Another concealed carry owner doing the wrong thing

[2aguy]

And again...a Dept. of Justice survey conducted after Dr. Kleck's survey...

How Often Are Firearms Used in Self-Defense

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms (text, PDF). Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

You anti gunners love big government...and here you have a big government survey...sadly...it to refutes your low numbers...

 

[2aguy]

And some more on the topic...

Gun Self Defense Counter Web Widget

Here is a counter that chronicles gun murders, gun accidents and self defense uses as of Jan. 1 of 2014...

<embed src=http://ActionAmerica.org/flash/gsdCount.swf width=240 height=175 wmode=transparent type=application/x-shockwave-flash></embed>

And a look at a study done by the Clinton Justice Department...

Even when the Clinton Justice Department hand picked noted anti-gun criminologists Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig, to conduct a study on "Guns in America," in 1997, to undermine the Kleck study, these researchers couldn't hide the truth. Keep in mind that these were people who were already well known for their anti-gun positions and whose pay check was being signed by the Clinton Justice Department, yet the lowest that they could get the number of defensive gun uses was still more than 1.5 million times a year.

The difference is the Cook/Ludwig numbers and the Kleck/Gertz numbers is likely related to the fact that the Kleck/Gertz researchers identified themselves to respondents, as independent researchers, with Northwestern University and that the respondents' answers would remain anonymous, while the Cook/Ludwig researchers identified themselves to respondents, as being tied to the US Justice Department, even showing identification that included a badge, in personal interviews and took down all contact imformation of every adult in the household, before comencing the survey.

 

[2aguy]

Ahhhh...here you go Brain357...a table that lists all the defensive gun use studies...and their numbers...

13 different studies on the use of guns to save lives and stop crimes...

Tell me all of these studies are wrong and yours is the only accurate study...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

 

[Brain357]

There is a reason the military isn't using tire irons, bats, hammers.... A gun is a drastically more effective weapon.

People have been killed in road rage situations without guns. Individuals will bring out tire-irons, bats, hammers, hatchets and knives.
Per your logic, we should ban blunt and sharp instruments being carried.

 

[Brain357]

And they always have vastly different numbers. That should be a clue to anyone intelligent how inaccurate these are.

Ahhhh...here you go Brain357...a table that lists all the defensive gun use studies...and their numbers...

13 different studies on the use of guns to save lives and stop crimes...

Tell me all of these studies are wrong and yours is the only accurate study...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

 

[2aguy]

A gun is a drastically more effective weapon

Which is why the old, the weak, the outnumbered, women, the physically handicapped, or those attacked by violent criminals who use weapons of any kind, including guns....need guns to survive these attacks. Criminals pick their victims, they pick the location and they pick the time of attack....often, the victim is isolated and alone vs. multiple armed attackers and a gun is the only thing that will save their lives...

And yet the gun grabbers prefer that those victims simply suffer the attack, the rape, the brutal beating, the robbery or the murder...and hope things turn out all right in the end...and if it doesn't...if the victim suffers physical or psychological trauma, or great injury or death....well...that is just the way the cookie crumbles...and besides...as most gun grabbers will tell you...they and their families have never been victims of violent criminals...so why does anyone need a gun for protection....

gun grabbers think funnny....

 

[2aguy]

And they always have vastly different numbers.

Nice try Brain357...considering your numbers are losers...if you look at 14 studies, the 13 in the table linked above and Dr. Kleck's study...they all....(except for 2 that put the number at over 700,000) , put defensive gun uses over 1 million times a year....not the 104,000 times that you desperately cling to....so if 14 studies put the number over 740,000 times each year and 12 of the 14 put it at over 1 million times a year...which is more accurate...104,000 from a known anti gun source or the 14 studies, some from anti gunner sources as well....

Your numbers are the false ones Brain357....learn to live with it...

 

[2aguy]

Okay Brain357....I added the totals from 15 defensive gun use studies...the 13 listed plus Kleck's and I threw in your number 104,000 for goo measure and then divided by. 15 to get....1,409,285 as the average number between all of those studies...even though the number you submitted is an outlier...


so....11-12,000 gun murders each year....vs....1.4 million defensive gun uses where lives are saved and violent crimes are stopped....each year


and...

