he's quoting me and it's there.


2) NOTFOOLEDBYW seized upon that accusing me of posting a lie; even claiming that I edited my source. I did not. I did, however, look at where my source got their material and I quoted where it could be found. I did not lie

3) Regardless of how that material reads, the bottom line is Thomas Jefferson said he was a Christian and I took him at his word as his early life indicates such. Jefferson states, and it was quoted on this thread, that his life experiences changed his outlook. Nothing has changed what Jefferson said at that point in his life

4) Regardless of how many times founders did or said one thing or another, I look at the bottom line and if over half the posts here are either one man arguing against those points compared to the scores of posts disagreeing with him, there is no point to prove. If this matters to you and you want to wade through who said what, you have each post - minus my own (which is unnecessary since all those people who agreed with me either quoted the relevant parts and / or the post itself. My point here is I did not lie and every time that troll posts, I will simply cut and paste this response (that took some hours to research just for him.)

If he still wants to call me a liar, he can do it to my face. Otherwise, he has been successfully defeated by other posters to the point that nothing I have to say would be relevant anyway. IF there are any other points to be addressed, I will be happy to entertain them, just not by the resident troll. The dumb ass needs to read. This post refutes his account of what happened.. I know because I'm the one who did it. I copied and pasted the fucking quote as it appeared and no amount of political jockeying will change that. It's over dumbass

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION

In closing this thread out, I might as well make the points I was going to make. The consummate troll that destroyed ALL his credibility and pretended he was qualified to judge me wants to now be proven wrong in ways that he had not intended. So, we can summarize over 1000 posts in about thirty six paragraphs. Every time the troll posts, we will start over until all three segments appear and then we can repeat them each and every day until he finds someone that might tolerate him. He wants someone to validate him; I'm satisfied with the facts collected here. They simply need to be put into a summation.

In the course of this thread we found a lot of dishonest people, uneducated people, and many partisan hacks on the Internet. The misinformation was much more prevalent than the correct information. The correct information was spread out, so let us begin once more:

The founders did not want a theocracy. They DID want a constitutional Republic dedicated to the principles of Liberty. The First Amendment states:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

The Congress of the United States is NOT the several states. Congress is not the legislatures in the states. Congress is not the direct voice of the citizenry. The fact that every state constitution did have a reference to Christianity before, during and after the ratification of the United States Constitution should signal to any honest observer of history that Christians would not have signed onto any form of government that would marginalize the cultural, ethnic, and national ties that bound us together as a people. That alone makes zero sense.

There was no need to create a theocracy in America because the people rejected the idea of a King. They wanted religious Liberty, but at the same time, they did not want to alter their identity, as a people and they could not fathom a nation without their God. Modern researchers look at the founding documents and the language of the day, falsely proclaiming that there are no references to our Christian identity therein. Really? Let us start with the Declaration of Independence: We have a reference to a "Nature's God," and a "Creator" in the first two paragraphs. That document ends by talking about the "Supreme Judge of the world" AND then the signatories relied on a "firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence." I would submit to you that, based on the language used in those times, that this is in reference to a Christian God. This is confirmed by the language used in John Winthrop's sermon "A Model of Christian Charity" which was referenced in the first post on this thread. Therein, Winthrop used the following language:

"GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence
...glory of his Creator
... Law of Nature"

These are used in the first two pages of the sermon and not one, single, solitary reference to Jesus Christ. Our forefathers did not lace every sentence with HIS holy name just to wear their religion on their sleeves. We check the sermons of the time period and find that the language used in the Declaration of Independence was consistent with the language used to express a belief in a Christian God. AND there is NO WAY you avoid that reliance on "Divine Providence." That is a reference to the divinity. Period.

The next founding document associated with the founding is the 1783 Treaty of Paris. That treaty ended the American Revolutionary War. The signatories to that legal document are bound thereby. Let us see some of its language:

"In the name of the most holy and undivided Trinity.

It having pleased the Divine Providence to dispose the Hearts of the most Serene and most Potent Prince George the Third, by the Grace of God, King of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, Duke of Brunswick and Lunebourg, Arch- Treasurer and Prince Elector of the Holy Roman Empire etc."

And it ends

"Done at Paris, this third day of September in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-three.

D. HARTLEY
JOHN ADAMS
B. FRANKLIN
JOHN JAY"

It is the argument of uneducated men that our forefathers had such an aversion to Christianity that they wanted a non-religious people. Yet these alleged secularists, deists, theists, atheists, and other alleged non-believers signed their names to legal documents acknowledging a Christian God.

