Are There Any Conservative Hawks Like Me, Thinking of Voting For Hillary?

[Toro]

I was once a hawk, and supported our invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq, but now I realize that our country's incompetence in Vietnam was not a one-off. Democracies just aren't very good at fighting wars. The struggle of competing factions and special interests keep us from winning decisively. The interests of large corporations making money keep us in wars long after it's obvious that victory is impossible.

The only reason we won World War II decisively was because the Communists in our government convinced FDR to declare "Unconditional Surrender" as the goal of the war. But that turned out to be a mistake, because the complete collapse of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan led to a power vacuum that the Communists used to take over Eastern Europe, and big parts of Asia.

We won the war in Iraq. That wasn't the problem.

The problem is that we lost the peace.

 

[Flopper]

A true conservative would want Trump to be trounced in the general election to show that conservatism is actually based on core principles and not saying anything and asinine things just to rise to power by the non-virtue of true conservatives closing their eyes and holding their nose to vote for a clown at best.

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing too.

We're in completely uncharted waters here, as the same people who have been trumpeting (pun intended) "conservative values" for decades have fallen for a guy who has inspired them to throw many of those same values under the bus.

It's almost other-worldly, the way they seem to be under his spell. I'm trying to get it, I think I get it a bit more than before, but still....
.

No one is attracted to Trump because of his political philosophy because he has none.

There are a couple of rather uncomfortable and universal characteristics of mankind that the political elite have ignored. People like someone who talks big and no one talks bigger than Trump. We like someone to tell us our problems are simple and easy to solve even thou we know they aren't. We want someone to tell us with confidence there's a simple solution to our problems and no one is better at that than Trump. Secondly, we just don't really trust people who are different from us. So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

People with strong politician philosophies fail to comprehend that Trump's popularity has nothing to do with being a conservative or progressive.

So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

Trump has not preached that it is immigrants that cause all of our problems. It's the fact that our present administration has told ICE and the courts to ignore the illegal aliens and the illegals can cause many problems in this country, even leaving less secure and open to terrorism.

We have laws that protect us from this, but we do not enforce them. And you are right that neither party can solve. They are so immersed in political gain that the common sense approach has escaped them. But they became rich little devils aren't they? Working for the best for this country does not line their pockets.

Nonsense . Trump has blamed illegal immigration for stealing jobs from Americans, crime, disease, and even 911. Just 4 years ago, illegal migration didn't make the top five most important issues with Americans. Despite the fact that the of number illegal immigrants are down nearly a million and illegal immigration is at a 20 year low, Trump's campaign has successfully made it the number two most important problem with Americans.

Illegal immigration is not at a 20 year low. Need articles on the subject, just ask.

"As the Department of Homeland Security continues to pour money into border security, evidence is emerging that illegal immigration flows have fallen to their lowest level in at least two decades. The nation’s population of illegal immigrants, which more than tripled, to 12.2 million, between 1990 and 2007, has dropped by about 1 million, according to demographers at the Pew Research Center."
Fewer immigrants are entering the U.S. illegally, and that’s changed the border security debate

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Yeah, that's what I'm seeing too.

We're in completely uncharted waters here, as the same people who have been trumpeting (pun intended) "conservative values" for decades have fallen for a guy who has inspired them to throw many of those same values under the bus.

It's almost other-worldly, the way they seem to be under his spell. I'm trying to get it, I think I get it a bit more than before, but still....
.

No one is attracted to Trump because of his political philosophy because he has none.

There are a couple of rather uncomfortable and universal characteristics of mankind that the political elite have ignored. People like someone who talks big and no one talks bigger than Trump. We like someone to tell us our problems are simple and easy to solve even thou we know they aren't. We want someone to tell us with confidence there's a simple solution to our problems and no one is better at that than Trump. Secondly, we just don't really trust people who are different from us. So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

People with strong politician philosophies fail to comprehend that Trump's popularity has nothing to do with being a conservative or progressive.

So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

Trump has not preached that it is immigrants that cause all of our problems. It's the fact that our present administration has told ICE and the courts to ignore the illegal aliens and the illegals can cause many problems in this country, even leaving less secure and open to terrorism.

We have laws that protect us from this, but we do not enforce them. And you are right that neither party can solve. They are so immersed in political gain that the common sense approach has escaped them. But they became rich little devils aren't they? Working for the best for this country does not line their pockets.

Nonsense . Trump has blamed illegal immigration for stealing jobs from Americans, crime, disease, and even 911. Just 4 years ago, illegal migration didn't make the top five most important issues with Americans. Despite the fact that the of number illegal immigrants are down nearly a million and illegal immigration is at a 20 year low, Trump's campaign has successfully made it the number two most important problem with Americans.

Illegal immigration is not at a 20 year low. Need articles on the subject, just ask.

