Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[Truthmatters]

June 3, 1811



Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself.
James Madison


James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman

 

[Truthmatters]

Right there he says that the constitution guarentees the distinction between religion and civil government.


The Father of the constitution.


GAME OVER!

 

[Truthmatters]

Ask yourself who is lying to you about the history of the US and what do they have to gain by lying to you?

 

[Truthmatters]

Will you now pretend you dont know these facts?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So what? It's still NOT in the US Constitution!

Good grief!!

Its the given interpretation of the Establishment Clause. Good grief.

My guess is you are probably not so literal when it comes to the 2nd Amendment.

In the 1947 Everson v. Board of Education decision, Justice Hugo Black wrote, "In the words of Thomas Jefferson, the clause against establishment of religion by law was intended to erect a wall of separation between church and state." However, the Court has not always interpreted the constitutional principle as meaning absolute separation of government from all things religious.

From 1780 Massachusetts had a system which required every man to belong to a church, and permitted each church to tax its members, but forbade any law requiring that it be of any particular denomination. This was objected to, as in practice establishing the Congregational Church, the majority denomination, and was abolished in 1833.

Until 1877 the New Hampshire Constitution required members of the State legislature to be of the Protestant religion.

The North Carolina Constitution of 1776 disestablished the Anglican church, but until 1835 the NC Constitution allowed only Protestants to hold public office. From 1835-1876 it allowed only Christians (including Catholics) to hold public office. Article VI, Section 8 of the current NC Constitution forbids only atheists from holding public office.[10] Such clauses were held by the United States Supreme Court to be unenforceable in the 1961 case of Torcaso v. Watkins, when the court ruled unanimously that such clauses constituted a religious test incompatible with First and Fourteenth Amendment protections.

 

[Immanuel]

Ask yourself who is lying to you about the history of the US and what do they have to gain by lying to you?

I know one person that has been lying to me for quite awhile. Hmmm, wonder who that might be?

Immie

 

[CryingKoala]

So basicailly you're assuming.

You're assuming that because the notion had been around since the 1600's that it was still being discussed a hundred or so years later.

You're also assuming that Jefferson took his cue from the writing sof Penn and the like.

And that brings me to assume you can't find a direct link.

But nevertheless, the Letter that Jefferson wrote was 14 years after the bill of rights was written. So to say that the establishment clause meant separation of church and state is rather a stretch. Especially knowing that Jefferson himself attended church services in the house of Representatives during his Presidency. Which is contrary to this "wall of seperation" fallacy.

What you are doing is ignoring the elephant in the room. The direct link is obvious because its concepts were aped a century later almost verbatim. It speaks for itself. Jefferson even used the same term as Williams "wall of separation". Despite your attempts to dodge, Roger Williams was not an obscure figure in American history or political thought. Neither was William Penn. These were famous men. Renown and well chronicled to all those living in the colonies they founded and elsewhere.

The concept was around in the 1600's and was a major issue long past that point because we had colonies with officially sanctioned religions up until the revolution. It wouldn't have gone away to obscurity because PA and RI were still refuges from ongoing sanctioned religious persecution going on in the colonies. Anabaptists (Quakers, Seekers...) were very influential in Colonial and American politics at the time as well. Separation of Church and State is a part of their theology.

The only stretch here is to believe the concept just went into obscurity after a century given it was still of vital importance even as the Constitution was written.

You are asking to take leave of all common sense in order to support your argument. You have lost this on the facts.

Separation of Church and State did not originate with Jefferson. You can't claim otherwise. It would be a lie based on what you now know about 2 of our original 13 Colonies.

 

[Truthmatters]

Madison on church and state



Call the Father of the constitution a liar why dont you

 

[Truthmatters]

For those of you who refuse this cold hard evidence of what the founders intended on the issue.

You are enemies of this country

 

[del]

For those of you who refuse this cold hard evidence of what the founders intended on the issue.

You are enemies of this country

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

 

[CryingKoala]

For those of you who refuse this cold hard evidence of what the founders intended on the issue.

