Any REAL evidence that Russian weapons were used to down the Malaysian flight or not?

[dilloduck]

It is a Russian invasion. When foreign troops and people cross the border with weapons and do battle with government troops it is called an invasion. And on May 25 the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for a government in Kiev. The Parliament just gave complete control of the government to the guy they elected as President.
The world can never accept the equipment of rebel armies or entities that are not official governments with weapons of the type Russian has unilaterally decided to equip the so called "separatist with.
Now name some of the separatist leaders that are actual Ukrainians and not Russians who lived in Russia just a few months ago and were employed by the Russian military.

You didn't look at the map that shows the voting stats did you ?

I glanced at the 2010 election map. I don't think it has anything to do with the May 25, 2014 election.

Look at any map. The east has been pro Russia for years---this isn't any recent development caused by invading Russians.

 

[dilloduck]

The question is whether Ukranians living in land that historically is the Ukraine should have to live in Russia because a bunch of Russians moved in when the Soviets had a boot over their necks.

Are they complaining or is it just the west that doesn't like the way things are shaping up ?

probably both, but your reality depends upon it being justifiable for a majority of Russian speakers to be able to force a minority of non-Russian speakers to separate from their historical homeland and join Russia. Once you go down that road, the Baltics are next.

NATO members ? I doubt it seriously.

 

[Camp]

on May 25 the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for a government in Kiev.

And before that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk overwhelmingly voted to SEPARATE from the US/EU backed oligarchy. And why did the Kiev junta "prime minister" resign yesterday, after being invited to the white house even before the elections and everything:

The elections in Donetsk and Luhansk were not and have not been recognized by any international community as legitimate elections. They were unconstitutional farce elections that large numbers of the citizens of the region stayed away from.
Russian propagandist call the constitutional impeachment by parliament in Kyiv as a junta. The world community does not. They recognize that Kiev followed their constitution to oust a President that was stealing billions of dollars from the government and Ukrainian people and turning to Russia for cover and support.

 

[dilloduck]

on May 25 the people of Ukraine overwhelmingly voted for a government in Kiev.

And before that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk overwhelmingly voted to SEPARATE from the US/EU backed oligarchy. And why did the Kiev junta "prime minister" resign yesterday, after being invited to the white house even before the elections and everything:

The elections in Donetsk and Luhansk were not and have not been recognized by any international community as legitimate elections. They were unconstitutional farce elections that large numbers of the citizens of the region stayed away from.
Russian propagandist call the constitutional impeachment by parliament in Kyiv as a junta. The world community does not. They recognize that Kiev followed their constitution to oust a President that was stealing billions of dollars from the government and Ukrainian people and turning to Russia for cover and support.

and who all was involved in trying to get a pro western government to replace him ?

 

[bendog]

And before that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk overwhelmingly voted to SEPARATE from the US/EU backed oligarchy. And why did the Kiev junta "prime minister" resign yesterday, after being invited to the white house even before the elections and everything:

The elections in Donetsk and Luhansk were not and have not been recognized by any international community as legitimate elections. They were unconstitutional farce elections that large numbers of the citizens of the region stayed away from.
Russian propagandist call the constitutional impeachment by parliament in Kyiv as a junta. The world community does not. They recognize that Kiev followed their constitution to oust a President that was stealing billions of dollars from the government and Ukrainian people and turning to Russia for cover and support.

and who all was involved in trying to get a pro western government to replace him ?

I don't think anyone can dispute the soviets and some western actors have tried to have influence. But, when you talk of non-national elections to allow some part of a historical homeland to separate .... you're going down a new road.

And, I don't think its at all far fetched to think Putin would seek to subvert the Baltics.

 

[Camp]

You didn't look at the map that shows the voting stats did you ?

I glanced at the 2010 election map. I don't think it has anything to do with the May 25, 2014 election.

Look at any map. The east has been pro Russia for years---this isn't any recent development caused by invading Russians.

That is not what the map says about the 2010 election. Yanukovich ran on a platform of neutrality and a promise of cooperation and ties to both the EU and Russia. When he turned on his promise to maintain the neutral footing that would allow relationships with the EU the parliament turned on him.
Pro Russia has never meant separating from Ukraine or becoming part of Russia. It has meant doing business with Russia and having good relations with Russia. Russian speaking Ukrainians see themselves as different and apart from Russians who live in Russia or what many of them refer to as "Moscowvites".

 

[dilloduck]

I glanced at the 2010 election map. I don't think it has anything to do with the May 25, 2014 election.

Look at any map. The east has been pro Russia for years---this isn't any recent development caused by invading Russians.

That is not what the map says about the 2010 election. Yanukovich ran on a platform of neutrality and a promise of cooperation and ties to both the EU and Russia. When he turned on his promise to maintain the neutral footing that would allow relationships with the EU the parliament turned on him.
Pro Russia has never meant separating from Ukraine or becoming part of Russia. It has meant doing business with Russia and having good relations with Russia. Russian speaking Ukrainians see themselves as different and apart from Russians who live in Russia or what many of them refer to as "Moscowvites".

Why were they planning to ban the Russian language ?

