Are You Going to Hell?

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The fact that you would bring that up just shows your complete lack of understanding.

That's disconcerting. Thank you, shaman.

 

[Hollie]

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

Says someone who hasn't a clue about why Christ died. It was more to the point so that people might know their sins are forgiven.

Well that's nice but our alleged sins are not forgiven.

From my perspective, it's nobler to believe in that which is supported and corroborated, despite how uncomfortable it might be. It's easy to foist it all on the gods who must to be ultimately responsible for everything if you define that they have created everything.

I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. "Their" message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. They can wash away all sins if they want to. They don't want to. Thus, they permit the eternal condemnation of most christians. If their concern was truly salvation,they would change their behavior to one that really embraces salvation.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on perfect and ultimate and unlimited gods. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establishe amorality as morality.

 

[ding]

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

Says someone who hasn't a clue about why Christ died. It was more to the point so that people might know their sins are forgiven.

Well that's nice but our alleged sins are not forgiven.

From my perspective, it's nobler to believe in that which is supported and corroborated, despite how uncomfortable it might be. It's easy to foist it all on the gods who must to be ultimately responsible for everything if you define that they have created everything.

I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. "Their" message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. They can wash away all sins if they want to. They don't want to. Thus, they permit the eternal condemnation of most christians. If their concern was truly salvation,they would change their behavior to one that really embraces salvation.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on perfect and ultimate and unlimited gods. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establishe amorality as morality.

But there are acts that are unforgivable.

 

[deannalw]

isn't hell a little fun?? you can do all the sin you want??
sex
hate
jealousy
greed
gluttony
etc??

Yeah if ya don't mind doing it all with an ass full of fire.

 

[RodISHI]

Oh yeah this thread is the voodoo and magical stuff you claim instead. Its still the same ole bs you guys put out over and over again when y'all come into a religious post where people share and discuss what faith and beliefs they have so you can do some more whining. Hell is simply that place in the spirit where peeps like you and Joe have turned their backs on God. It is the absence of God in your life and being you don't have it you somehow think you must think you can affect someone else with all your little rants.

Doesn't that make your God sound kind of insecure, that he needs to eternally punish people who don't believe in him?

The absense of God in my life means that, unlike when I was Catholic, I don't feel guilty about having simple human emotions. (Although more than a few of my friends have observed that I'm an Atheist with a Catholic value system.

Joe I am not a Catholic so I am sure I do not have the same beliefs you have or many other Catholics.

Eternal punishment? For the wicked/beastly portions yes. That son of perdition portion that gets put out in time. We all have one in us that must be overcome. No I don't think that makes God insecure at all. God isn't off somewhere in the distance. When you turn your back on God though you put yourself into the position of being absent.

 

[WheelieAddict]

Probably

 

[buttercup]

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

Says someone who hasn't a clue about why Christ died. It was more to the point so that people might know their sins are forgiven.

Well that's nice but our alleged sins are not forgiven.

From my perspective, it's nobler to believe in that which is supported and corroborated, despite how uncomfortable it might be. It's easy to foist it all on the gods who must to be ultimately responsible for everything if you define that they have created everything.

I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. "Their" message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. They can wash away all sins if they want to. They don't want to. Thus, they permit the eternal condemnation of most christians. If their concern was truly salvation,they would change their behavior to one that really embraces salvation.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on perfect and ultimate and unlimited gods. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establishe amorality as morality.

But there are acts that are unforgivable.

Why do you say ”acts” plural? I am pretty sure that the standard Christian position is that there is only one unforgivable sin. Everything else is forgivable.

 

[RodISHI]

To begin with, the premise is wrong (something I learned as a child). Second, the first four commandments are for our benefit, not God's. It sets the type of priorities we should have for a fulfilling and peaceful life.

again, that's kind of sounds like the reasoning of an abusive spouse. Don't do stuff to get me mad and I won't punish you.

This perspective has nothing to do with a fragile ego, but rather someone who cares about our lives. Thus, fragile ego aside, we can open our eyes to a more in depth look at God and what He reveals about Himself. Notice His vulnerability. He comes to us as a child; in doing so, He is not above death; He needs the help of physical beings to assist others; He is not found in power and might, but rather the tiniest of whispers.

