Another Liberal myth: Separation of church and state is not in the constitution

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Please disprove anything specific I put forward or ask me for more information if you dont think something I said was accurate.

Your response, thus far, does not address any of the factual historic information from my post above.

What part of the reference to Roger Williams [founder of the Rhode Island Colony] in the 17th Century talking about the wall of separation to describe the relationship between the church and state did you not get?

I guess ignoring a fact which has been posted over and over again here is much easier than confronting one's own mendacity.

---
I will do you one better. We also have William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania created within that colony's charter the first recorded declaration of the separation of church and state within a legal framework.

freedomforum.org: William Penn's 'radical' document marks 300th anniversary

Penn even wrote a treatise on the subject in the 17th Century as the separation of Church and State was a deeply held religious belief among Anabaptists (Quakers)
Where did Separation of Church and State Originate?

There we have it a historical fact that the concept of separation of church and state is much much older than Jefferson and even the United States itself.

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

If you read your first link It backs up the words I posted below and sounds just like the first ammenment "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

Your second link has activities and information PREDATING the United States Constitution. Did you not think I would actually read the links?

So come back with something that is substantial, accurate, and/or relevant please. I would love you to prove this interpretation wrong.

With Rick Perry in the running and maybe becoming the front runner soon for the whole shooting match the liberals will go on the attack with this liberal myth

No-one wants the president to make there choices because Allah came to them and told them to
But to be a Christian and be a practicing Christian as well as being the president, having a day of prayer, etc.. is not against the law nor is it forbidden by anything in our constitution as we are told over and over it is
This will become a hot issue with Perry
watch for it and know when you hear it, your being lied to

The phrase was quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947. The phrase "separation of church and state" itself does not appear in the United States Constitution. The First Amendment states that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Prior to 1947, however separation of church and state was not considered part of the constitution; indeed in 1870s and 1890s unsuccessful attempts were made to amend the constitution to guarantee separation of church and state, a task to be accomplished not by constitutional amendment but by judicial fiat in 1947. [2]
Separation of church and state - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are correct in saying that there is no seperation of church and state in the constitution. In fact the constitution says that the governments role in religion is to " make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"

The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802

The process of drafting the First Amendment made the intent of the Founders abundantly clear; for before they approved the final wording, the First Amendment went through nearly a dozen different iterations and extensive discussions.

Those discussions—recorded in the Congressional Records from June 7 through September 25 of 1789—make clear their intent for the First Amendment. By it, the Founders were saying: "We do not want in America what we had in Great Britain: we don’t want one denomination running the nation. We will not all be Catholics, or Anglicans, or any other single denomination. We do want God’s principles, but we don’t want one denomination running the nation."

This intent was well understood, as evidenced by court rulings after the First Amendment. For example, a 1799 court declared (Runkel v. Winemiller case of 1799):

"By our form of government, the Christian religion is the established religion; and all sects and denominations of Christians are placed on the same equal footing."

Again, note the emphasis: "We do want Christian principles—we do want God’s principles—but we don’t want one denomination to run the nation."

In 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Danbury, Connecticut, heard a rumor that the Congregationalist denomination was about to be made the national denomination. That rumor distressed the Danbury Baptists, as it should have. Consequently, the fired off a litter to President Thomas Jefferson voicing their concern. On January 1, 1802, Jefferson wrote the Danbury Baptists, assuring them that "the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between church and state."


All of this can be easily verified at your local library and possibly on the internet....if people can't find links to anything above that they dont believe me on just tell me and i'll go find one for you.

 

[Truthmatters]

James Madison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


James Madison, Jr. (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American statesman and political theorist. He was the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817) and is hailed as the “Father of the Constitution” for being the primary author of the United States Constitution and the author of the United States Bill of Rights.[1]


The "father of the Constitution" believed in sepration of church and state.

 

[geauxtohell]

Let's get some things correct here.