Part 2 of this series of posts to follow

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION II

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

There is no established religion, but the values of Christians are very well represented in that document. The most glaring example is the ":Sunday exception rule" :

"If any Bill shall not be returned by the President within ten Days (Sundays excepted) after it shall have been presented to him, the Same shall be a law, in like Manner as if he had signed it . . . " Article I Section 7

Bring this one up and you get a long harangue about the debates that centered on this with all kinds of theories parading as logic, but just because Masons, secularists, and even American Indian influences were present in the Constitutional Convention, the ONLY thing that matters is the final product.

And, again, ALL of the signatories signed their name to a legal document (the Constitution) acknowledging a Christian God:

"done in Convention by the Unanimous Consent of the States present the Seventeenth Day of September in the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven and of the Independance of the United States of America the Twelfth..."

Admittedly, the intent would be murky except for the fact that the presidents who were founders appointed people to the United States Supreme Court before the American Bar Association was founded in 1875. Sooo... those Justices were were more in sync with the president than they are even today.

John Jay, the FIRST Justice ever appointed (1789) had this to say:

“Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers.” Oct. 12, 1816, in a statement, The Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry Johnston, America's God and Country, William Federer, p.318

Source: Quotation by John Jay

There will be many more entries until I finish and put this all in one spot on this thread. The troll be damned.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION IV

In this summation of the founding of America as a Christian nation, we've been looking at the United States Supreme Court Justices. We covered the Chief Justices that the founders / framers appointed and now I'm starting with some of those that Washington appointed. The first one, William Cushing provides a counter balance to Jefferson, who was just one founder. According to Wikipedia about Cushing:

" He generally held a nationalist view typically in line with the views of the Federalist Party, and often disagreed with Thomas Jefferson's Democratic-Republicans."

William Cushing - Wikipedia

I found little about Cushing save of this in a very brief look into his background:

"American jurist who was the first appointee to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Cushing graduated from Harvard in 1751"

William Cushing | United States jurist

Harvard was founded as a Christian college. According to Wikipedia:

"The early motto of Harvard was Veritas Christo et Ecclesiae, meaning "Truth for Christ and the Church". In the early classes, half the graduates became ministers (though by the 1760s the proportion was down to 15%) and ten of Harvard's first twelve presidents were ministers. Systematic theological instruction was inaugurated in 1721 and by 1827 Harvard became a nucleus of theological teaching in New England"

History of Harvard University - Wikipedia

Safe to say Cushing was influenced by Christianity.

James Wilson, another Washington Supreme Court appointee:

"He changed his practicing religion from Presbyterian to Episcopalian"and in 1779 became the advocate general for France in America.

James Wilson | The Society of the Descendants of the Signers of the Declaration of Independence

Although John Blair received a Christian education, his grand uncle being the founder of William and Mary College, Blair was a Freemason, so score one for the "Deists."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Blair_Jr.

As we make this journey, we aren't so much concerned as to who was what so much as we are concerned with the final product. What did America become?

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION V


I'm still working to show WHO the founders / framers nominated to the United States Supreme Court. And very quickly, picking back up with Washington, who unfortunately was a Freemason (so not very objective on some spiritual matters), he nonetheless nominated James Iredell who is described as:

"The grandson of a clergyman, he was a devout Anglican throughout his life and his writings display an interest in spirituality and metaphysics beyond a simple attachment to organized religion."

James Iredell - Wikipedia

Thomas Johnson was only on the job 163 days so that is insignificant.

William Paterson, another Washington appointee said:

“Religion and morality...{are} necessary to good government, good order, and good laws.” (Maeva Marcus. The Documentary History of the Supreme Court of the United States 1789-1800. New York: Columbia University Press. 1988. Vol III pg 436)
Secondary Source: http://camphillchurch.org/publication_files/the-coping-christian---pt-4.pdf

Samuel Chase (the last of Washington's Supreme Court Justices) was born April 17, 1741, the son of Anglican clergyman Rev. Thomas Chase, and was home-schooled till age 18.

... he founded a Maryland chapter of the Sons of Liberty to protest The Stamp Act of 1765 and the British Government's usurpation of citizen's rights. He was also a signer of the Declaration of Independence.