 

[Camp]

Look at any map. The east has been pro Russia for years---this isn't any recent development caused by invading Russians.

That is not what the map says about the 2010 election. Yanukovich ran on a platform of neutrality and a promise of cooperation and ties to both the EU and Russia. When he turned on his promise to maintain the neutral footing that would allow relationships with the EU the parliament turned on him.
Pro Russia has never meant separating from Ukraine or becoming part of Russia. It has meant doing business with Russia and having good relations with Russia. Russian speaking Ukrainians see themselves as different and apart from Russians who live in Russia or what many of them refer to as "Moscowvites".

Why were they planning to ban the Russian language ?

Nobody is trying to ban the Russian language. A law was passed in 2012 that made a second language an official language of that region if more than 10% of the people in the region spoke that language. Moldovian and Hungarian were even made official in areas.
Rescinding this law to make Ukraine only official language has angered Russian speakers and is used as propaganda to claim Russian language is going to be banned. Majority of Ukraine want old law brought back because very rare to find a Ukraine person who does not speak Russian and rescinding it made no sense. No one cares except far right wing and they have lost almost all influence when parliament was neutralized yesterday.

 

[Discombobulated]

Look at any map. The east has been pro Russia for years---this isn't any recent development caused by invading Russians.

That is not what the map says about the 2010 election. Yanukovich ran on a platform of neutrality and a promise of cooperation and ties to both the EU and Russia. When he turned on his promise to maintain the neutral footing that would allow relationships with the EU the parliament turned on him.
Pro Russia has never meant separating from Ukraine or becoming part of Russia. It has meant doing business with Russia and having good relations with Russia. Russian speaking Ukrainians see themselves as different and apart from Russians who live in Russia or what many of them refer to as "Moscowvites".

Why were they planning to ban the Russian language ?

Another quote from Russian state controlled media.

 

[Camp]

That is not what the map says about the 2010 election. Yanukovich ran on a platform of neutrality and a promise of cooperation and ties to both the EU and Russia. When he turned on his promise to maintain the neutral footing that would allow relationships with the EU the parliament turned on him.
Pro Russia has never meant separating from Ukraine or becoming part of Russia. It has meant doing business with Russia and having good relations with Russia. Russian speaking Ukrainians see themselves as different and apart from Russians who live in Russia or what many of them refer to as "Moscowvites".

Why were they planning to ban the Russian language ?

Another quote from Russian state controlled media.

Hard for Americans to comprehend that in Eastern Europe almost everyone but the very old people speak at least two languages. The people under thirty almost always speak three.

Standard joke in eastern Europe. How do you tell who is American? They are the one who only speaks one language.

 

[dannyboys]

But you are allowed to point fingers from day one without any evidence. 15 minutes left to present evidence.

Oh, and inspectors should have been there to inspect the genocide in progress, which is being carried out by US/EU backed Kiev junta. had they been there they would not have missed the Malaysian flight.

Your allowed to have suspects if you have one other than Russia please share.

I shared it it's in the rubber room. This thread is finished, nothing to discuss here.

Well then you'll be fucking off from this thread right?
The Russian military dressed up like 'Separatists' were the only people with training to fire the missile.
You're a fucking nitt witt. Like go away and pick your ass hole some more.

 

[dannyboys]

You can't get evidence until investigators are allowed into crash area and the Russian backed separatist are keeping people out. Given the plane was shot down in a separatist controlled area which is near the Russian border do you have a better candidate for who's weapons could have been used?

Yup. From what I've read the Russian Seperatists shot the plane down.

Of course all the lefty's on the board make it look like Putin stood on the hill with a rocket launcher and shot it down. How absurd.

Russian Separatists shot it down. Not the Russian military.

Russian separatists ARE Russian military. Where the fuck do you think they are getting their arms? Off fucking E Bay?

 

[pvsi]

More evidence that Putin downed the plane: Clinton says so:

Hillary Clinton: Putin 'bears responsibility' in downing of MH17 Says his plan must 'be pushed back'
The U.S. and Europe must unite to oppose Russia's President, Hillary Clinton tells Fareed Zakaria. Putin's partly to blame in the downing of MH17, she says. FULL STORY Hillary Clinton blames Putin in MH17 shootdown - CNN.com

 

[RWHeathenGamer]

No it hasn't. And the most glaring proof is that almost all the "leaders" of the so called "separatist groups are not from Ukraine. They are Russian citizens and mostly from Moscow as well as being "former" military officers. The separatist ride around in the latest Russian armored military vehicles and they carry Russian weapons. They shot down aircraft with Russian weapons before MH 17 and have shot down aircraft with Russian weapons afther MH 17.

The people who live there speak Russian, identify with Russian culture and voted that way in the last election. Don't try to pretend this is a Russian invasion.

there are 100 million AK 47s in the world------not too surprising they would have a Russian weapon. I'm sure the Ukraine does too.

but it isn't Russia. And the only reason Russians are there is because the Soviets put them there to control the local populace. So, maybe the Russians should go home.

Uh, no, wrong again.

