Ante up anti gunners...what will you allow for normal gun owners, what do you want?

[Al Azar]

"... shall not be infringed" needs to be taken in context. The foundation for the entire constitution is encapsulated in its preamble, where it sets forth the function of our government to "promote the common welfare". It's hard to rationalize blocking public safety efforts as being in the spirit of promoting our welfare, but some folks sure manage to twist and torture its meaning to promote their agenda of fear.

How does the government knowing where all the LEGAL guns are "promote the general welfare"?
How has background checks promoted the general welfare?
More to the point, just how much freedom and liberty are you willing to give up to feel safe? Me, I'll feel pretty safe with a Glock on my hip, but you go ahead and do what you do to feel safe.

When you know who the registered owner of a firearm is, you know who isn't. Penalizing possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer is one of the three gun control steps I explained at the git-go, oh so long ago, before we we got off-track into a 2nd Amendment argument.

If someone has a gun and is a criminal....you can arrest them without needing to register guns......it is already the law. If the person has a gun....and has no criminal record....again.....there is no need to register that gun.....if he is stopped by police they run his name and birth date...if no record pops up......no arrest is necessary.....

you just want another layer of inneffective paperwork...and more legal jeapordy for gun owners....why is that?

As it stands now, a criminal may have every right to gun ownership because there is no registration requirement. Such registration doesn't infringe on the rights of a law-abiding citizen but will make it impossible for the criminal to legally possess a gun, increasing the penalty for his misdeeds if he is in possession of a gun.

Felons are already barred from legally buying, owning or carrying a gun....if they are stopped by police and found with any gun...they can be arrested and sent to prison....right now...under existing law........

Registering the guns of law abiding gun owners does not add to that process....in any way, shape or form..........

We were talking about criminals. Now you want to change your argument to a discussion of felons.

No matter. Serious penalties for illegal possession, per post #10, step 3, will get these criminals (including felons) off the street and in prison where they belong.

 

[Al Azar]

To protect us, to put us on an even footing with our potential enemy, the US Armed Forces. That was the intent of the founding fathers when they gave us the right to bear arms, according to what I read here.

Yep......

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

 

[2aguy]

and yet criminals don't do any of those things...and 90% of gun murders are committed by criminals who cannot legally buy, own or carry guns..........

Again....you refuse to say what gun registration actually does.......do you acknowledge that criminals do not have to register illegal guns....via Haynes v. United States.....which means only normal people will be required to register their guns....how does that stop gun murder exactly?

and you can't register fully automatic rifles in France......yet they are easily gotten by French criminals.....and terrorists on government watch lists.........

Registration keeps people in possession of unregistered weapons off the streets. This has been explained.

No...it hasn't ....you said if you register guns it keeps unregistered guns off the street.....and provided no explanation as to how that happens.....

I say if you sprinkle pixie dust in the woods during a full moon it will keep guns off the streets....and that is as valid a method as registering guns.........

Again......do you acknowledge that criminals...felons do not have to register illegal guns under Haynes v. United States.....?

How does requiring law abiding gun owners to do paperwork keep criminals, who cannot legally own guns in the first place, from getting illegal guns....

I am calling you out....explain the mechanics of gun registration....how it physically stops a criminal or mass shooter from getting an illegal gun.........

If your going to quote me, don't respond to something altogether different. I said registration keeps people in possession of unregistered firearms off the streets.

How? There are felons right now...shooting people in Chicago with guns they cannot own or carry......who are not requir d to register those guns...and yet they are carrying them...right now...and shooting people with them....

How does registration physically stop anyone from carrying an unregistered gun?

I don't see how it could. What an extraordinary question.

See post #10: ... serious penalties for possession of firearm not registered the bearer...

Again.......that doesn't answer my question.......we can already arrest criminals who have guns...they do not need to be registered to do that...we can do that right now.......


If a normal gun owner decides to take his gun....even if it is registered like you want...and commit a crime.....we can arrest them...and registering the gun did not stop the crime or help to arrest the guy....he committed a crime with the gun...he can be arrested already...no need to register gums.....

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

What the hell does a nuke have to do with it?