Thomas Paine, deist
Thomas Jefferson, deist
Ethan Allen, deist
Ben Franklin, polytheist
George Washington, minimal Christian, would not take communion
John Adams, unitarian
James Madison, weak Christian, strong defender of the division of church and state

The world of Christianity as Perry understands it all began with southern triumphalism of the 2d Great Awakening and continued until after the Civil War. Some of the evangelical theology remains weak, while some of it is heresy, meaning error. The rest of the great majority of Christian Americans have no desire to have a country run along evangelincal/fundamentalist lines.

Tis what tis.

It either gives you a massive hard on or is a major turn off.

The percentage of people it is a major turn off for is much higher. W. Bush was much smarter about using his religion in a much more subtle way.

Perry has over played this whole evangelical thing.

Most people deem religion to be a private affair.

Ironic that the people who claim government can do no right want it all over their religion.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Please disprove anything specific I put forward or ask me for more information if you dont think something I said was accurate.

Your response, thus far, does not address any of the factual historic information from my post above.

What part of the reference to Roger Williams [founder of the Rhode Island Colony] in the 17th Century talking about the wall of separation to describe the relationship between the church and state did you not get?

I guess ignoring a fact which has been posted over and over again here is much easier than confronting one's own mendacity.

---
I will do you one better. We also have William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania created within that colony's charter the first recorded declaration of the separation of church and state within a legal framework.

freedomforum.org: William Penn's 'radical' document marks 300th anniversary

Penn even wrote a treatise on the subject in the 17th Century as the separation of Church and State was a deeply held religious belief among Anabaptists (Quakers)
Where did Separation of Church and State Originate?

There we have it a historical fact that the concept of separation of church and state is much much older than Jefferson and even the United States itself.

James Madison - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


James Madison, Jr. (March 16, 1751 – June 28, 1836) was an American statesman and political theorist. He was the fourth President of the United States (1809–1817) and is hailed as the “Father of the Constitution” for being the primary author of the United States Constitution and the author of the United States Bill of Rights.[1]


The "father of the Constitution" believed in sepration of church and state.

Yes if you read madison you will see he was set against a government establishment of religion, just like it says in the constitution.

Nothwithstanding the general progress made within the two last centuries in favour of this branch of liberty, & the full establishment of it, in some parts of our Country, there remains in others a strong bias towards the old error, that without some sort of alliance or coalition between Gov' & Religion neither can be duly supported: Such indeed is the tendency to such a coalition, and such its corrupting influence on both the parties, that the danger cannot be too carefully guarded agst.. And in a Gov' of opinion, like ours, the only effectual guard must be found in the soundness and stability of the general opinion on the subject. Every new & successful example therefore of a perfect separation between ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance. And I have no doubt that every new example, will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Gov will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together;

It was the belief of all sects at one time that the establishment of Religion by law, was right & necessary; that the true religion ought to be established in exclusion of every other; and that the only question to be decided was which was the true religion. The example of Holland proved that a toleration of sects, dissenting from the established sect, was safe & even useful. The example of the Colonies, now States, which rejected religious establishments altogether, proved that all Sects might be safely & advantageously put on a footing of equal & entire freedom.... We are teaching the world the great truth that Govts do better without Kings & Nobles than with them. The merit will be doubled by the other lesson that Religion flourishes in greater purity, without than with the aid of Gov. [James Madison, Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822, The Writings of James Madison, Gaillard Hunt]

However, what he is saying is that government should never establish a religion which does not equal what you define as the seperation of church and state where no govt branch or agent can say or do anything in regards to any religion at all.

He was for preventing the establishment of a government religion but he was also for not prohibiting the free excercise of religion.

Your, and many other liberal's, interpretation of the seperation of church and state actually does prohibit the free excercise of religion.

 

[CryingKoala]

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

YOU are the one attributing separation of church and state to Jefferson. I showed that to be completely wrong. It is a much older concept. Influential to the drafting of the Establishment Clause.

Your own words
The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802


Given what I posted, you have already been debunked.

Separation of church and state was a guiding principle for two of the colonies more than a century prior, you are dead stinking wrong. Get over it.

Do you want to try to shift the goalposts once more or just ignore what I said and keep repeating the same lies over and over?