You are enemies of this country

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

Considering how thickheaded some people here are,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

 

[del]

For those of you who refuse this cold hard evidence of what the founders intended on the issue.

You are enemies of this country

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

Considering how thickheaded some people here,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

when i'm desirous of your opinion, i'll give it to you.

 

[CryingKoala]

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

Considering how thickheaded some people here,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

when i'm desirous of your opinion, i'll give it to you.

When I want to hear an asshole, I will fart.

 

[tonystewart1]

For those of you who refuse this cold hard evidence of what the founders intended on the issue.

You are enemies of this country

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

Considering how thickheaded some people here are,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

Liberals are real quick to point out the intentions of the founding fathers when they can twist it to fit their agenda. When they cant they call the constitiution a flexible document and proceed to wipe their butts on it.

 

[Moonglow]

you gonna post that in every thread you're in, wetbrain?

Considering how thickheaded some people here are,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

Liberals are real quick to point out the intentions of the founding fathers when they can twist it to fit their agenda. When they cant they call the constitiution a flexible document and proceed to wipe their butts on it.

Nixon and Agnew were not liberals.

 

[tonystewart1]

Considering how thickheaded some people here are,

why not?

Besides, it is kinda retarded to respond with a sneer and emoticon.

Liberals are real quick to point out the intentions of the founding fathers when they can twist it to fit their agenda. When they cant they call the constitiution a flexible document and proceed to wipe their butts on it.

Nixon and Agnew were not liberals.

Thats true they where criminals.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

So basicailly you're assuming.

You're assuming that because the notion had been around since the 1600's that it was still being discussed a hundred or so years later.

You're also assuming that Jefferson took his cue from the writing sof Penn and the like.

And that brings me to assume you can't find a direct link.

But nevertheless, the Letter that Jefferson wrote was 14 years after the bill of rights was written. So to say that the establishment clause meant separation of church and state is rather a stretch. Especially knowing that Jefferson himself attended church services in the house of Representatives during his Presidency. Which is contrary to this "wall of seperation" fallacy.

What you are doing is ignoring the elephant in the room. The direct link is obvious because its concepts were aped a century later almost verbatim. It speaks for itself. Jefferson even used the same term as Williams "wall of separation". Despite your attempts to dodge, Roger Williams was not an obscure figure in American history or political thought. Neither was William Penn. These were famous men. Renown and well chronicled to all those living in the colonies they founded and elsewhere.

The concept was around in the 1600's and was a major issue long past that point because we had colonies with officially sanctioned religions up until the revolution. It wouldn't have gone away to obscurity because PA and RI were still refuges from ongoing sanctioned religious persecution going on in the colonies. Anabaptists (Quakers, Seekers...) were very influential in Colonial and American politics at the time as well. Separation of Church and State is a part of their theology.

The only stretch here is to believe the concept just went into obscurity after a century given it was still of vital importance even as the Constitution was written.

You are asking to take leave of all common sense in order to support your argument. You have lost this on the facts.

Separation of Church and State did not originate with Jefferson. You can't claim otherwise. It would be a lie based on what you now know about 2 of our original 13 Colonies.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy no matter who coined the phrase.

Use some common sense here. If Jefferson meant a wall should be erected between the government and religion then why as President would he allow and attend church services in the House of Representatives?!?!?!?

Explain why we have military chaplains, prayers in courts and legislatures, the claim "In God We Trust" on coins, an official Thanksgiving day, oaths that end "so help me, God,", a National day of prayer and many other things that bring religion into the public sphere.

Jefferson who had nothing to do with the drafting of the Bill of Rights and Madison both accommodated religion in various ways while they were in office.

 

[JRK]

So basicailly you're assuming.

You're assuming that because the notion had been around since the 1600's that it was still being discussed a hundred or so years later.

You're also assuming that Jefferson took his cue from the writing sof Penn and the like.

And that brings me to assume you can't find a direct link.

But nevertheless, the Letter that Jefferson wrote was 14 years after the bill of rights was written. So to say that the establishment clause meant separation of church and state is rather a stretch. Especially knowing that Jefferson himself attended church services in the house of Representatives during his Presidency. Which is contrary to this "wall of seperation" fallacy.

