America was FOUNDED on secession

[Katzndogz]

Russia used to be the Soviet Union. No one thought it would fall apart either. It too had a Constitution prohibiting secession.

When a group of people have interests that are so divergent that they cannot find any ground to co-exist that nation will not stand. It doesn't matter which one it is.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>


So I've got a question...


If a State can secede from the Union.

Can a County secede from the Union?

Can a County secede from a State?

Can a County secede from a State and the Union?

Can a Town secede from a County?

Can a Town secede from a State?

Can a Town secede from a County, State and Union?

Can a Town secede from the Union but remain in a County, State, or Union (or selected entities like County, but not remain in the State or the Union)?

Can an individual landowner secede from a Town?

Can an individual landowner secede from a County?

Can an individual landowner secede from a State?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Town, County, State, and Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from selected parts like secede from the town, remain in the County and State, but secede from the Union?​

If Yes, then anyone can can secede from anything, right?

If No, they can't secede, then why is that different?



>>>>

 

[MuadDib]

>


So I've got a question...


If a State can secede from the Union.

Can a County secede from the Union?

Can a County secede from a State?

Can a County secede from a State and the Union?

Can a Town secede from a County?

Can a Town secede from a State?

Can a Town secede from a County, State and Union?

Can a Town secede from the Union but remain in a County, State, or Union (or selected entities like County, but not remain in the State or the Union)?

Can an individual landowner secede from a Town?

Can an individual landowner secede from a County?

Can an individual landowner secede from a State?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Town, County, State, and Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from selected parts like secede from the town, remain in the County and State, but secede from the Union?​

If Yes, then anyone can can secede from anything, right?

If No, they can't secede, then why is that different?



>>>>

Local governments annex properties and areas virtually all the time. Some counties in southern West Virginia have been talking for years about seceding to rejoin Virginia. I think some counties in California have been considering secession.

As to an individual property owner, you'd have to have a passport to leave your property and you'd probably lose all utilities too. A landowner is a different thing than an elected representative government, so that's a different matter entirely.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Its amazing this debate has gone on so long when the answers are clear.

• What is the question? There are really two. 1) Can a state legally secede from the union, under the laws of the United States, without consent of the United States? 2) Does a state have an inherent right to secede from the union under the laws of nature?
• 1) The answer the the first is simple. NO. The 1896 SCOTUS ruling in Texas v White makes this abundantly clear. An individual state may not secede without consent from the United States. The reasoning is that the Articles of Confederation established union in perpetuity. The Constitution is a continuation and strengthening of that union. In fact, the convention which convened to write the Constitution was convened under the Articles, and the exact dates on which the new government began was set by the legislative body that the Articles had established.
• 2) The answer to the second question is far more complex and really comes down to a matter of opinion. In my opinion, ultimately, the people must consent to be governed, and if the people of state cannot work out their differences with the United States, and they are willing both to lay waste to human life and property of those who oppose them and to have waste laid to their own human life and property, then they have the moral right to secede. The key subjective issue here is at what point is "cannot work out their differences" satisfied? A state has a moral obligation - indeed any governed people does - to seek non-violent, legal remedies first - then non-violent, illegal remedies second. Violent remedy is only to be used as a last resort, when no other remedy is possible. At what point this is, is largely a matter of opinion.

EDIT- I should add that the non-violent legal option is often easily exhausted as a possible choice, and the non-violent illegal option is the practical first remedy to seek, for example,in totalitarian Communist regimes.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

>


So I've got a question...


If a State can secede from the Union.

Can a County secede from the Union?

Can a County secede from a State?

Can a County secede from a State and the Union?

Can a Town secede from a County?

Can a Town secede from a State?

Can a Town secede from a County, State and Union?

Can a Town secede from the Union but remain in a County, State, or Union (or selected entities like County, but not remain in the State or the Union)?

Can an individual landowner secede from a Town?

Can an individual landowner secede from a County?

Can an individual landowner secede from a State?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Town, County, State, and Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from selected parts like secede from the town, remain in the County and State, but secede from the Union?​

If Yes, then anyone can can secede from anything, right?

If No, they can't secede, then why is that different?



>>>>

Local governments annex properties and areas virtually all the time. Some counties in southern West Virginia have been talking for years about seceding to rejoin Virginia. I think some counties in California have been considering secession.

As to an individual property owner, you'd have to have a passport to leave your property and you'd probably lose all utilities too. A landowner is a different thing than an elected representative government, so that's a different matter entirely.

Part of a state may not form another state without the consent of the state and the United States. Says as much in the Constitution.

 

[WorldWatcher]

>


So I've got a question...


If a State can secede from the Union.

Can a County secede from the Union?

Can a County secede from a State?

Can a County secede from a State and the Union?

Can a Town secede from a County?

Can a Town secede from a State?

Can a Town secede from a County, State and Union?

Can a Town secede from the Union but remain in a County, State, or Union (or selected entities like County, but not remain in the State or the Union)?

Can an individual landowner secede from a Town?

Can an individual landowner secede from a County?

Can an individual landowner secede from a State?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from the Town, County, State, and Union?

Can an individual landowner secede from selected parts like secede from the town, remain in the County and State, but secede from the Union?​

If Yes, then anyone can can secede from anything, right?