 

[JakeStarkey]

Madison wanted no interaction of government and church. He believed that American sectarianism worked best in competition with each other (free market religion!, Plymco!!) without interference with or by or in the government. He was most comfortable with organized religion out of the public forum, though he was not able to get that as much as he wanted.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Please disprove anything specific I put forward or ask me for more information if you dont think something I said was accurate.

Your response, thus far, does not address any of the factual historic information from my post above.

What part of the reference to Roger Williams [founder of the Rhode Island Colony] in the 17th Century talking about the wall of separation to describe the relationship between the church and state did you not get?

I guess ignoring a fact which has been posted over and over again here is much easier than confronting one's own mendacity.

---
I will do you one better. We also have William Penn, the founder of Pennsylvania created within that colony's charter the first recorded declaration of the separation of church and state within a legal framework.

freedomforum.org: William Penn's 'radical' document marks 300th anniversary

Penn even wrote a treatise on the subject in the 17th Century as the separation of Church and State was a deeply held religious belief among Anabaptists (Quakers)
Where did Separation of Church and State Originate?

There we have it a historical fact that the concept of separation of church and state is much much older than Jefferson and even the United States itself.

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

YOU are the one attributing separation of church and state to Jefferson. I showed that to be completely wrong. It is a much older concept. Influential to the drafting of the Establishment Clause.

Your own words
The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802


Given what I posted, you have already been debunked.

Separation of church and state was a guiding principle for two of the colonies more than a century prior, you are dead stinking wrong. Get over it.

Do you want to try to shift the goalposts once more or just ignore what I said and keep repeating the same lies over and over?

The phrase "Seperation of church and state" was first brought into the american dialog by jefferson in 1802.

If you read the very links you provided you will find that madison did not use that terminology.

Again, this is about the 5th time you've chosen to not try and verify anything and just came at me with baseless and incorrect information. Please only respond if you can comprehend the topic and disprove what was said with factual and relevant evidence.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Plymco, the spirit of separation of church and state in the colonies began in the 1630s with Roger Williams. Quit trying to pretend this is not so or that it is not germane to undermining your position.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

YOU are the one attributing separation of church and state to Jefferson. I showed that to be completely wrong. It is a much older concept. Influential to the drafting of the Establishment Clause.

Your own words
The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802


Given what I posted, you have already been debunked.

Separation of church and state was a guiding principle for two of the colonies more than a century prior, you are dead stinking wrong. Get over it.

Do you want to try to shift the goalposts once more or just ignore what I said and keep repeating the same lies over and over?

Can you provice evidence that Jefferson was aware of Penn's writings.

 

[CryingKoala]

The phrase "Seperation of church and state" was first brought into the american dialog by jefferson in 1802.

Now you are trying to shift the goalposts. You are weaselwording with a bullshit response that somehow it originated with Jefferson, even though it was a major concept of political and religious thought for a century prior to it. In your own words, you were wrong.

Again, this is about the 5th time you've chosen to not try and verify anything and just came at me with baseless and incorrect information. Please only respond if you can comprehend the topic and disprove what was said with factual and relevant evidence.

Because you were wrong from the get-go and are too stubborn to admit it.

You are giving me bullshit responses to my clear evidence that your assertion was off by a century. Separation of Church and state predated the nation and was the guiding principle of the Establishment Clause. You can't ignore Roger Williams and William Penn and go about your merry business Your attempt to avoid this is getting silly.

It did not begin with Jefferson.

I don't have to care what you misquoted from Madison because your entire premise is already debunked. 2 other posters have already called you out on your plagarism and misrepresentation. It would be redundant to go further.

 

[Truthmatters]

James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


To the House of Representatives of the United States:



Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An Act incorporating the Protestant Episcopal Church in the town of Alexandria, in the District of Columbia," I now return the bill to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the following objections:



Because the bill exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment." The bill enacts into and establishes by law sundry rules and proceedings relative purely to the organization and polity of the church incorporated, and comprehending even the election and removal of the minister of the same, so that no change could be made therein by the particular society or by the general church of which it is a member, and whose authority it recognizes. This particular church, therefore, would so far be a religious establishment by law, a legal force and sanction being given to certain articles in its constitution and administration. Nor can it be considered that the articles thus established are to be taken as the descriptive criteria only of the corporate identity of the society, inasmuch as this identity must depend on other characteristics, as the regulations established are generally unessential and alterable according to the principles and canons by which churches of that denomination govern themselves, and as the injunctions and prohibitions contained in the regulations would be enforced by the penal consequences applicable to a violation of them according to the local law.



Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty. [Writings of James Madison, 8:132-133; The Papers of James Madison: Presidential Series, 3:176-177]

Madison "the Father of the Constitution" left you his definition of the of the constitutions meaning on this issue with his VETO pen.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

The phrase "Seperation of church and state" was first brought into the american dialog by jefferson in 1802.

Now you are trying to shift the goalposts. You are weaselwording with a bullshit response that somehow it originated with Jefferson, even though it was a major concept of political and religious thought for a century prior to it. In your own words, you were wrong.

Again, this is about the 5th time you've chosen to not try and verify anything and just came at me with baseless and incorrect information. Please only respond if you can comprehend the topic and disprove what was said with factual and relevant evidence.

Because you were wrong from the get-go and are too stubborn to admit it.

You are giving me bullshit responses to my clear evidence that your assertion was off by a century. Separation of Church and state predated the nation and was the guiding principle of the Establishment Clause. You can't ignore Roger Williams and William Penn and go about your merry business Your attempt to avoid this is getting silly.

It did not begin with Jefferson.

I don't have to care what you misquoted from Madison because your entire premise is already debunked. 2 other posters have already called you out on your plagarism and misrepresentation. It would be redundant to go further.

So what? It's still NOT in the US Constitution!

Good grief!!

 

[CryingKoala]

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

YOU are the one attributing separation of church and state to Jefferson. I showed that to be completely wrong. It is a much older concept. Influential to the drafting of the Establishment Clause.

Your own words
The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802


Given what I posted, you have already been debunked.

Separation of church and state was a guiding principle for two of the colonies more than a century prior, you are dead stinking wrong. Get over it.

Do you want to try to shift the goalposts once more or just ignore what I said and keep repeating the same lies over and over?

Can you provice evidence that Jefferson was aware of Penn's writings.

Was Pennsylvania and Rhode Island part of the Constitutional Convention or not?
These were bedrock beliefs of the people of those colonies for a century. Anabaptist sects all over the nation were pretty damn vocal on the subject for over a century.

The Danbury letter by Jefferson even used William's term "the wall of separation". Roger Williams was not an obscure figure.

Most importantly you can't just minimize or deny the existence of Williams and Penn's take on the subject. Their beliefs formed the basis for the Establishment Clause in the first place. Those two colonies were created specifically as a refuge from religious persecution. Of course such views would have been well known.

It obviously predates Jefferson's birth so obviously it could not be attributed as his creation. You are working of a fundamentally distorted version of history

 

[Lonestar_logic]

James Madison's Veto Messages by Gene Garman


To the House of Representatives of the United States:



Having examined and considered the bill entitled "An Act incorporating the Protestant Episcopal Church in the town of Alexandria, in the District of Columbia," I now return the bill to the House of Representatives, in which it originated, with the following objections:



Because the bill exceeds the rightful authority to which governments are limited by the essential distinction between civil and religious functions, and violates in particular the article of the Constitution of the United States which declares that "Congress shall make no law respecting a religious establishment." The bill enacts into and establishes by law sundry rules and proceedings relative purely to the organization and polity of the church incorporated, and comprehending even the election and removal of the minister of the same, so that no change could be made therein by the particular society or by the general church of which it is a member, and whose authority it recognizes. This particular church, therefore, would so far be a religious establishment by law, a legal force and sanction being given to certain articles in its constitution and administration. Nor can it be considered that the articles thus established are to be taken as the descriptive criteria only of the corporate identity of the society, inasmuch as this identity must depend on other characteristics, as the regulations established are generally unessential and alterable according to the principles and canons by which churches of that denomination govern themselves, and as the injunctions and prohibitions contained in the regulations would be enforced by the penal consequences applicable to a violation of them according to the local law.