"As the Department of Homeland Security continues to pour money into border security, evidence is emerging that illegal immigration flows have fallen to their lowest level in at least two decades. The nation’s population of illegal immigrants, which more than tripled, to 12.2 million, between 1990 and 2007, has dropped by about 1 million, according to demographers at the Pew Research Center."
Fewer immigrants are entering the U.S. illegally, and that’s changed the border security debate

That could be. On the other hand, according to our own US Census, it appears to be the other way around:

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) has published another blockbuster report on immigration numbers, and their analysis foreshadows a troubling trend of growing illegal immigration. Using the most up-to-date census data, they have uncovered a trend that has been lost from some of the traditional immigration-related data published by the Department of Homeland Security, which tends to lag behind the most recent trends.

New Report: Massive Immigration Surge from Mexico

 

[Flopper]

No one is attracted to Trump because of his political philosophy because he has none.

There are a couple of rather uncomfortable and universal characteristics of mankind that the political elite have ignored. People like someone who talks big and no one talks bigger than Trump. We like someone to tell us our problems are simple and easy to solve even thou we know they aren't. We want someone to tell us with confidence there's a simple solution to our problems and no one is better at that than Trump. Secondly, we just don't really trust people who are different from us. So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

People with strong politician philosophies fail to comprehend that Trump's popularity has nothing to do with being a conservative or progressive.

So when Trump blames illegal immigrants, Muslims, the Chinese, Mexicans, and other foreigners for our problems, it's certainly more appealing than blaming ourselves. Lastly, people have lost faith in the ability of either side to solve our problems so they are willing to try something complete different and Trump is certainly different.

Trump has not preached that it is immigrants that cause all of our problems. It's the fact that our present administration has told ICE and the courts to ignore the illegal aliens and the illegals can cause many problems in this country, even leaving less secure and open to terrorism.

We have laws that protect us from this, but we do not enforce them. And you are right that neither party can solve. They are so immersed in political gain that the common sense approach has escaped them. But they became rich little devils aren't they? Working for the best for this country does not line their pockets.

Nonsense . Trump has blamed illegal immigration for stealing jobs from Americans, crime, disease, and even 911. Just 4 years ago, illegal migration didn't make the top five most important issues with Americans. Despite the fact that the of number illegal immigrants are down nearly a million and illegal immigration is at a 20 year low, Trump's campaign has successfully made it the number two most important problem with Americans.

Illegal immigration is not at a 20 year low. Need articles on the subject, just ask.

"As the Department of Homeland Security continues to pour money into border security, evidence is emerging that illegal immigration flows have fallen to their lowest level in at least two decades. The nation’s population of illegal immigrants, which more than tripled, to 12.2 million, between 1990 and 2007, has dropped by about 1 million, according to demographers at the Pew Research Center."
Fewer immigrants are entering the U.S. illegally, and that’s changed the border security debate

That could be. On the other hand, according to our own US Census, it appears to be the other way around:

The Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) has published another blockbuster report on immigration numbers, and their analysis foreshadows a troubling trend of growing illegal immigration. Using the most up-to-date census data, they have uncovered a trend that has been lost from some of the traditional immigration-related data published by the Department of Homeland Security, which tends to lag behind the most recent trends.

New Report: Massive Immigration Surge from Mexico

We're discussing illegal immigration. The report by Center for Immigration Studies is about immigration. There's a difference.

 

[NotfooledbyW]

Toro 14273628

I was once a hawk, and supported our invasion of both Afghanistan and Iraq, but now I realize that our country's incompetence in Vietnam was not a one-off. Democracies just aren't very good at fighting wars. The struggle of competing factions and special interests keep us from winning decisively. The interests of large corporations making money keep us in wars long after it's obvious that victory is impossible.

The only reason we won World War II decisively was because the Communists in our government convinced FDR to declare "Unconditional Surrender" as the goal of the war. But that turned out to be a mistake, because the complete collapse of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan led to a power vacuum that the Communists used to take over Eastern Europe, and big parts of Asia.

We won the war in Iraq. That wasn't the problem.The problem is that we lost the peace.

Did we find WMD? You know the actual alleged threat and reason for the war. We did not. The reason for the war was therefore false. You cannot declare victory when the military objective was not obtained or obtainable. Therefore there was never any victory and there was no peace to lose.

Secretarian violence was practically at zero when US military forces entered Iraq. The invasion and occupation drove sectarian violence up 100%. When Bush was forced to surrender and accept the forced withdrawal in December 2008, sectarian violence was cut to around 20%. Peace was never achieved. Peace would have been a return to zero violence that existed in March 2003 with 200 UN WMD inspectors on the ground in Iraq.

So there was no peace in 2008. There was a reduction in violence from its peak. Not real peace. The Sunni insurgency and AQI were never defeated. Your argument is a total farce.