600-700 accidental gun deaths each year...vs....1.4 million times guns are used to save lives and stop crime....


so....do you doubt those numbers?

 

[Brain357]

And gun owners are getting 232,000 guns stolen each year. These go directly into the hands of criminals.

A gun is a drastically more effective weapon

Which is why the old, the weak, the outnumbered, women, the physically handicapped, or those attacked by violent criminals who use weapons of any kind, including guns....need guns to survive these attacks. Criminals pick their victims, they pick the location and they pick the time of attack....often, the victim is isolated and alone vs. multiple armed attackers and a gun is the only thing that will save their lives...

And yet the gun grabbers prefer that those victims simply suffer the attack, the rape, the brutal beating, the robbery or the murder...and hope things turn out all right in the end...and if it doesn't...if the victim suffers physical or psychological trauma, or great injury or death....well...that is just the way the cookie crumbles...and besides...as most gun grabbers will tell you...they and their families have never been victims of violent criminals...so why does anyone need a gun for protection....

gun grabbers think funnny....

 

[Brain357]

If your numbers were anywhere near true we would hear about numerous defenses daily. We do not, they are made up.

And they always have vastly different numbers.

Nice try Brain357...considering your numbers are losers...if you look at 14 studies, the 13 in the table linked above and Dr. Kleck's study...they all....(except for 2 that put the number at over 700,000) , put defensive gun uses over 1 million times a year....not the 104,000 times that you desperately cling to....so if 14 studies put the number over 740,000 times each year and 12 of the 14 put it at over 1 million times a year...which is more accurate...104,000 from a known anti gun source or the 14 studies, some from anti gunner sources as well....

Your numbers are the false ones Brain357....learn to live with it...

 

[Brain357]

So you think taking a bunch of fantasy numbers and averaging them gives you some sort of real number? Very scientific. The number is probably somewhere around 100k, end of story.

Okay Brain357....I added the totals from 15 defensive gun use studies...the 13 listed plus Kleck's and I threw in your number 104,000 for goo measure and then divided by. 15 to get....1,409,285 as the average number between all of those studies...even though the number you submitted is an outlier...


so....11-12,000 gun murders each year....vs....1.4 million defensive gun uses where lives are saved and violent crimes are stopped....each year


and...

600-700 accidental gun deaths each year...vs....1.4 million times guns are used to save lives and stop crime....


so....do you doubt those numbers?

 

[2aguy]

100k using anti gunner math...not likely...the 15 studies came from many, many different independent groups doing the count...and their methods were shown in the table...so pretend as much as you want, you can't hide the truth, as much as you would like to...

And those guns stolen...again...so what...it is against the law to steal guns...what...do you want a new law that says it is really, really, really illegal to steal guns from people...and this time we really, really mean it...with sugar on top....obviously the criminals understand why guns are important...perhaps they could run a class for gun grabbers and explain that simple concept to them...guns = power....to inflict your will on another....or to keep another from inflicting their will upon you...even the most common street criminal understands this, which is why they steal guns...you know...guns they can't legally own...and yet they still break the law to get them....wow...

 

[Brain357]

The more you keep posting more studies the more wrong you are. One minute you are saying it is 250K, the next 800k, then 1.5 million, then 2.5 million. Sorry but if the surveys were accurate they would get the same answer. All you are doing is proving how inaccurate these surveys are.

You can't post about how much crime guns stop when gun owners can't even keep their own guns from being stolen. If owning a gun was so effective 232,000 guns wouldn't be stolen each year.

100k using anti gunner math...not likely...the 15 studies came from many, many different independent groups doing the count...and their methods were shown in the table...so pretend as much as you want, you can't hide the truth, as much as you would like to...

And those guns stolen...again...so what...it is against the law to steal guns...what...do you want a new law that says it is really, really, really illegal to steal guns from people...and this time we really, really mean it...with sugar on top....obviously the criminals understand why guns are important...perhaps they could run a class for gun grabbers and explain that simple concept to them...guns = power....to inflict your will on another....or to keep another from inflicting their will upon you...even the most common street criminal understands this, which is why they steal guns...you know...guns they can't legally own...and yet they still break the law to get them....wow...