Justice Samuel Chase rendered the court's decision in the Maryland Supreme Court case of Runkel v. Winemiller, 1799:

" Religion is of general and public concern, and on its support depend, in great measure, the peace and good order of government, the safety and happiness of the people.

By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion;

and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing, and are equally entitled to protection in their religious liberty."

Supreme Court Justice Samuel Chase, 1799, "the Christian religion is the established religion, and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed upon the same equal footing..."

So, Maryland was officially declared Christian - seems the states were not quite familiar with that so - called "separation of church and state" at the STATE level.

Ant that was Washington's court nominees. Let's look at another president's nominees in my next installment.

 

[BreezeWood]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

.

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

It would be good if Porter Rockwell could explain why he thinks neutrality on religion marginalizes the dominant religion.

We are not done.

all of antiquity flourished long before the 4th century christian bible - began the ages of persecution and victimization of the innocent. misconstruing the events of the 1st century. why the founders in their wisdom separated religion from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

rockwell needs their 4th century christianity to be embedded in society's constitution as its fallacies are unable to survive an enlightened, free society (jefferson) the framers were successfully able to establish - freedom from the dogmas of any religion especially the three desert religions that have abandoned the prescribed religion of antiquity and the reason for their anxiety against open, unhindered religious affiliation.

Quit pretending, sockpuppet.

.

Quit pretending, sockpuppet.

pretending what ... that anyone is listening to you, this country is founded as a christian nation.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AMERICA WAS FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION III

As we continue on, I find that this may be a daily ritual until the troll is buried under a mountain of truth whilst he makes his case predicated on the words of a single founder - a conflicted man that contradicted his own writings, depending upon where he stood at any given moment.

We have examined the three most important documents: The Declaration of Independence, The Treaty of Paris 1783 that ended the American Revolutionary War and the Constitution, noting the Christian influence in each of these documents. We created a nation of Christians with Christian values as our measuring rod and a legal system that used biblical principles to differentiate right from wrong; good from evil; etc.

I also pointed out that the presidents that we count as founding fathers nominated men to the United States Supreme Court to interpret the law. the only thing more authoritative than their opinions about the law were actual court rulings. So, until we reach the time when an actual ruling is made, their opinions are more authoritative than even select quotes from the founders since they left the United States Supreme Court in charge of interpreting what the Constitution means. I've quoted the first United States Supreme Court Justice ever appointed. Let's do a couple more:

John Rutledge would be the second person to be nominated, but he doesn't count as he was not confirmed by the Senate. Then came Oliver Ellsworth. According to Wikipedia:

"Once the Judiciary Act was adopted by the Senate, Ellsworth sponsored the Senate's acceptance of the Bill of Rights promoted by Madison in the House of Representatives. Significantly, Madison sponsored the Judiciary Act in the House at the same time. Combined, the Judiciary Act and Bill of Rights gave the Constitution the "teeth" that had been missing in the Articles of Confederation. Judicial Review guaranteed the federal government's sovereignty, whereas the Bill of Rights guaranteed the protection of states and citizens from the misuse of this sovereignty by the federal government.

...However, with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment in 1865, seventy-five years later, the Bill of Rights could be brought to bear at all levels of government as interpreted by the judiciary with final appeal to the Supreme Court. Needless to say, this had not been the original intention of either Madison or Ellsworth.

Oliver Ellsworth - Wikipedia

This is important to note because before the illegal ratification of the 14th Amendment, many states required office holders to take an oath that they believed in the Christian faith. Since it was an oath and NOT a test, this was constitutional and the states remained culturally Christian; hence, we were a Christian nation.

The Fourth Chief Justice, nominated by John Adams was the very articulate John Marshall. He is the Justice who once said that "the power to tax is the power to destroy." He also said that "a legislative act contrary to the Constitution is not law." The quote I'm most impressed with relative to this conversation is:

“What are the maxims of Democracy? A strict observance of justice and public faith, and a steady adherence to virtue.”

Source: Top 30 quotes of JOHN MARSHALL famous quotes and sayings | inspringquotes.us

John Marshall, appointed by founder and framer John Adams had this to say:


"No person, I believe, questions the importance of religion to the happiness of man even during his existence in this world. It has at all times employed his most serious meditation, and had a decided influence on his conduct.

The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified. It would be strange, indeed, if with such a people, our institutions did not presuppose Christianity, and did not often refer to it, and exhibit relations with it."