Donetsk was founded in 1869 when the Welsh businessman John Hughes built a steel plant and several coal mines in the southern part of the Russian Empire at Aleksandrovka (Ukrainian: Олександрівк&#1072. The town initially was given the name Hughesovka (Yuzovka; Russian: Юзовка; Ukrainian: Юзівк&#1072.[4] In its early period, it received many immigrants from Wales, especially the town of Merthyr Tydfil.[5] By the beginning of the 20th century, Yuzovka had approximately 50,000 inhabitants,[6] and had attained the status of a city in 1917.[7] The main district of "Hughezovka" is named English Colony, and the British origin of the city is reflected in its layout and architecture.

Donetsk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Donetsk is Russia.

This isn't even a secession issue exclusively, many just want more local autonomy and federalization of power. There wasn't any problems in the East until the elected government was overthrown.

 

[DrDoomNGloom]

You can't get evidence until investigators are allowed into crash area and the Russian backed separatist are keeping people out. Given the plane was shot down in a separatist controlled area which is near the Russian border do you have a better candidate for who's weapons could have been used?

Yup. From what I've read the Russian Seperatists shot the plane down.

Of course all the lefty's on the board make it look like Putin stood on the hill with a rocket launcher and shot it down. How absurd.

Russian Seperatists shot it down. Not the Russian military.

Don't do much current news, huh??

As Ukraine Forces Make Headway, Russia Is Said to Step Up Role

By DAVID M. HERSZENHORN and MICHAEL R. GORDONJULY 25, 2014

KIEV, Ukraine — Russia has stepped up its direct involvement in fighting between the Ukranian military and separatist insurgents, unleashing artillery attacks from Russian territory and massing heavy weapons along the border, Ukrainian and American officials say.

Russia’s aim, the officials say, appears to be to stem and perhaps roll back gains made by government forces, who have been retaking rebel-held territory and trying to seal the border. They say Russia’s accelerated intervention raises the prospect of more direct and more heated fighting between Ukraine and Russia.

 

[pvsi]

The people who live there speak Russian, identify with Russian culture and voted that way in the last election. Don't try to pretend this is a Russian invasion.

there are 100 million AK 47s in the world------not too surprising they would have a Russian weapon. I'm sure the Ukraine does too.

but it isn't Russia. And the only reason Russians are there is because the Soviets put them there to control the local populace. So, maybe the Russians should go home.

Uh, no, wrong again.

Donetsk was founded in 1869 when the Welsh businessman John Hughes built a steel plant and several coal mines in the southern part of the Russian Empire at Aleksandrovka (Ukrainian: Олександрівк&#1072. The town initially was given the name Hughesovka (Yuzovka; Russian: Юзовка; Ukrainian: Юзівк&#1072.[4] In its early period, it received many immigrants from Wales, especially the town of Merthyr Tydfil.[5] By the beginning of the 20th century, Yuzovka had approximately 50,000 inhabitants,[6] and had attained the status of a city in 1917.[7] The main district of "Hughezovka" is named English Colony, and the British origin of the city is reflected in its layout and architecture.

Donetsk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Donetsk is Russia.

This isn't even a secession issue exclusively, many just want more local autonomy and federalization of power. There wasn't any problems in the East until the elected government was overthrown.

EXACTLY. I traveled to Ukraine when I was about 12 in about 1985 with my fathers friend, it was all peaceful, all like Russia, like one nation. We went from Kiev to I believe Dnepropetrovsk by boat. All the problems there started after collapse of USSR for which 3 American presidents tried to take credit (Reagan, Bush1 AND Clinton)

 

[dilloduck]

You can't get evidence until investigators are allowed into crash area and the Russian backed separatist are keeping people out. Given the plane was shot down in a separatist controlled area which is near the Russian border do you have a better candidate for who's weapons could have been used?

Yup. From what I've read the Russian Seperatists shot the plane down.

Of course all the lefty's on the board make it look like Putin stood on the hill with a rocket launcher and shot it down. How absurd.

Russian Separatists shot it down. Not the Russian military.

Russian separatists ARE Russian military. Where the fuck do you think they are getting their arms? Off fucking E Bay?

Where in the hell do you think the Ukraines got their weapons ?

 

[blackhawk]

Yup. From what I've read the Russian Seperatists shot the plane down.

Of course all the lefty's on the board make it look like Putin stood on the hill with a rocket launcher and shot it down. How absurd.

Russian Separatists shot it down. Not the Russian military.

Russian separatists ARE Russian military. Where the fuck do you think they are getting their arms? Off fucking E Bay?

Where in the hell do you think the Ukraines got their weapons ?

Same place the thing is the missile was fired from terrority controlled by the seperatist not by the Ukraine military.

 

[dilloduck]

KIEV, Ukraine — Ukraine may have to arm itself with nuclear weapons if the United States and other world powers refuse to enforce a security pact that obligates them to reverse the Moscow-backed takeover of Crimea, a member of the Ukraine parliament told USA TODAY.

Ukraine may have to go nuclear, says Kiev lawmaker

 

[deltex1]

Come on PeeVee...we have satellites that can watch the Rooskies jerking off in their foxholes....we know all we need to know. Only Obabble cannot deal with what we know.