To protect us, to put us on an even footing with our potential enemy, the US Armed Forces. That was the intent of the founding fathers when they gave us the right to bear arms, according to what I read here.

Yep......

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

I see you ignored my response...
Typical of liberals,when it's something they cant answer they ignore it.

I addressed your one-word response by showing how it conflicted with a statement of one of your fellow travelers.

LOL... You cant even keep up with your lies anymore.

 

[2aguy]

Yep......

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

Wrong.......the German government used the exact same arguments you are using.......the exact same arguments............they registered the guns for the exact same reason you have here......20 years later those registration lists were used to disarm gun owners and Jews...........they gassed them.........the communists disarmed the people of the Balkans....and then after the Soviet Union fell in the 90s........the military mirdered their ethnic enemies.....who were already disarmed........

Mexico disarmed its people.....and now the police and military are helping the drug cartels murder Mexicans in the 10s of thousands...right now...today....right across our border...

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

and yet criminals don't do any of those things...and 90% of gun murders are committed by criminals who cannot legally buy, own or carry guns..........

Again....you refuse to say what gun registration actually does.......do you acknowledge that criminals do not have to register illegal guns....via Haynes v. United States.....which means only normal people will be required to register their guns....how does that stop gun murder exactly?

and you can't register fully automatic rifles in France......yet they are easily gotten by French criminals.....and terrorists on government watch lists.........

Registration keeps people in possession of unregistered weapons off the streets. This has been explained.

No...it hasn't ....you said if you register guns it keeps unregistered guns off the street.....and provided no explanation as to how that happens.....

I say if you sprinkle pixie dust in the woods during a full moon it will keep guns off the streets....and that is as valid a method as registering guns.........

Again......do you acknowledge that criminals...felons do not have to register illegal guns under Haynes v. United States.....?

How does requiring law abiding gun owners to do paperwork keep criminals, who cannot legally own guns in the first place, from getting illegal guns....

I am calling you out....explain the mechanics of gun registration....how it physically stops a criminal or mass shooter from getting an illegal gun.........

If your going to quote me, don't respond to something altogether different. I said registration keeps people in possession of unregistered firearms off the streets.

How do you figure?

Sigh. Post #10, step 3.

No need to go back and look at something that's bullshit.
Registering firearms does nothing to keep guns out of the hands of criminals.

 

[2aguy]

Yep......

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

The only reason to register guns is to ban and confiscate them.....that is why we are talking about it now.....

 

[Skull Pilot]

whatever it takes to keep people free.

So the firepower of individuals should at least equal that of the gov't? When have firearms kept American people free?

This happened in the 1990s.......

How gun control led to genocide in this small European country

In July 1995, in Srebrenica — an area that had been officially declared a United Nations safe zone — the Serbian army perpetrated genocide against the Bosnians who had taken refuge there. The United Nations did nothing to stop the genocide. Those weeks — bloody, devastating and heartbreaking — were a high-speed version of what was happening in Bosnia and Herzegovina during the 1992-95 war.

---

Those who were attacked, mostly Muslims of Bosnia and other non-Serbs, did not have weapons to defend themselves as the gun control laws in communist Yugoslavia had been very strict. The procedure to obtain a license for firearms was so lengthy and so severe that most applicants were refused. Many of the individuals who successfully acquired a license were only given permission to own hunting guns, which were not particularly helpful in war-like circumstances. -

As a result, citizens were generally unarmed against the Serbian Army attackers. Civilians of Bosnia were forced to defend themselves with weapons they stole from local police stations that were already very limited in their resources. Bosnians started to organize “territorial defense” forces, which later grew into the Army of Bosnia-Herzegovina. People in urban areas were more likely to come across some sort of weapon since they were in proximity of police stations and similar institutions where they could obtain firearms. Most of the genocide and brutal mass killings happened in the small cities and rural areas that did not have similar resources available and were easily cut off from the rest of the country. Srebrenica is one tragic example of such territory. - See more at: How gun control led to genocide in this small European country

Take a look at a country where everyone owns a gun: Afghanistan. Guns have not brought peace there.

Well in all honesty Afghanistan has been invaded so many times one can say that their violence was imported

OK then, can you supply another place/time when everyone was allowed to own and carry weapons that was peaceful?

