Zone1 Are any Christians here interested to know WHY Jews don’t believe Jesus was the Messiah?

[Lisa558]

I quote the words of Jesus.

Yes, yes….we know. That’s what the NT said he said.

 

[TruthNotBS]

If you ask "Chasidim is fringe?" then you don't understand what Chasidism is. It is not a singular group but an umbrella term for a variety of groups, families, dynasties, practices and beliefs.

Then your claim that "Many" Orthodox Jews take a particular position. How did you measure that? I work and live with thousands of Orthodox Jews and none has ever espoused or supported that position. Even the chasids I know. And the "one told me" bit? I find that equally spurious, at least in that form. There are many Jewish laws which are not applied to non-Jews, animals or chairs. Sometimes, the talmud explans that if a non-Jew is involved in a case, the law doesn't apply in the same way that it wouldn't apply to an animal. This is not about equating "status" beyond the legal application of a point of law.

Gentiles Are Human

Refuting the accusation that the Talmud considers gentiles to be sub-human.

talmud.faithweb.com

Maybe you can debunk what this Christian missionary says in response to rabbi Tovia Singer's arguments. Singer makes the following argument for Isaiah 9:5 (verse 6 in Christian Bibles):

​

Dr Michael Brown responds to the above argument, by arguing that the past tense or perfect tense in " a child has been given to us", is a so-called "prophetic perfect":

​

 

[BS Filter]

historical evidence ... "apocalyptic prophet of the new millennium"

"that prior to the disturbance at the Temple" ... jesus was not a jew, renounced the liar moses and with others sought liberation theology, self determination than the vial 10 commandments used to persecute and victimize the innocent. judaism.

- as the heavenly religion of antiquity granted a&e for their journey - the true path for remission to paradise. the triumph of good vs evil.

Scripture disagrees with you. Jesus referred to himself as I AM.

 

[BS Filter]

Yes, yes….we know. That’s what the NT said he said.

Agree. If you find this category unpleasant, there are others you may enjoy more.

 

[Meriweather]

If you find this category unpleasant, there are others you may enjoy more.

Or perhaps we could return to the original theme of Jewish beliefs?

 

[Lisa558]

Scripture disagrees with you. Jesus referred to himself as I AM.

You sure enjoy telling Jews they’re wrong.

 

[Lisa558]

Or perhaps we could return to the original theme of Jewish beliefs?

Sad that the poster above tries to harass the Jewish OP (me) and run her out of the thread. Appreciate your input.

 

[BS Filter]

Or perhaps we could return to the original theme of Jewish beliefs?

Read the title of the thread.

 

[BS Filter]

You sure enjoy telling Jews they’re wrong.

Nope. If I upset you, put me on ignore.

 

[Meriweather]

Read the title of the thread.

Are you contributing to why Jews do NOT believe Jesus was the Messiah?

 

[BS Filter]

Are you contributing to why Jews do NOT believe Jesus was the Messiah?

You don't set the parameters here. It's perfectly okay to challenge beliefs, so mind your own damn business.

 

[Meriweather]

You don't set the parameters here. It's perfectly okay to challenge beliefs, so mind your own damn business.

And if I want to learn more about why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah? Keep in mind it was you who told me to read the thread title (which I had already read).

As you also suggest...I am challenging you.

 

[rosends]

Maybe you can debunk what this Christian missionary says in response to rabbi Tovia Singer's arguments. Singer makes the following argument for Isaiah 9:5 (verse 6 in Christian Bibles):

​

Dr Michael Brown responds to the above argument, by arguing that the past tense or perfect tense in " a child has been given to us", is a so-called "prophetic perfect":

​

you realize that he concedes the verb tense early on (4:08) and spends the rest of his time questioning the subject (and number) of a verb based on competing translations and R. Singer's explanation, right? If only he had looked at basic commentary on Gen 25 and in other translations. You want to see this as a criticism of Singer? Feel free, and you can email him and tell him that translating as the singular in Isaiah and plural i Genesis is a problem. He would probably say that the sefaria default translation, the 2006 JPS is not a very good translation. None of the JPS works are that good as they are built on a framework of the KJV. Go to the same verse in the targum (the Aramaic) or the Koren translation or the Judaica Press (on the chabad site) and you find the singular, past tense, thus confirming that Isaiah was speaking about an event that had happened. Beyond that he gets into questioning if the text actually applies to Hezekiah (not all rabbinic voices say it does) and cites a talmudic passage which says that it did apply to him, but Hezekiah failed in being the messiah therefore, the speaker decides it applies to Jesus. Might a well say it applies to Harry Potter.

If you want to discuss the Hebrew verb tense choice and the precision of language, and the talmudic interpretations, we can - why don't you tell me your particular, and detailed thesis regarding the language and I will help you understand it (as I read and understand the Hebrew/Aramaic).

 

[Lisa558]

And if I want to learn more about why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah? Keep in mind it was you who told me to read the thread title (which I had already read).

As you also suggest...I am challenging you.