Does this work on the Rubes at Church? Epicurus got this right millennia ago.

You bring the point up "your nothing without me"; so here is a consideration for you. If you deny that there is an ultimate omnipresent spirit that made you a living soul made with a breath from God aren't you denying your own existence?

Not sure. The flood came first that much I know.

So where’s the ark?[/QUOTE]An Ark meaning an intricately woven carrier similar to an intricately woven basket; in other words the brain where the spirit dwells.

 

[RodISHI]

Who needs to make threats of hell or any kind of threats?

You do, and have. And they really put on display what this magical horseshit has done to your morality. They also highlight the embarrassing weakness of your religion and your case for it, as resorting to these threats is always "your Alamo". One does not have to cajole with threats, when one has good arguments.

Bullshit I don't threaten anyone with hell. You called me a liar yet you keep trying to make crap up. Back on ignore you go.

 

[BreezeWood]

God will be perfectly just and he will be perfectly merciful

you haven't a clue - humanity was given a second chance from the depth of certain extinction it's up to them to make amends - - there is no messiah (child sacrifice), humanity is on their own the Almighty has stated mankind will not be saved again.

 

[BreezeWood]

Every ancient culture has an account of a great flood ...

those were obviously natural disaster, there were survivors to record the account s - and were not the event prescribed by the Religion of Antiquity.

 

[Hollie]

Christ died for our sins. Dare we make his martyrdom meaningless by not committing them?

-Jules Feiffer

Says someone who hasn't a clue about why Christ died. It was more to the point so that people might know their sins are forgiven.

Well that's nice but our alleged sins are not forgiven.

From my perspective, it's nobler to believe in that which is supported and corroborated, despite how uncomfortable it might be. It's easy to foist it all on the gods who must to be ultimately responsible for everything if you define that they have created everything.

I cannot logically resolve vengeful, vicious gods. "Their" message comes with an underlying threat that is repulsive. They can wash away all sins if they want to. They don't want to. Thus, they permit the eternal condemnation of most christians. If their concern was truly salvation,they would change their behavior to one that really embraces salvation.

If I were "infinitely merciful" there would be no act that could possibly circumvent my infinite mercy. The comparisons to humans don’t ever work, even as an illustration, because theists insist on perfect and ultimate and unlimited gods. Infinite love and mercy should be what it is-- infinite love and mercy. Eternal damnation is a contradiction to those attributes, and there is no way to reconcile gods who establishe amorality as morality.

But there are acts that are unforgivable.

So, you acknowledge that the claim of the gods being “infinitely merciful” is false?

 

[JoeB131]

I believe in God and have every reason to know He does exist.

And there were people who felt the same way about Baal, Zeus, Odin, Mithra, Allah, Amaterasu, Quetzalcoatl and a whole bunch of other sky fairies who commanded them to do awful things. Belief isn't evidence. Moving right along.

You have a very poor understanding of the Bible, but there is no excuse for attaching your own interpretation of the Bible to its contents to lecture to believers. That is comparable to someone opening up a book written in a foreign language about psychiatry and pretending it translates into Dr. Seuss's The Cat in the Hat on your say-so.

Okay, that's nice and all, but you totally dodged my point about Jephthah the Gileadite. You know, the guy who chopped up his virgin daughter as a burnt offering to God because he made a foolish vow. He then proceeded to slaughter 42,000 Ephramites because they did not support his genocidal war against the Ammonites. Would you call him a "moral" man? The New Testament does.

Hebrews 11: 32 And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets— stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, were made strong out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.

There are very good reasons not to believe in God--you don't have to make them up by mistranslating Biblical accounts. That is plain sloppy.

I'm not mistranslating anything. I'm just pointing out the stuff that's in there that the Nuns didn't bother to tell us about. There was a reason why they didn't let us have copies of the Old Testament. They just gave us cutesy version of Bible Stories.

Without going into the horrible reality of what the Flood was if it actually happened.

"Sister, why did God drown all the babies."

"They were WICKED BABIES! WIIIIICKED" WHACK!

Of course, little Joey found enough bad shit in the New Testament to get the old hags to swat him with a ruler more than once.

"Um, Sister, why do Luke and Matthew have different ancestors of Jesus, and why do they list his ancestors through Joseph if he wasn't the real father."