We're quite peaceful now right here in this country for the most part all of our violence is concentrated in a few urban areas

 

[Al Azar]

Registration keeps people in possession of unregistered weapons off the streets. This has been explained.

No...it hasn't ....you said if you register guns it keeps unregistered guns off the street.....and provided no explanation as to how that happens.....

I say if you sprinkle pixie dust in the woods during a full moon it will keep guns off the streets....and that is as valid a method as registering guns.........

Again......do you acknowledge that criminals...felons do not have to register illegal guns under Haynes v. United States.....?

How does requiring law abiding gun owners to do paperwork keep criminals, who cannot legally own guns in the first place, from getting illegal guns....

I am calling you out....explain the mechanics of gun registration....how it physically stops a criminal or mass shooter from getting an illegal gun.........

If your going to quote me, don't respond to something altogether different. I said registration keeps people in possession of unregistered firearms off the streets.

How? There are felons right now...shooting people in Chicago with guns they cannot own or carry......who are not requir d to register those guns...and yet they are carrying them...right now...and shooting people with them....

How does registration physically stop anyone from carrying an unregistered gun?

I don't see how it could. What an extraordinary question.

See post #10: ... serious penalties for possession of firearm not registered the bearer...

Again.......that doesn't answer my question.......we can already arrest criminals who have guns...they do not need to be registered to do that...we can do that right now.......


If a normal gun owner decides to take his gun....even if it is registered like you want...and commit a crime.....we can arrest them...and registering the gun did not stop the crime or help to arrest the guy....he committed a crime with the gun...he can be arrested already...no need to register gums.....

Now you're switching to arrests? No.

Despite what someone may be convicted of, if he was also in possession of an unregistered firearm he can be put away for much longer. That's the point of registering firearms.

 

[IsaacNewton]

I will allow you only lemon frosting on sponge cake for your birthdays. No vanilla cake, no vanilla or chocolate frosting. You can have fancy fringe frosting but no roses and no writing on your cake. It must look like a plain generic birthday cake you'd find at a supermarket bakery.

What do I want? I want every single human to never again bitch about a 'war on Christmas' and instead just enjoy the godd#$mn holiday and allow the rest of us to do the same. No bitching about cups, or nativity scenes or lack of nativity scenes or nativity scenes with halloween characters standing in for the wise men and the baby Jesus. And since we're here no whining about Halloween, the costumes, the fake 'it's satanic blah blah' nonsense, and just let children have a day where they can dress up and forget the adults exist.

As for guns, high powered rifles a 5 round clip maximum, no sale of weapons designed for military use sold to the public (you have a burning desire to use them join the Marines), extreme background checks and psych evaluations, a 90 day waiting period, and the gun owner forfeits his/her entire financial worth to anyone they wrongly point a gun at or anyone they shoot outside the law, in addition to the criminal charges. There are more but get started on that, I'll be eating delicious vanilla birthday cake with vanilla frosting and watching skeet shooting in RIO.

 

[Al Azar]

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

The only reason to register guns is to ban and confiscate them.....that is why we are talking about it now.....

Thank you for expressing your opinion on this. The rest of us will continue the discussion.

 

[oldsoul]

Great. One down. Have a nice day while the rest of us discuss gun control.

View attachment 85287
Good luck repealing that one...

Not necessary. Our court will clarify its purpose and meaning as it is applied to 21st century America.

So, you are in support of an end run around the COTUS. I guess I'm not surprised...

The court has modified its position on issues as we evolve as a society. Remember the old days, when only human beings had personhood status, not corporations?

Things change as judicial wisdom changes. Adapt, or die.

So now you want me to agree with you or die. Seems legit.

 

[Skull Pilot]

The problem with guns here, is the culture behind it. I was listening to an interview with a Norwegian on their gun culture.

Like Americans, many Norwegians own guns. But according to Seierstad, the culture of gun ownership is very different in the two countries. In Norway, for example, it's uncommon to see guns outside organized settings like gun clubs or during hunting season.


