Another Anti Gun Study Uses Gangs To Boost Numbers...

[2aguy]

Ten times as many people (per capita) die of gun shot wounds in the US than in any other developed nation.

Yes, and far more people are saved by guns than are killed by guns...

gun murders each year...10-12 thousand....mostly from inner city gangs

lives saved by guns and crimes stopped by guns each year...2.5 million ( as found in one of the most accurate studies on gun violence by Dr. Gary Kleck...keeping in mind that there are at least 19 separate studies conducted over 40 years, of guns used for self defense, and the lowest number on the gun studies is 500,000 and that comes from the obama CDC study in 2013 while most other studies put the lowest number at 760,000 times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime)

Soooo 10-12,000 gun murders a year vs. 760,000 times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime...

You tell me...which number is bigger....?

 

[2aguy]

That is where these discussions begin and end, and until the pro-gun lobby start to accept that only the prevalence of guns in society can entirely explain this fact, the discussions really are of very little merit.

Most gun deaths are suicides....so explain to me if guns are the problem...why does Japan have twice the suicide rate than the United States when they have absolute gun control?

 

[zeke]

That is where these discussions begin and end, and until the pro-gun lobby start to accept that only the prevalence of guns in society can entirely explain this fact, the discussions really are of very little merit.

Most gun deaths are suicides....so explain to me if guns are the problem...why does Japan have twice the suicide rate than the United States when they have absolute gun control?

Is it painful to be so stupid?

In case you missed it, the Japanese are not Christians. Christians have a problem with killing yourself. Think it is against the laws of God.

Some Japanese think and have thought this way a long time, that suicide is an honorable way to end your life.

Think that has ANY bearing on suicide rates? Knowing you, probably not.

Life ain't all about guns in other countries. Like it is with you.

 

[2aguy]

Is it painful to be so stupid?

Please tell us...is it...?

Think that has ANY bearing on suicide rates? Knowing you, probably not.

as you must be suffering from the pain of being stupid...it has all the bearing on suicide...culture...not guns...since they have absolute gun control and still have a higher suicide rate...take some aspirin for the pain...

 

[zeke]

Is it painful to be so stupid?

Please tell us...is it...?

Think that has ANY bearing on suicide rates? Knowing you, probably not.

as you must be suffering from the pain of being stupid...it has all the bearing on suicide...culture...not guns...since they have absolute gun control and still have a higher suicide rate...take some aspirin for the pain...

You are dumb dumb dumb. IF culture has a bearing on suicide and it does, then why in the fuck do people like you keep trying to prove some bullshit point by bringing up Japan over and over.

Just what the fuck is it that you are trying to "prove"?

That one culture (Japan) thinks ritual suicide is ok and the other culture (USA) still commits suicide with guns on a regular basis. Even though the culture thinks it a sin against God.

We already knew that you stupid shit.

 

[2aguy]

IF culture has a bearing on suicide and it does, then why in the fuck do people like you keep trying to prove some bullshit point by bringing up Japan over and over.

Because Japan is constantly brought up as an example of why gun control works...vs. the truth that it is their legal system and culture that reduces their violent crimes...don't look at me...blame the gun grabbers who like police states to deal with their crime problems....

We already knew that you stupid shit.

Is it at all possible for you to discuss this rationally...without name calling...

 

[zeke]

IF culture has a bearing on suicide and it does, then why in the fuck do people like you keep trying to prove some bullshit point by bringing up Japan over and over.

Because Japan is constantly brought up as an example of why gun control works...vs. the truth that it is their legal system and culture that reduces their violent crimes...don't look at me...blame the gun grabbers who like police states to deal with their crime problems....

We already knew that you stupid shit.

Is it at all possible for you to discuss this rationally...without name calling...

Rationally discuss WHAT? That you are a gun nutter extraordinaire? Nothing to "discuss" about that. It's a fact.

No one has taken a single gun away from you nor has anyone taken away your "freedom". No matter what you tell yourself. Unless you are a criminal. You a criminal? Or just a young kid?

 

[2aguy]

No one has taken a single gun away from you nor has anyone taken away your "freedom".

So I can buy an AR-15 in California...or a 30 round magazine...or even the pistol I have that has "Not Legal In California" written on the box...you don't know what you are talking about...

 

[JoeB131]

You sell a gun to a mass shooter, you go away for a very long time.