I appreciate you interest in learning why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. To summarize once again, he simply did not fulfill the requirements of the meshiach. And of course when he does come, he will not be a deity but a human being.

I came across another article that explains it quite well, I believe, if you have time and would like to see an additional explanation.

Why Don’t Jews Believe in Jesus? Who Was He According to Jewish Texts?

Dear Jew in the City- Why don’t Jews believe in Jesus? Who was he according to Jewish texts? Sincerely, Katie Dear Katie- Thanks for your question, though it’s the kind of question I hate to answer. The reason I hate to answer is because I don’t like to be misconstrued as “picking a fight” with […]

jewinthecity.com

 

[TruthNotBS]

you realize that he concedes the verb tense early on (4:08) and spends the rest of his time questioning the subject (and number) of a verb based on competing translations and R. Singer's explanation, right? If only he had looked at basic commentary on Gen 25 and in other translations. You want to see this as a criticism of Singer? Feel free, and you can email him and tell him that translating as the singular in Isaiah and plural i Genesis is a problem. He would probably say that the sefaria default translation, the 2006 JPS is not a very good translation. None of the JPS works are that good as they are built on a framework of the KJV. Go to the same verse in the targum (the Aramaic) or the Koren translation or the Judaica Press (on the chabad site) and you find the singular, past tense, thus confirming that Isaiah was speaking about an event that had happened. Beyond that he gets into questioning if the text actually applies to Hezekiah (not all rabbinic voices say it does) and cites a talmudic passage which says that it did apply to him, but Hezekiah failed in being the messiah therefore, the speaker decides it applies to Jesus. Might a well say it applies to Harry Potter.

If you want to discuss the Hebrew verb tense choice and the precision of language, and the talmudic interpretations, we can - why don't you tell me your particular, and detailed thesis regarding the language and I will help you understand it (as I read and understand the Hebrew/Aramaic).

So there is no "prophetic perfect"? Prophets that prophecy of a future event, will supposedly, according to Brown, use the past tense, as if the event has already occurred. Is that a fabrication or a fallacious argument? Is it even true? Brown cites the pagan "prophet" Baalam to support his "prophetic perfect".

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Yes, we know what the NT says he said. If you want to believe it, mist fine with me. Just don’t go around telling people who don’t believe as you do that they don’t get to Heaven. It’s arrogant, and rude.

It's apparently NOT fine with you. You expect US to abandon our fundamental beliefs to appease you. That's not gonna happen.

Islam has a set of beliefs. So do Jews. I make no DEMANDS of them, and what someone else thinks of my beliefs is irrelevant to me. I need no ones approval. You seem to "need' Christians to change their fundamental beliefs. Not gonna happen.

 

[Meriweather]

I appreciate you interest in learning why Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah. To summarize once again, he simply did not fulfill the requirements of the meshiach. And of course when he does come, he will not be a deity but a human being.

Jesus said he was not the Messiah (anointed one) that the Jews were expecting. He was clear that he was anointed by God to proclaim the good news that sins are forgiven. He also mentioned briefly that he was the one foretold by Moses--and clearly Moses did not prophecy about a king in the line of David. If I recall correctly, Moses foretold of a prophet greater than he, with the definition of 'prophet' as not one who foretells the future, but one who speaks for God. Jesus was adamant that his authority to proclaim the forgiveness of sins did come from God.

Is there anything you have learned in Hebrew scriptures about the future prophet of whom Moses spoke?

 

[Meriweather]

You seem to "need' Christians to change their fundamental beliefs.

Not the impression I get. My impression is that Lisa is perfectly fine with people keeping their own beliefs, but that she would appreciate an effort from Christians to at least try to understand the Jewish faith.

 

[Lisa558]

It's apparently NOT fine with you. You expect US to abandon our fundamental beliefs to appease you. That's not gonna happen.

Islam has a set of beliefs. So do Jews. I make no DEMANDS of them, and what someone else thinks of my beliefs is irrelevant to me. I need no ones approval. You seem to "need' Christians to change their fundamental beliefs. Not gonna happen.

It’s actually the opposite. I’ve said repeatedly that everyone should be able to believe as they wish, and there is no need for Christians to change their beliefs. OTOH, many Christians keep pounding Jews over the head, quote the NT as “proof” that Jews are wrong, and issue dire warnings that salvation will evade them unless they become Christians.

So, you have it backward.

 

[Lisa558]

Jesus said he was not the Messiah (anointed one) that the Jews were expecting. He was clear that he was anointed by God to proclaim the good news that sins are forgiven. He also mentioned briefly that he was the one foretold by Moses--and clearly Moses did not prophecy about a king in the line of David. If I recall correctly, Moses foretold of a prophet greater than he, with the definition of 'prophet' as not one who foretells the future, but one who speaks for God. Jesus was adamant that his authority to proclaim the forgiveness of sins did come from God.

Is there anything you have learned in Hebrew scriptures about the future prophet of whom Moses spoke?

No, I am unaware of a future prophet of which Moses spoke. It is a good topic to research (maybe tomorrow when I’m not so tired) and also to ask my rabbi when I got to services this Saturday.