“Yes, there’s a high percentage of gun ownership in Norway," she says, "but those guns are used mainly one week in the year during the hunting of elk season ... the rest of the year it’s locked down and stored.”


Even US and Norwegian law enforcement have different approaches to firearms.


“The police has not been armed in Norway,” Seierstad says. “People in the US could say, ‘Well, isn’t that scary?’ Well when the police is not armed, the drug dealer is not armed, the criminals are not armed, because no one is armed.”

After Orlando, Americans and US lawmakers are arguing over whether to strengthen (or even weaken) gun regulations. But after the attacks in Oslo and Utoya, Norwegian law didn't change.


The Norwegian government did set up a committee that proposed tighter gun laws — including mandatory medical background checks, regular checks on weapon owners and better lists accounting for guns with lead ammunition — but none of these proposals went into effect.


Why? The reason was pretty simple.

“We had quite restrictive laws,” Seierstad explains. "We have very very few gun accidents and gun murders.”​

You don't see testosterone impaired idiots walking around like this:

In my mind common sense gun control would look at changing the culture as much as changing any laws. I'd have no problem with some sort of education course in safe use, legal issues etc before you can purchase gun. I'd also have no problem with having certain types of weapons banned, and the purchase of large amounts of weapons and ammunition causing a red flag to be raised. Universal background checks.

I understand where you are coming from, but ask yourself this: How likely is it that someone is going to rob any of those guys in your picture? Pretty low right? That would be kinda stupid if you ask me. Now, what if the vast majority of people in the US where concealed carriers? How long do you think it would take before criminals would change, if chances were pretty good that granny was "packin' heat"?

What are the chances that we'll see an increase in drunken shooting incidents? Guns used first in lieu of other dispute resolutions? And, what are the chances those guys are going to get robbed anyway? Low.

More people than ever are applying for and getting concealed carry permits
Have there been running gun fights in the streets by people with legal CCW permits?

No in fact CCW permit holders tend to be some of the most peaceful law abiding people in society who would rather avoid a situation where they might have to use their weapons than play tough guy

And they have traditionally received those permits following background checks, firearms registration and training.

Oh, and no infringement of rights.

Most people I know have no problem making sure felons cannot get guns and I didn't say anything about the permitting process did I?

But since I did have to submit to multiple background checks, fingerprinting and pay for safety classes why can't I have a magazine with more than a 10 round capacity?

 

[Skull Pilot]

"... shall not be infringed" needs to be taken in context. The foundation for the entire constitution is encapsulated in its preamble, where it sets forth the function of our government to "promote the common welfare". It's hard to rationalize blocking public safety efforts as being in the spirit of promoting our welfare, but some folks sure manage to twist and torture its meaning to promote their agenda of fear.

How does the government knowing where all the LEGAL guns are "promote the general welfare"?
How has background checks promoted the general welfare?
More to the point, just how much freedom and liberty are you willing to give up to feel safe? Me, I'll feel pretty safe with a Glock on my hip, but you go ahead and do what you do to feel safe.

When you know who the registered owner of a firearm is, you know who isn't. Penalizing possession of a firearm not registered to the bearer is one of the three gun control steps I explained at the git-go, oh so long ago, before we we got off-track into a 2nd Amendment argument.

If someone has a gun and is a criminal....you can arrest them without needing to register guns......it is already the law. If the person has a gun....and has no criminal record....again.....there is no need to register that gun.....if he is stopped by police they run his name and birth date...if no record pops up......no arrest is necessary.....

you just want another layer of inneffective paperwork...and more legal jeapordy for gun owners....why is that?

As it stands now, a criminal may have every right to gun ownership because there is no registration requirement. Such registration doesn't infringe on the rights of a law-abiding citizen but will make it impossible for the criminal to legally possess a gun, increasing the penalty for his misdeeds if he is in possession of a gun.

So a criminal will buy a gun illegally and register it?

 

[oldsoul]

Tell that to the Jews in Nazi Germany, the British, the Australians, and others.
Strawman my ass.
There is no reason for the government to know where the guns are other than eventual confiscation.

Ever wonder why Canada gave up on the registration of long guns?