 

[2aguy]

You are now just being silly Brain357...guns are not surgically implanted into our bodies and therefore must be stored somewhere....gun stores,are robbed, police evidence lockers are robbed, national guard armories lose weapons...drug addicts break into homes...there is no way to stop the illegal activity...you can only punish those,caught doing it.

A gun store in my area was,robbed...the thieves broke through a metal security door to get access to the guns...another theft occurred when a train car was,broken into....so please...get serious and move on because the theft thing is silly...

http://abc7chicago.com/archive/8511665/

Chicago police say they have arrested four men in connection with a gun running operation. They recovered 58 handguns that were stolen from a suburban gun store and headed for Chicago streets.
Police say the most recent case involved the burglary of more than 200 guns from Maxon Shooters Supplies in Des Plaines. On Sunday, thieves broke the door down with a sledgehammer, then smashed a glass display case in the store and took the weapons.

More than 100 rifles stolen from Atlanta train car - CBS News

ATLANTA Federal authorities were hunting Friday for more than 100 rifles stolen from a boxcar parked in an Atlanta train yard.
The weapons were taken from a CSX rail yard on the city's northwest side in mid-November, said Richard Coes, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
The weapons include assault rifles that Coes described as "AK-style." He declined to discuss other aspects of the case.

2 Lake County Officers Accused Of Stealing Guns From Evidence Locker CBS Denver

LEA

DVILL

E, Colo. (CBS4) – Two law enforcement officers are going to face charges after allegedly stealing several guns from the evidence locker.

Lake County Sgt. Jeffrey Hartman turned himself in. He was the evidence custodian. An investigation showed a deputy, William Berry, constructed the plan to take the four guns, which came from a previous case Berry had been involved in.

“The evidence custodian and the deputy got together and agreed to do this transaction, they would divide up the firearms. one of them took a firearm to keep for himself. and another took 2 firearms to keep for himself and another to sell,” District Attorney Bruce Brown said.[/QUOTE]

 

[Brain357]

I don't see anything silly about 232,000 guns going into criminal hands each year. This is a direct exchange from gun owner to criminal.

Here is an interesting example. This guy got his gun stolen from his car and then the gun was used to kill two men during a robbery:
Gun stolen from congressional candidate John Katko used in robbery where 2 were killed syracuse.com

Still silly to you?

I would guess his gun was never used for defense.

You are now just being silly Brain357...guns are not surgically implanted into our bodies and therefore must be stored somewhere....gun stores,are robbed, police evidence lockers are robbed, national guard armories lose weapons...drug addicts break into homes...there is no way to stop the illegal activity...you can only punish those,caught doing it.

A gun store in my area was,robbed...the thieves broke through a metal security door to get access to the guns...another theft occurred when a train car was,broken into....so please...get serious and move on because the theft thing is silly...

http://abc7chicago.com/archive/8511665/

Chicago police say they have arrested four men in connection with a gun running operation. They recovered 58 handguns that were stolen from a suburban gun store and headed for Chicago streets.
Police say the most recent case involved the burglary of more than 200 guns from Maxon Shooters Supplies in Des Plaines. On Sunday, thieves broke the door down with a sledgehammer, then smashed a glass display case in the store and took the weapons.

More than 100 rifles stolen from Atlanta train car - CBS News

ATLANTA Federal authorities were hunting Friday for more than 100 rifles stolen from a boxcar parked in an Atlanta train yard.
The weapons were taken from a CSX rail yard on the city's northwest side in mid-November, said Richard Coes, a spokesman for the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
The weapons include assault rifles that Coes described as "AK-style." He declined to discuss other aspects of the case.

2 Lake County Officers Accused Of Stealing Guns From Evidence Locker CBS Denver

LEA

DVILL

E, Colo. (CBS4) – Two law enforcement officers are going to face charges after allegedly stealing several guns from the evidence locker.

Lake County Sgt. Jeffrey Hartman turned himself in. He was the evidence custodian. An investigation showed a deputy, William Berry, constructed the plan to take the four guns, which came from a previous case Berry had been involved in.

“The evidence custodian and the deputy got together and agreed to do this transaction, they would divide up the firearms. one of them took a firearm to keep for himself. and another took 2 firearms to keep for himself and another to sell,” District Attorney Bruce Brown said.[/QUOTE]

 

[2aguy]

Yeah, a criminal steals a gun and uses it to kill people....what is your solution...make it really, really illegal to steal guns and extra special illegal to murder people?