What you are doing is ignoring the elephant in the room. The direct link is obvious because its concepts were aped a century later almost verbatim. It speaks for itself. Jefferson even used the same term as Williams "wall of separation". Despite your attempts to dodge, Roger Williams was not an obscure figure in American history or political thought. Neither was William Penn. These were famous men. Renown and well chronicled to all those living in the colonies they founded and elsewhere.

The concept was around in the 1600's and was a major issue long past that point because we had colonies with officially sanctioned religions up until the revolution. It wouldn't have gone away to obscurity because PA and RI were still refuges from ongoing sanctioned religious persecution going on in the colonies. Anabaptists (Quakers, Seekers...) were very influential in Colonial and American politics at the time as well. Separation of Church and State is a part of their theology.

The only stretch here is to believe the concept just went into obscurity after a century given it was still of vital importance even as the Constitution was written.

You are asking to take leave of all common sense in order to support your argument. You have lost this on the facts.

Separation of Church and State did not originate with Jefferson. You can't claim otherwise. It would be a lie based on what you now know about 2 of our original 13 Colonies.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy no matter who coined the phrase.

Use some common sense here. If Jefferson meant a wall should be erected between the government and religion then why as President would he allow and attend church services in the House of Representatives?!?!?!?

Explain why we have military chaplains, prayers in courts and legislatures, the claim "In God We Trust" on coins, an official Thanksgiving day, oaths that end "so help me, God,", a National day of prayer and many other things that bring religion into the public sphere.

Jefferson who had nothing to do with the drafting of the Bill of Rights and Madison both accommodated religion in various ways while they were in office.

The 10 commandments are in more than 1 place in the supreme court building

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Please disprove anything specific I put forward or ask me for more information if you dont think something I said was accurate.

Your response, thus far, does not address any of the factual historic information from my post above.

What part of the reference to Roger Williams [founder of the Rhode Island Colony] in the 17th Century talking about the wall of separation to describe the relationship between the church and state did you not get?

I guess ignoring a fact which has been posted over and over again here is much easier than confronting one's own mendacity.

---
I will do you one better. We also have William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania created within that colony's charter the first recorded declaration of the separation of church and state within a legal framework.

freedomforum.org: William Penn's 'radical' document marks 300th anniversary

Penn even wrote a treatise on the subject in the 17th Century as the separation of Church and State was a deeply held religious belief among Anabaptists (Quakers)
Where did Separation of Church and State Originate?

There we have it a historical fact that the concept of separation of church and state is much much older than Jefferson and even the United States itself.

James Madison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


James Madison, Jr. (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American statesman and political theorist. He was the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817) and is hailed as the “Father of the Constitution” for being the primary author of the United States Constitution and the author of the United States Bill of Rights.[1]


The "father of the Constitution" believed in sepration of church and state.

Yes if you read madison you will see he was set against a government establishment of religion, just like it says in the constitution.

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;

It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

However, what he is saying is that government should never establish a religion which does not equal what you define as the seperation of church and state where no govt branch or agent can say or do anything in regards to any religion at all.

He was for preventing the establishment of a government religion but he was also for not prohibiting the free excercise of religion.

Your, and many other liberal's, interpretation of the seperation of church and state actually does prohibit the free excercise of religion.

What was that again guys? Still haven't seen anything debunking what i've said.


Kola, as far as the distaction of when church and state was first said, please provide the documents that show it being referred to in those terms prior to jefferson's letter to the danbury baptists and i'll admit I was mistaken on that one thing.