John Marshall: The American population is entirely Christian, and with us, Christianity and Religion are identified » Sons of Liberty Media

I'm an anti-federalist, but there is no doubt that Marshall understood that, as a people, the United States IS a Christian nation.

We are not done.

.

Uninformed writers, even a few Christians claim there is no Christian influence in the Constitution of the United States. Because the document does not call for a theocracy; because it is not laced with affirmations regarding Jesus Christ, the see it as being religion neutral. They are either ignorant or dishonest. The document is a reflection of the people it represented.

It would be good if Porter Rockwell could explain why he thinks neutrality on religion marginalizes the dominant religion.

We are not done.

all of antiquity flourished long before the 4th century christian bible - began the ages of persecution and victimization of the innocent. misconstruing the events of the 1st century. why the founders in their wisdom separated religion from life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

rockwell needs their 4th century christianity to be embedded in society's constitution as its fallacies are unable to survive an enlightened, free society (jefferson) the framers were successfully able to establish - freedom from the dogmas of any religion especially the three desert religions that have abandoned the prescribed religion of antiquity and the reason for their anxiety against open, unhindered religious affiliation.

Quit pretending, sockpuppet.

.

Quit pretending, sockpuppet.

pretending what ... that anyone is listening to you, this country is founded as a christian nation.

You're here. That is all that matters. As long as you're here, you are not infecting the rest of this board with troll posts. You need me to validate your presence here. Glad to do it. IF someone even thinks about starting another thread, they will be dissuaded. You cannot overcome the truth.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

BEFORE I do any more posts, the board troll seeks validation here.

The board troll is convinced he holds a monopoly on the truth and he spends every day trying to condemn me and call me names. Yet throughout the course of this 1185 + post thread...

NOBODY SUPPORTS NOTFOOLEDBYW'S ERRONEOUS CONCLUSIONS NOR HIS PATHETIC NAME CALLING - NOBODY

By contrast, I'd like to review a few things that have been said to NOTFOOLEDBYW:

In post # 130 NOTFOOLEDBYW was told by another poster:

"No, they didn't. They sought to avoid an Established Church.
THat you try to spin that as "rejection of Religion" is not reasonable."

In post # 134, NOTFOOLEDBYW was told:

"Oh, man I see how this is going. The libs know that they cannot refute the OP, so they will just bog the thread down in insanely boring historical trivia and be insulting assholes until they get the thread locked.

ON some level, they all know that America is a Christian nation, and that they cannot hope to refute that point, but they can't admit it, nor do they even want to see it discussed."

In post # 175 NOTFOOLEDBYW was admonished:

"YOu think that is what he is trying to say? How interesting. YOu happen to think that the person you disagree with is motivated by "blah, blah, blah, evul"?

What a shock.

Anyhow, nothing of that, contradicts his assertion. It is all irrelevant to the intentions of the Founders.

YOu are, as we all expected, unable to even address the topic, but still here to try to fill the thread with garbage in order to suppress any real debate, until one of you lib trolls can get the thread locked.
That is how you libs debate now. Because as a group, you know that you cannot really win debates, because the positions you push, are actually bad if not actively evil"

Over a thousand posts later and the troll is STILL trying the same tactic that has not gotten him ANY support.

I've never seen this much foolishness or stupidity in my life. But, it is helping me to get all the information into one place so that this turd will never be able to have this argument on this board ever again without being made a fool of.

He rests his case on Thomas Jefferson with a few selected quotes, totally ignoring the facts that do not support his conclusion.

According to Wikipedia:

"Jefferson was raised in the Church of England at a time when it was the established church in Virginia and only denomination funded by Virginia tax money. Before the Revolution, parishes were units of local government, and Jefferson served as a vestryman, a lay administrative position in his local parish. Office-holding qualifications at all levels—including the Virginia House of Burgesses, to which Jefferson was elected in 1769—required affiliation with the current state religion and a commitment that one would neither express dissent nor do anything that did not conform to church doctrine. Jefferson counted clergy among his friends, and he contributed financially to the Anglican Church he attended regularly."

Religious views of Thomas Jefferson - Wikipedia

Here was a man that spent his own money to make sure that every home in America that could not afford a Bible had one at Jefferson's expense... and those Bibles contained the things that Jefferson would go on to renounce at another point in his life - only to start accepting that which he rejected toward the end of his life. NOTFOOLEDBYW has not proven a damn thing except that he's an idiot that wants to follow me around every day like a dog in heat.