WHACK!!!!!

Guess what, now I'm slapping back.

I'm just glad it's cool to be a Lesbian now, so that these poor women don't become old and frustrated and torment children.

 

[JoeB131]

Joe I am not a Catholic so I am sure I do not have the same beliefs you have or many other Catholics.

Eternal punishment? For the wicked/beastly portions yes. That son of perdition portion that gets put out in time. We all have one in us that must be overcome. No I don't think that makes God insecure at all. God isn't off somewhere in the distance. When you turn your back on God though you put yourself into the position of being absent.

But that's not what the Bible says. If you are good Muslim, Hindu, Atheist, whatever, you are going to Hell. You might be a perfectly good person, but you are still burning in hell for going to the wrong church.

True, it's not something they all say at the Interfaith Pancake Breakfast where they all pretend to like each other.

Jesus Christ dogmatically stated: “I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me” (John 14:6).

The apostle Peter, speaking of Jesus Christ, proclaimed, “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12). Many other scriptures reinforce this basic principle—you cannot be saved unless the Father calls you and you accept and follow Jesus Christ (John 3:36; 1 Timothy 2:5; 1 John 5:12).

 

[JoeB131]

You bring the point up "your nothing without me"; so here is a consideration for you. If you deny that there is an ultimate omnipresent spirit that made you a living soul made with a breath from God aren't you denying your own existence?

No, I'm pretty sure I exist as a combination of electro-chemical reactions that resulted from 4 billion years of evolution. Which is kind of depressing when you think about it, but still more hopeful than an omnipotent sky fairy who creates people just to torture them.

 

[Meriweather]

And there were people who felt the same way about Baal, Zeus, Odin, Mithra, Allah, Amaterasu, Quetzalcoatl and a whole bunch of other sky fairies who commanded them to do awful things.

This has nothing to do with the price of tea in China.

 

[Meriweather]

Okay, that's nice and all, but you totally dodged my point about Jephthah the Gileadite. You know, the guy who chopped up his virgin daughter as a burnt offering to God because he made a foolish vow. He then proceeded to slaughter 42,000 Ephramites because they did not support his genocidal war against the Ammonites. Would you call him a "moral" man? The New Testament does.

Your summary gives insight into how you think, but has little else to do with the story of Jephthah or the history and culture in which he lived. What I learned about you from your version of the account: Someone who spins his own stories to rationalize his own view of religion and God.

 

[Meriweather]

I'm not mistranslating anything. I'm just pointing out the stuff that's in there that the Nuns didn't bother to tell us about. There was a reason why they didn't let us have copies of the Old Testament. They just gave us cutesy version of Bible Stories.

Yes, Joe, you mistranslated and are misinterpreting anything you can lay your hands on. I went to Catholic school. We did have copies of the Old Testament, and we had guest speakers who were Jewish, who were willing to share their teachings as well.

I am truly sorry your idea of Catholic teaching came in the form of a hateful, ignorant nun. One year, I went through my own version of a hateful nun, so I have some idea of what you went through. But then I moved on and grew up. You battle the cutesy version of Bible Stories with your own hateful version. The second is no more accurate than the first.

 

[Meriweather]

"Um, Sister, why do Luke and Matthew have different ancestors of Jesus, and why do they list his ancestors through Joseph if he wasn't the real father."

WHACK!!!!!

Guess what, now I'm slapping back.

Indeed, you are shadow boxing. No nun ever whacked any of us, and trust me, we were more irreverent in our questions than you. By the way, the histories behind the two genealogies is fascinating. We were taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame, who were trained teachers, and as I said, never touched any of us. They answered our questions (including the one about the genealogies) with insight and intelligence.

 

[ding]

"Um, Sister, why do Luke and Matthew have different ancestors of Jesus, and why do they list his ancestors through Joseph if he wasn't the real father."

WHACK!!!!!

Guess what, now I'm slapping back.

Indeed, you are shadow boxing. No nun ever whacked any of us, and trust me, we were more irreverent in our questions than you. By the way, the histories behind the two genealogies is fascinating. We were taught by the Sisters of Notre Dame, who were trained teachers, and as I said, never touched any of us. They answered our questions (including the one about the genealogies) with insight and intelligence.

I dunno. I got smacked quite a bit by them.