You will have to still provide evidence that contradicts the accuracy of the other information I presented.


here let me repost it, AGAIN, in context as you seem to keep liking to just pull one sentence out of my posts so that its relative context is missing

With Rick Perry in the running and maybe becoming the front runner soon for the whole shooting match the liberals will go on the attack with this liberal myth

No-one wants the president to make there choices because Allah came to them and told them to
But to be a Christian and be a practicing Christian as well as being the president, having a day of prayer, etc.. is not against the law nor is it forbidden by anything in our constitution as we are told over and over it is
This will become a hot issue with Perry
watch for it and know when you hear it, your being lied to

The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. The phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution. The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Prior to 1947, however separation of church and state was not considered part of the constitution; indeed in 1870s and 1890s unsuccessful attempts were made to amend the constitution to guarantee separation of church and state, a task to be accomplished not by constitutional amendment but by judicial fiat in 1947. [2]
Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are correct in saying that there is no seperation of church and state in the constitution. In fact the constitution says that the governments role in religion is to " make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802

The process of drafting the First Amendment made the intent of the Founders abundantly clear; for before they approved the final wording, the First Amendment went through nearly a dozen different iterations and extensive discussions.

Those discussions—recorded in the Congressional Records from June 7 through September 25 of 1789—make clear their intent for the First Amendment. By it, the Founders were saying: "We do not want in America what we had in Great Britain: we don’t want one denomination running the nation. We will not all be Catholics, or Anglicans, or any other single denomination. We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation."

This intent was well understood, as evidenced by court rulings after the First Amendment. For example, a 1799 court declared (Runkel v. Winemiller case of 1799):

"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing."

Again, note the emphasis: "We do want Christian principles—we do want God’s principles—but we don’t want one denomination to run the nation."

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, heard a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was about to be made the national denomination. That rumor distressed the Danbury Baptists, as it should have. Consequently, the fired off a litter to President Thomas Jefferson voicing their concern. On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptists, assuring them that "the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state."


All of this can be easily verified at your local library and possibly on the internet....if people can't find links to anything above that they dont believe me on just tell me and i'll go find one for you.

 

[Moonglow]

So basicailly you're assuming.

You're assuming that because the notion had been around since the 1600's that it was still being discussed a hundred or so years later.

You're also assuming that Jefferson took his cue from the writing sof Penn and the like.

And that brings me to assume you can't find a direct link.

But nevertheless, the Letter that Jefferson wrote was 14 years after the bill of rights was written. So to say that the establishment clause meant separation of church and state is rather a stretch. Especially knowing that Jefferson himself attended church services in the house of Representatives during his Presidency. Which is contrary to this "wall of seperation" fallacy.

What you are doing is ignoring the elephant in the room. The direct link is obvious because its concepts were aped a century later almost verbatim. It speaks for itself. Jefferson even used the same term as Williams "wall of separation". Despite your attempts to dodge, Roger Williams was not an obscure figure in American history or political thought. Neither was William Penn. These were famous men. Renown and well chronicled to all those living in the colonies they founded and elsewhere.

The concept was around in the 1600's and was a major issue long past that point because we had colonies with officially sanctioned religions up until the revolution. It wouldn't have gone away to obscurity because PA and RI were still refuges from ongoing sanctioned religious persecution going on in the colonies. Anabaptists (Quakers, Seekers...) were very influential in Colonial and American politics at the time as well. Separation of Church and State is a part of their theology.

The only stretch here is to believe the concept just went into obscurity after a century given it was still of vital importance even as the Constitution was written.

You are asking to take leave of all common sense in order to support your argument. You have lost this on the facts.

Separation of Church and State did not originate with Jefferson. You can't claim otherwise. It would be a lie based on what you now know about 2 of our original 13 Colonies.

Separation of church and state is a fallacy no matter who coined the phrase.

Use some common sense here. If Jefferson meant a wall should be erected between the government and religion then why as President would he allow and attend church services in the House of Representatives?!?!?!?

Explain why we have military chaplains, prayers in courts and legislatures, the claim "In God We Trust" on coins, an official Thanksgiving day, oaths that end "so help me, God,", a National day of prayer and many other things that bring religion into the public sphere.

Jefferson who had nothing to do with the drafting of the Bill of Rights and Madison both accommodated religion in various ways while they were in office.

The 10 commandments are in more than 1 place in the supreme court building

as a publicity stunt for the movie" The Ten Commandments"