By the way...where do you get the 104,000 defensive uses for guns...? I have given you all my sources...where does that come from?

Keep in mind...you have one study...one....from an anti gun source and since you are opposed to people owning guns that is the one study you say is real....

I have cited 15 different studies...one of them yours....and averaged the number of times each study says that guns were used to save lives and stop violent criminals...that comes out to 1.4 million times a year...the studies I cited ranged all over the map as to their neutrality on the gun issue...in fact...Dr. Kleck, the researcher with the most famous study began his research into the issue oppose to the private ownership of guns...his research into the topic changed his mind....

So tell me...your one anti gun biased study....vs...15 studies from a variety of sources...and tell me you aren't silly...

 

[2aguy]

for those who want to see the studies...again...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Then the link to Dr. Kleck's study is at the bottom of that page and then you can throw in Brain357 on top of that at 104,000

 

[2aguy]

Almost got it to print...it won't paste the very bottom column...you'll still have to go to the link to get those numbers...but the rest of the info. on the studies is here...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Well, I managed to get the two tables to copy...well, that does it then...now everyone can see the 13 studies cited by Kleck in his paper and at the link on the bottom they can read Kleck's points on these studies and his arguments against the National Crime Victimization Study numbers....

The study link is in the first Paragraph from this paper...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense



Now take the 13 studies listed below, and add in Kleck's number of 2.5 million and Brain357's one study from his anti gun source at 104,000 and then get the average....which is 1.4 million times a year a gun is used to save lives and stop violent crime....

Table 1 FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS [80]
Survey:	Field	Bordua	Cambridge Reports	DMIa	DMIb	Hart	Ohio
Area:	California	Illinois	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	Ohio
Year of Interview	1976	1977	1978	1978	1978	1981	1982
Population Covered	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Registered voters	Registered voters	Registered voters	"Residents"
Gun Type Covered	Handguns	All guns	Handguns	All guns	All guns	Handguns	Handguns
Recall Period:	Ever/1, 2 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	No	No	No	Yes	Yes	No
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	No	No	Yes	Yes	Yes	No
Defensive question asked of:	All Rs	All Rs	Protection hgun owners	All Rs	All Rs	All Rs	Rs in hgun households
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Household	Household	Household	Respondent
% Who Used	1.4/3/8.6[a]	5.0	18	15	7	4	6.5
% Who Fired Gun	2.9	n.a.	12	6	n.a.	n.a.	2.6
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[Page 183]

Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Table 1 (continued) FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS
Survey:	Time/CNN	Mauser	Gallup	Gallup	L.A. Times	Tarrance
Area:	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.
Year of Interview	1989	1990	1991	1993	1994	1994
Population Covered	"Firearm owners"	Residents	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults
Gun Type Covered	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns
Recall Period:	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	Yes	No	No	No	Yes
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	Yes	Yes
Defensive question asked of:	Gun owners	All Rs	Rs in hgun hshlds	Gun owners	All	All
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Hshld.	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent/ Household
% Who Used	n.a.	3.79	8	11	8[c]	1/2[d]
% Who Fired Gun	9-16e	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Table 1, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.

Those are thirteen gun studies used to get the average number of 1.4 million times a gun is used to save lives or stop violent crime...the last two are Kleck's own study where these tables are linked from and Brain357s one study that the anti gunners believe in...

 

[Brain357]

So again you post more surveys that all contradict each other. You would have to be pretty dumb to think there are so many defenses per year when real verifiable instances are so hard to come by. I always hear how defenses happen so much more than accidental shootings, yet it's so easy to find verifiable instances of accidental shootings.

Birthday Celebration Turns Into Accidental Shooting
Tallulah Toddler Killed in Accidental Shooting - MyArkLaMiss.com - KTVE NBC 10 - KARD FOX 14 - Your homepage for the latest News Weather and Sports in the ArkLaMiss
Siloam Springs teen in hospital after accidental shooting Local News - KHBS Home
yes all are from the last day. Now match them with defenses from the last day.