"Former Ontario Provincial Police Commissioner Julian Fantino opposed the gun registry, stating in a press release in 2003:

We have an ongoing gun crisis including firearms-related homicides lately in Toronto, and a law registering firearms has neither deterred these crimes nor helped us solve any of them. None of the guns we know to have been used were registered, although we believe that more than half of them were smuggled into Canada from the United States. The firearms registry is long on philosophy and short on practical results considering the money could be more effectively used for security against terrorism as well as a host of other public safety initiatives."
But, then again we are talking about the Canadians after all, we are SOOOO much smarter than them, right? We would do it right, and make it effective, right?


Guess the British weren't much smarter.

I thought you wanted to talk about confiscation.

There's really no point. It simply does not work.

Which is exactly why no one, anywhere, attempts it. It's an empty soundbite that has no place in a discussion of gun control.

Unless you're trying to defend an indefensible position.

So, tell the class what a national registry will do to stop gun crimes.
There must be some evidence that registries work right?

Why would you need a national registry duplicating state registries?

Not all states have registries, therefore it would not be duplicating anything. Aside from that, I don't want a national, or state registry. Have you not been following my argument against any registry?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yep......

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

What reason do you have to know what guns I own? None. I passed all the background checks that have been asked of me and have proven that I am not a criminal. You have no valid need to know if I own or what guns I own.

How will registering my guns stop gun crime committed by criminals with illegally obtained and unregistered guns?

 

[Al Azar]

Great. One down. Have a nice day while the rest of us discuss gun control.

View attachment 85287
Good luck repealing that one...

Not necessary. Our court will clarify its purpose and meaning as it is applied to 21st century America.

So, you are in support of an end run around the COTUS. I guess I'm not surprised...

The court has modified its position on issues as we evolve as a society. Remember the old days, when only human beings had personhood status, not corporations?

Things change as judicial wisdom changes. Adapt, or die.

So now you want me to agree with you or die. Seems legit.

I think that if you were capable of reading what is written rather than what you wish were written, you'd have thrown in the towel long ago.

The fact is that we do exercise gun control in this country and the only argument is over his much is necessary. We have differing opinions and the prevailing view will become the law of the land.

Suck it up. Times change. We don't get to own slaves anymore. As a matter of fact, Black people (and even women!) can vote now. Homosexuals are free to marry and raise families and children can divorce their parents.

We register motor vehicles, regulate their use and license their operators all in the name of public safety. That doesn't make all vehicles safe to operate or prevent anyone from driving without a license, but it does make our public thoroughfares much safer than the absence of these modest regulations. And none of it interferes with any good citizen owning and operating a motor vehicle.

I expect that there will come a day before too long when we'll regulate the acquisition and use of firearms with an equivalent eye to public safety. I don't see how any special interest can prevent it.

 

[oldsoul]

Registration keeps people in possession of unregistered weapons off the streets. This has been explained.[/QUOTE]
No, it has not. How does it do that? If I, a law abiding citizen, were to obtain a gun, not register it, how would your registry get me off the streets? Answer, I would have to commit a crime, or have someone turn me in for failing to register. The law did nothing but make a criminal out of someone who is not otherwise a criminal. Maybe that is the point though.

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

Um, if you do not remember and LEARN from history, you are doomed to repeat it. So, what have you learned from the Nazi model? The Soviet model? Mao's model? See a pattern developing here? It keeps happening.

and yet criminals don't do any of those things...and 90% of gun murders are committed by criminals who cannot legally buy, own or carry guns..........

Again....you refuse to say what gun registration actually does.......do you acknowledge that criminals do not have to register illegal guns....via Haynes v. United States.....which means only normal people will be required to register their guns....how does that stop gun murder exactly?

and you can't register fully automatic rifles in France......yet they are easily gotten by French criminals.....and terrorists on government watch lists.........

Registration keeps people in possession of unregistered weapons off the streets. This has been explained.

No...it hasn't ....you said if you register guns it keeps unregistered guns off the street.....and provided no explanation as to how that happens.....

I say if you sprinkle pixie dust in the woods during a full moon it will keep guns off the streets....and that is as valid a method as registering guns.........

Again......do you acknowledge that criminals...felons do not have to register illegal guns under Haynes v. United States.....?