Typical liberal logic...as a gun dealer you jump through all the gun grabber hoops they have created...you do the background check...it comes back okay...you sell the product and when the system the gun grabbers bitched and moaned about in their attempt to inconvenience law abiding gun owners fails to do what the gun grabbers want it to...and have been told that it won't do anything to stop crime or mass shooters...you want to put the gun dealer in jail for something they had no control over....

This is why I can't stand people on the left....

This is a lynching.

Democrats are good at that...just ask the newly freed slaves after the republicans forced the democrats to end slavery....

Your argument would be acceptable if the Gun Industry was sincerely attempting to keep the wrong people from getting guns.

Instead of trying to find all sorts of loopholes like the gun show loophole and private seller loopholes and straw buyers and all the other things they do to get guns into the hands of the bad guys.

Now, if after an incident like Newton the gun industry said, "Hey, let's see what we can do to keep this from happening again!", I might be inclined to cut them some slack.

Instead, they rushed to Washington and intimidated the politicians from doing ANYTHING.

 

[JoeB131]

Ten times as many people (per capita) die of gun shot wounds in the US than in any other developed nation.

Yes, and far more people are saved by guns than are killed by guns...

gun murders each year...10-12 thousand....mostly from inner city gangs

lives saved by guns and crimes stopped by guns each year...2.5 million ( as found in one of the most accurate studies on gun violence by Dr. Gary Kleck...keeping in mind that there are at least 19 separate studies conducted over 40 years, of guns used for self defense, and the lowest number on the gun studies is 500,000 and that comes from the obama CDC study in 2013 while most other studies put the lowest number at 760,000 times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime)

Soooo 10-12,000 gun murders a year vs. 760,000 times guns are used to save lives and stop violent crime...

You tell me...which number is bigger....?

Kleck's study is bullshit.

NRA s Media Misinformation Series Pushes Systemically False Information About Gun Violence Blog Media Matters for America

The 2.5 million figure cited by Edwards, which comes from the 1995 research of criminologist Gary Kleck, was debunked over a decade ago and has been labeled "an enormous overestimate" by Harvard Injury Control Research Center Director David Hemenway. Indeed, Dr. Hemenway's analysis of Kleck's data proves the 2.5 million figure to be a mathematical impossibility. In a 1997 paper, Hemenway explained that:

n 34% of the times a gun was used for self-defense, the offender was allegedly committing a burglary. In other words, guns were reportedly used by defenders for self-defense in approximately 845,000 burglaries. From sophisticated victimization surveys, however, we know that there were fewer than 6 million burglaries in the year of the survey and in only 22% of those cases was someone certainly at home (1.3 million burglaries). Since only 42% of U.S. households own firearms, and since victims in two thirds of the occupied dwellings were asleep, the 2.5 million figure requires us to believe that burglary victims use their guns in self-defense more than 100% of the time. [emphasis added]

 

[2aguy]

Your argument would be acceptable if the Gun Industry was sincerely attempting to keep the wrong people from getting guns.

They do... I believe they accept the NICS check system...other than that, no other gun law will stop gun crime or mass shooters...the gun show loophole does not exist...any gun dealer at a gun show must do the federal background check...and private sellers...it is against the law to sell a gun to a felon...straw buyers...again...it is against the law to buy a gun for a felon...

We have laws for all of the things you point out...but the criminals ignore them...how do you get criminals to comply with the laws you want?

 

[2aguy]

Hemenway is a gun grabber...funny...he disputes Kleck...but what about the other 19 seperate gun studies conducted over a 40 year period which confirms Kleck's numbers...I'll repeat them...

Okay...again...here are all the studies that actually give numbers for guns used to save lives and stop crimes taken from the table I provided from guncite.com...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Field...1976....3,052,717

Bordua...1977...1,414,544

DMIa 1978...2,141,512

DMIb...1978...1,098,409

Hart...1981...1.797,461

Ohio...1982...771,043

Mauser...1990...1,487,342

Gallup...1991...777,153

Gallup...1993...1,621,377

L.A. TIMES...1994...3,609,682

Tarrance... 1994... 764,036

DEPT. OF JUSTICE...1994...1.5 million
(Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text,PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.)

Lawerence Southwich Jr. 400,000 fewer violent crimes and at least 800,000 violent crimes deterred..
.(Lawrence Southwick, Jr.,Guns and Justifiable Homicide: Deterrence and Defense-concludes there are at least 400,000 "fewer violent crimes due to civilian self-defense use of guns" and at least "800,000 violent crimes are deterred each year because of gun ownership and use by civilians.")

Obama's CDC...

from slate.com an article on CDC obama's era...500-3 million defensive gun uses

Handguns suicides mass shootings deaths and self-defense Findings from a research report on gun violence.