Because the bill vests in the said incorporated church an authority to provide for the support of the poor and the education of poor children of the same, an authority which, being altogether superfluous if the provision is to be the result of pious charity, would be a precedent for giving to religious societies as such a legal agency in carrying into effect a public and civil duty. [Writings of James Madison, 8:132-133; The Papers of James Madison: Presidential Series, 3:176-177]

Madison "the Father of the Constitution" left you his definition of the of the constitutions meaning on this issue with his VETO pen.

And no where does it state there is a separation of church and state.

 

[CryingKoala]

So what? It's still NOT in the US Constitution!

Good grief!!

Its the given interpretation of the Establishment Clause. Good grief.

My guess is you are probably not so literal when it comes to the 2nd Amendment.

 

[Truthmatters]

June 3, 1811



I have recd. fellow Citizens your address, approving my Objection to the Bill contain[in]g a grant of public land, to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House Missippi Terry. Having always regarded the practical distinction between Religion & Civil Govt as essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constn: of the U.S. I could not have otherwise discharged my duty on the occasion which presented itself. Among the various religious Societies in our Country, none have been more vigilant or constant in maintain[in]g that distinction, than the Society of which you make a part, and it is an honourable proof of your sincerity & integrity, that you are as ready to do so, in a case favoring the interest of your brethren, as in other cases. It is but just, at the same time, to the Baptist Church at Salem Meeting House, to remark that their application to the Natl. Legislature does not appear to have contemplated a grant of the Land in question, but on terms that might be equitable to the public as well as to themselves. Accept my friendly respects

James Madison


http://www.sunnetworks.net/~ggarman/madison.html

 

[Truthmatters]

That was the "father of the constitution" writing to a church he vetoed US land given to.

They wrote to protest his decision and veto , that we his reply to them.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

You mean the 16th century as the 17th happened AFTER the stuff Im talking about as did Penn's stuff....get your facts on straight and come back to me when you can disprove what I said below.

YOU are the one attributing separation of church and state to Jefferson. I showed that to be completely wrong. It is a much older concept. Influential to the drafting of the Establishment Clause.

Your own words
The seperation of church and state idea originated from a letter written by thomas jefferson in 1802


Given what I posted, you have already been debunked.

Separation of church and state was a guiding principle for two of the colonies more than a century prior, you are dead stinking wrong. Get over it.

Do you want to try to shift the goalposts once more or just ignore what I said and keep repeating the same lies over and over?

Can you provice evidence that Jefferson was aware of Penn's writings.

Was Pennsylvania and Rhode Island part of the Constitutional Convention or not?
These were bedrock beliefs of the people of those colonies for a century. Anabaptist sects all over the nation were pretty damn vocal on the subject for over a century.

The Danbury letter by Jefferson even used William's term "the wall of separation". Roger Williams was not an obscure figure.

Most importantly you can't just minimize or deny the existence of Williams and Penn's take on the subject. Their beliefs formed the basis for the Establishment Clause in the first place. Those two colonies were created specifically as a refuge from religious persecution. Of course such views would have been well known.

It obviously predates Jefferson's birth so obviously it could not be attributed as his creation. You are working of a fundamentally distorted version of history

So basicailly you're assuming.

You're assuming that because the notion had been around since the 1600's that it was still being discussed a hundred or so years later.

You're also assuming that Jefferson took his cue from the writing sof Penn and the like.

And that brings me to assume you can't find a direct link.

But nevertheless, the Letter that Jefferson wrote was 14 years after the bill of rights was written. So to say that the establishment clause meant separation of church and state is rather a stretch. Especially knowing that Jefferson himself attended church services in the house of Representatives during his Presidency. Which is contrary to this "wall of seperation" fallacy.

 

[Truthmatters]

Now ask yourself why is someont lying to you about what the founders intended the constitution to say about this subject?


Someome is rewriting history because they have a plan for this country that does not Jibe with the constitution.


Those people trying to fool you dont love this country or the founders.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

That was the "father of the constitution" writing to a church he vetoed US land given to.

They wrote to protest his decision and veto , that we his reply to them.

And has nothing at all to do with separation of church and state.