You can post bad surveys all day, but you can't post news stories of accounts actually happening. Sorry but the actual accounts are the facts and you have few.

Almost got it to print...it won't paste the very bottom column...you'll still have to go to the link to get those numbers...but the rest of the info. on the studies is here...

GunCite Frequency of Defensive Gun Use in Previous Surveys

Well, I managed to get the two tables to copy...well, that does it then...now everyone can see the 13 studies cited by Kleck in his paper and at the link on the bottom they can read Kleck's points on these studies and his arguments against the National Crime Victimization Study numbers....

The study link is in the first Paragraph from this paper...

GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense



Now take the 13 studies listed below, and add in Kleck's number of 2.5 million and Brain357's one study from his anti gun source at 104,000 and then get the average....which is 1.4 million times a year a gun is used to save lives and stop violent crime....

Table 1 FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS [80]
Survey:	Field	Bordua	Cambridge Reports	DMIa	DMIb	Hart	Ohio
Area:	California	Illinois	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	Ohio
Year of Interview	1976	1977	1978	1978	1978	1981	1982
Population Covered	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Registered voters	Registered voters	Registered voters	"Residents"
Gun Type Covered	Handguns	All guns	Handguns	All guns	All guns	Handguns	Handguns
Recall Period:	Ever/1, 2 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	No	No	No	Yes	Yes	No
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	No	No	Yes	Yes	Yes	No
Defensive question asked of:	All Rs	All Rs	Protection hgun owners	All Rs	All Rs	All Rs	Rs in hgun households
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Household	Household	Household	Respondent
% Who Used	1.4/3/8.6[a]	5.0	18	15	7	4	6.5
% Who Fired Gun	2.9	n.a.	12	6	n.a.	n.a.	2.6
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

[Page 183]

Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Table 1 (continued) FREQUENCY OF DEFENSIVE GUN USE IN PREVIOUS SURVEYS
Survey:	Time/CNN	Mauser	Gallup	Gallup	L.A. Times	Tarrance
Area:	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.	U.S.
Year of Interview	1989	1990	1991	1993	1994	1994
Population Covered	"Firearm owners"	Residents	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults	Noninst. Adults
Gun Type Covered	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns	All guns
Recall Period:	Ever	5 yrs.	Ever	Ever	Ever	5 yrs.
Excluded Uses Against Animals	No	Yes	No	No	No	Yes
Excluded Military, Police Uses?	Yes	Yes	No	Yes	Yes	Yes
Defensive question asked of:	Gun owners	All Rs	Rs in hgun hshlds	Gun owners	All	All
Defensive question refers to:	Respondent	Hshld.	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent	Respondent/ Household
% Who Used	n.a.	3.79	8	11	8[c]	1/2[d]
% Who Fired Gun	9-16e	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.	n.a.
Implied number of def. gun uses

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Table 1, Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.

Those are thirteen gun studies used to get the average number of 1.4 million times a gun is used to save lives or stop violent crime...the last two are Kleck's own study where these tables are linked from and Brain357s one study that the anti gunners believe in...

 

[zeke]

On accidental shootings...

How Many Accidental Gun Injuries per Year The Volokh ConspiracyThe Volokh Conspiracy

there are about 14,000-19,000 nonfatal injuries stemming from accidental shootings per year in the U.S., though only about 600 people killed in such shootings. As always, keep in mind the limitations of this data, including that some suicides and suicide attempts could be misclassified as accidents.

so again...600 deaths due to accidents vs...at one estimate possibly 2.5 million crimes stopped and lives saved....since the gun grabbers have actual bodies to count they have the easier side of the debate....the people who use their guns to save,lives and stop crime often don't shoot, their weapon and simply drive off their attackers with no injuries....

Maybe you could explain how that works. Someone is attacking me and yet I don't have to discharge my weapon to stop the attack? And no one got hurt from this attack and the subsequent defense that was used? And no one got hurt?

I think people like you are full of shit and haven't been in a violent situation.

And your 2.5 million crimes stopped per year. Bullshit. That's 68,493 crimes stopped per day. Bullshit.
And yet those stopping those supposed crimes don't report them. How convenient eh? And why wouldn't someone who had just stopped a violent criminal NOT report that to the police so the criminal could be arrested?