But, as long as he's chasing me, he's not infecting the rest of this board with his wasteful and idiotic stupidity. He now has an audience of ONE. And he cannot convince me that his anti-Christ ideology is remotely right. Hell I don't even read his posts any more. I see maybe the first or last sentence, and post all around it so that nobody else will pay attention to this thread. Just living in the troll's head, rent free.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

AND THEN THERE WERE NONE

We started this thread almost a month ago on 13 January 2020. The premise for this thread is that America was FOUNDED as a Christian nation. Although I started this thread, one poster, NOTFOOLEDBYW, decided he would co-opt, derail and run this thread. He failed to get any support. If you are dedicated to finding the truth, every objection that NOTFOOLEDBYW has been refuted. He may have posted a lot of bluster, but he did not stop the truth.

While I never got to explain exactly what is meant by FOUNDED as a Christian nation, we got to expose the secularists, deists, humanists, atheists, and others who try to silence the truth and expose them for who and what they are.

America was founded as a Christian nation. Some consider the genesis of the founding as synonymous with the Declaration of Independence. That is inaccurate. Our nation had over 150 years of development behind it before the Declaration of Independence was penned. We had become our own people. And, America was, by and large, Christian. Culturally, the people were Christian. Of this there is no substantial denial. The men who signed their names to the Declaration of Independence, on the day they signed that document, acknowledged a Christian God. This is beyond dispute.

Each of the signatories signed that document "with a firm reliance on Divine Providence" which was synonymous with a Christian God. As evidence of this, I go back to my original post (Post # 1.) John Winthrop, a Protestant, gave a sermon in the language of those times. Winthrop's sermon begins with "GOD ALMIGHTY in His most holy and wise providence" and Winthrop uses He and His without any references to Jesus Christ. On the very first page of the sermon, this sentence jumps out: "From hence it appears plainly that no man is made more honorable than another or more wealthy etc., out of any particular and singular respect to himself, but for the glory of his Creator and the common good of the creature..." and by page 2 of Winthrop's sermon we find this: "Honor the Lord with thy riches," etc. --- All men being thus (by divine providence)" showing, unequivocally that when the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence were fully cognizant that when they pledged their Lives, Fortunes and sacred Honor, it was before a Christian God. Divine Providence is an acknowledgment of the Trinity.

While these men did not create a theocracy, the first contribution that they made was a commitment to Liberty. They understood Liberty from a Christian concept. The fact that so many meetings took place in homes, churches, and in barns for years prior to the Declaration of Independence and had a difficult time separating from the rule of King George, especially reconciling Independence with the admonitions in Romans 13 fill many pages of historical texts.

In the end, the founders adopted the common law the colonists and founders came here with. Its basis is Christianity. When we pass a statute, we then interpret that statute based upon a line of reasoning. That reasoning is predicated upon how we handled previous cases. Since we had no starting point on legal reasoning - we used the reasoning of the English law... which was based on a Christian perspective. Consequently, our concept of right and wrong; good and bad; evil versus acceptable stem from a Christian perspective. So, the first contribution of the Christians to our form of government is the commitment to Liberty and the second contribution would be the common law.

But, due to the ego of one man, our incessant troll, with a holier than thou attitude, (AND NOT ONE POSTER SUPPORTED HIS ERRONEOUS OPINIONS) we were prevented from having this discussion. While there may be no more new material being discussed on this thread, I will continue to oppose this childish troll because he CAN be defeated. He cannot silence the truth forever.

Addendum: The sockpuppet accounts are damnable. All one has to do is see WHEN the sockpuppet begins posting and what they were posting about. And, yes, the constant attempts to derail this thread and make this personal DID prevent a credible and civil discussion of the OP - (the first post) which has not been addressed. And if the board troll, under any of his assumed names, is posting off topic attacks every day, it detracts from the OP and discourages posters from addressing the real issue

 

[NotfooledbyW]

#1200 reply to #513.

I have stated many many times that America is not now a Christian nation.

Going by the majority, America is still a Christian country.

But Porter Rockwell obnoxiously regards today’s America to be “a morally bankrupt third world cesspool barely fit to take a dump in.”

• The proportion of US adults who describe themselves as Christian has fallen to two-thirds, a drop of 12 percentage points over the past decade, according to data from the Pew Research Center. https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/17/americans-less-christian-religion-survey-p

In think it’s quite shitty for a Christian to talk this way about a 2/3 majority Christian nation,
I’ll never understand why he said this.

it makes no sense at all and does not enhance his argument.