7. Guns are used for self-defense often and effectively. “Almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year … in the context of about 300,000 violent crimes involving firearms in 2008,” says the report. The three million figure is probably high, “based on an extrapolation from a small number of responses taken from more than 19 national surveys.”

"Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year."
As shown in the previous footnote, this study did not use a nationally representative population. To correct for this, Just Facts used the following equation:

As Kleck points out in his paper...

All of the eleven surveys yielded results that implied over 700,000 uses per year. None of the surveys implied estimates even remotely like the 65,000 to 82,000 figures derived from the NCVS. To date, there has been no confirmation of even the most approximate sort of the NCVS estimates. Indeed, no survey has ever yielded an estimate which is of the same magnitude as those derived from the NCVS.​

 

[JoeB131]

Your argument would be acceptable if the Gun Industry was sincerely attempting to keep the wrong people from getting guns.

They do... I believe they accept the NICS check system...other than that, no other gun law will stop gun crime or mass shooters...the gun show loophole does not exist...any gun dealer at a gun show must do the federal background check...and private sellers...it is against the law to sell a gun to a felon...straw buyers...again...it is against the law to buy a gun for a felon...

We have laws for all of the things you point out...but the criminals ignore them...how do you get criminals to comply with the laws you want?

Gun dealers ignore hte law, too.

And I'm really not talking about 'criminals", here, guy. Most gun deaths are committed by people who've never committed a crime in their lives.

Holmes, Lanza, Cho, Loughner- these guys all had nice clean criminal records and passed NICS background checks.

 

[2aguy]

Soooo...please refute all of those studies...and since Kleck's isn't the highest or lowest in the range of the studies and he actually explained his methodolgy in fulll...why is it that the anti-gunners always go after him...again...all of those other studies, at least 19 seperate gun studies done over a 40 year period in both private and government research shows that 760,000 is the low point and at least three studies show 3 milllion is a possible number...including the study obama had the CDC do in 2013 where their numbers were 500,000 up to 3 million...

So tell me...are all of those studies wrong...

 

[JoeB131]

Hemenway is a gun grabber...funny...he disputes Kleck...but what about the other 19 seperate gun studies conducted over a 40 year period which confirms Kleck's numbers...I'll repeat them...

19 studies of shit still come up with shit.

 

[2aguy]

And I'm really not talking about 'criminals", here, guy. Most gun deaths are committed by people who've never committed a crime in their lives.

Holmes, Lanza, Cho, Loughner- these guys all had nice clean criminal records and passed NICS background checks.

Yeah...so what law that you are proposing would have stopped these guys...background checks...fail...magazine limits...fail...registering guns...fail...

Arrest the people who break the law with guns, lock them up a long time...leave law abiding gun owners alone...

 

[2aguy]

19 studies of shit still come up with shit.

That is quite the little bit of wisdom there...

 

[2aguy]

Gun dealers ignore hte law, too.

Yeah, sometimes...so arrest them when they break it...problem solved...

 

[JoeB131]

Soooo...please refute all of those studies...and since Kleck's isn't the highest or lowest in the range of the studies and he actually explained his methodolgy in fulll...why is it that the anti-gunners always go after him...again...all of those other studies, at least 19 seperate gun studies done over a 40 year period in both private and government research shows that 760,000 is the low point and at least three studies show 3 milllion is a possible number...including the study obama had the CDC do in 2013 where their numbers were 500,000 up to 3 million...

So tell me...are all of those studies wrong...

Yes, they are all wrong, and by simple logic.

According to the FBI, there are only 201 cases a year where a homicide by a civilian with a gun was ruled justifiable.

So what you would have us believe is that there were 89,000 to 2,500,000 cases where someone really needed that gun to defend himself, but only 201 cases of those where the bad guy ended up with a toe tag.

That sounds a little improbable. Particularly when I listen to you gun nuts get on here EVERY FUCKING DAY telling me about how you just can't wait for the day when you can pull a Zimmerman and plug some brown person who was trying to jack your car or your wallet.

I just find it hard to believe you guys are capable of restraint 99.99% of the time when confronted with that situation.

 

[JoeB131]

Gun dealers ignore hte law, too.

Yeah, sometimes...so arrest them when they break it...problem solved...

That's my plan. When a gun you sold is used in a crime, you do the bad guy's time.

Period.

I don't care what background checks he passed. YOu are an accessory before the fact.

Done.

Betcha the first few times people go to jail for htat shit you will be AMAZED how fast they clean up their acts.