If No, they can't secede, then why is that different?



>>>>

Local governments annex properties and areas virtually all the time. Some counties in southern West Virginia have been talking for years about seceding to rejoin Virginia. I think some counties in California have been considering secession.

That doesn't address the questions.

So no counties have seceded from their state.

As to an individual property owner, you'd have to have a passport to leave your property and you'd probably lose all utilities too. A landowner is a different thing than an elected representative government, so that's a different matter entirely.

No a problem, I've got a generator, give me 10-minutes and I'll make a passport for myself.

And no, an individual landowner is not different than a Town, County, or State. If the right of secession exists, than that right would exist down to the individual landowner.

If a State doesn't like the laws of the Union and can secede, then if a county doesn't like some laws they can secede. If a Town doesn't like some laws, they can secede. If a landowner doesn't like some laws they can secede. Either a right of secession exists to revolt against the established government or it doesn't.



>>>>

 

[MuadDib]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

 

[JWBooth]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

1869
Then that would be the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

1869
Then that would be the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

 

[Katzndogz]

Sounds like a partition, not a secession. Like Southern California would rather be its own state, and West Washington would like to be separate from East Washington.

 

[JWBooth]

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

1869
Then that would be the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

 

[MuadDib]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

Try again. The Wheeling Convention was not the duly elected or restored government of Virginia.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

1869
Then that would be the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was not the occupation government, you moron. The members of the secessionist government of Virginia vacated their seats in the legally recognized government of Virginia when they declared secession. The Restored Government of Virginia was chosen by the people of Virginia in areas not in rebellion, and was the legally recognized government of Virginia during the Civil War - EVEN BEFORE OCCUPATION.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

OooPooPahDoo by your definition, West Virginia is an illegal state and has to rejoin with Virginia. Lincoln allowed West Virginians to form a provisional government and secede from Virginia at the Wheeling Convention. The Wheeling Convention delegates were not the duly elected legislature of Virginia. Lincoln knew it too and jumped through a bunch of hoops to justify his actions. When someone later pointed out to him that he was opposed to secession and asked him how he could do that, he basically said that secession for the Union was good, but secession against the Union was bad.

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

Try again. The Wheeling Convention was not the duly elected or restored government of Virginia.

How were they not duly elected?

 

[MuadDib]

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was not the occupation government, you moron. The members of the secessionist government of Virginia vacated their seats in the legally recognized government of Virginia when they declared secession. The Restored Government of Virginia was chosen by the people of Virginia in areas not in rebellion, and was the legally recognized government of Virginia during the Civil War - EVEN BEFORE OCCUPATION.

The restored government WAS the occupation government, dumbass! The legally elected governor and House of Delegates were meeting in Richmond, not Wheeling.

 

[MuadDib]

The Restored Government of Virginia approved of West Virginia's admission as a separate state, and Virginia re-affirmed its approval in 1869.

So you're full of shit.

Try again. The Wheeling Convention was not the duly elected or restored government of Virginia.

How were they not duly elected?

Did all of Virginia elect the delegates to Wheeling or just those in western Virginia?

 

[JWBooth]

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was not the occupation government, you moron. The members of the secessionist government of Virginia vacated their seats in the legally recognized government of Virginia when they declared secession. The Restored Government of Virginia was chosen by the people of Virginia in areas not in rebellion, and was the legally recognized government of Virginia during the Civil War - EVEN BEFORE OCCUPATION.

Well dipshit, the actual voters of Virginia recognized the people they elected, not the installed government or some self appointed rump group hanging out across the Potomac or the Blue Ridge for the duration. Said rump group had no authority granted to them by the people of Virginia and as such were invalid.
The "Restored Government of Virginia" was about as valid as distant relatives of the Romanovs during Stalin's term of office.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was not the occupation government, you moron. The members of the secessionist government of Virginia vacated their seats in the legally recognized government of Virginia when they declared secession. The Restored Government of Virginia was chosen by the people of Virginia in areas not in rebellion, and was the legally recognized government of Virginia during the Civil War - EVEN BEFORE OCCUPATION.

The restored government WAS the occupation government, dumbass! The legally elected governor and House of Delegates were meeting in Richmond, not Wheeling.

You can't simultaneously claim to not be a part of the United States AND be the legally recognized state government of a state in the United States, that should be obvious, moron. The Virginia legislature ABDICATED its authority as Virginia's state government within the United States when it seceded!

 

[TheGreatGatsby]

The Restored Government of Virginia was the legal government of Virginia during the Civil War, and that government consented to West Virginia's withdrawal.

Virginia merely re-affirmed its decision in its 1869 Constitution.

Right, the installed, occupation Government of Virginia.

The Restored Government of Virginia was not the occupation government, you moron. The members of the secessionist government of Virginia vacated their seats in the legally recognized government of Virginia when they declared secession. The Restored Government of Virginia was chosen by the people of Virginia in areas not in rebellion, and was the legally recognized government of Virginia during the Civil War - EVEN BEFORE OCCUPATION.

Oh. You mean a puppet govt. did that after the fact. The fact is that the southern states had to meet a bunch of conditions to get all of their political rights back.