How does requiring law abiding gun owners to do paperwork keep criminals, who cannot legally own guns in the first place, from getting illegal guns....

I am calling you out....explain the mechanics of gun registration....how it physically stops a criminal or mass shooter from getting an illegal gun.........

If your going to quote me, don't respond to something altogether different. I said registration keeps people in possession of unregistered firearms off the streets.

How? There are felons right now...shooting people in Chicago with guns they cannot own or carry......who are not requir d to register those guns...and yet they are carrying them...right now...and shooting people with them....

How does registration physically stop anyone from carrying an unregistered gun?

I don't see how it could. What an extraordinary question.

See post #10: ... serious penalties for possession of firearm not registered the bearer...

Finally, we agree on something. Registries cannot do what you say they WILL do.

We were talking about criminals. Now you want to change your argument to a discussion of felons.

News flash, felons ARE criminals. I know it's developing news right now so I can't expect everyone to know about it yet. Just an FYI for you.

 

[oldsoul]

View attachment 85287
Good luck repealing that one...

Not necessary. Our court will clarify its purpose and meaning as it is applied to 21st century America.

So, you are in support of an end run around the COTUS. I guess I'm not surprised...

The court has modified its position on issues as we evolve as a society. Remember the old days, when only human beings had personhood status, not corporations?

Things change as judicial wisdom changes. Adapt, or die.

So now you want me to agree with you or die. Seems legit.

I think that if you were capable of reading what is written rather than what you wish were written, you'd have thrown in the towel long ago.

The fact is that we do exercise gun control in this country and the only argument is over his much is necessary. We have differing opinions and the prevailing view will become the law of the land.

Suck it up. Times change. We don't get to own slaves anymore. As a matter of fact, Black people (and even women!) can vote now. Homosexuals are free to marry and raise families and children can divorce their parents.

We register motor vehicles, regulate their use and license their operators all in the name of public safety. That doesn't make all vehicles safe to operate or prevent anyone from driving without a license, but it does make our public thoroughfares much safer than the absence of these modest regulations. And none of it interferes with any good citizen owning and operating a motor vehicle.

I expect that there will come a day before too long when we'll regulate the acquisition and use of firearms with an equivalent eye to public safety. I don't see how any special interest can prevent it.

I think that if you were capable of reading what is written rather than what you wish were written, you'd have thrown in the towel long ago

Oh, right because you have presented overwhelming evidence that your position is the right one. Oh, wait, no, you have not presented ANY evidence aside from platitudes and antidotes.

I expect that there will come a day before too long when we'll regulate the acquisition and use of firearms with an equivalent eye to public safety. I don't see how any special interest can prevent it.

I sincerely hope you are wrong. Our Republic WILL flounder and fail, just like every other society that has allowed tyranny to take hold.

 

[Coyote]

One of your comrades just admitted that, despite claims that the founding fathers wanted citizens to arm themselves against an oppressive government, we don't need to worry about that anymore so it doesn't matter what they intended. You two need to sort this out and then attempt to present a united argument, such as it may be.

We need to worry about our government....just ask the Germans...they registered their guns using the same dumb ass arguments you are using right now....the exact same arguments.....when they trusted their government, and expected it to protect them.....20 years later....their government sent 12 million Europeans to the gas chambers....unarmed Europeans....

We get it. The Nazis did very bad things. Can we get back to gun control in the 21st century US now?

That is getting back to gun control in the 21st century.........they disarmed their people and 20 years later murdered them...because the people didn't have guns..........same thing happened in the Balkans in the 90s...and Rwanda in the 90s.....and it is happening right now in Mexico.....today........again and again unarmed people are murdered by their governments...or the government can't stop one group from slaughtering another group......and you guys pretend like that has no bearing on current discussions......

For the umpteenth time, registration and background checks today in the US is unrelated to disarming Europeans in days of yore.

If all you want to talk about is disarmament, start a thread on that. Some of us are still focused on the subject of this thread.

The only reason to register guns is to ban and confiscate them.....that is why we are talking about it now.....

We register automobiles. We already ban some types of guns. No one is talking about banning or confiscating all guns or even most.