Are You Going to Hell?

[JoeB131]

Or climatologists are scientists...

Just saying.

Funny thing about Science.. unlike religion, it remains true even when you stop believing it.

Try reading some scholarly research on the topic.

I've got a degree in history. Never met a legitimate historian who tried to claim the Aztecs weren't chopping the shit out of people.

That is what they are known as today. Go back in time. Or, move forward in time with the Bible as well. This is a case of you can't have your cake and eat it, too. What is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Well, that would work if the Bible added any books after 200 CE and got rid of the old ones they realized are wrong now. You see, that's what SCIENCE does. When the realize a theory was wrong, they stop promoting the theory.

Try again. This time with the history and culture of the time, not the culture of nineteenth century America.

There was never a time or culture where Slavery was okay. Or Right. Or Moral. If your teaching came from a benign, just God, instead of the backwards superstitions of Bronze Age Savages, he'd have said, "You know, that thing you do where you are selling other people. Don't do that!"

Please note, still waiting for you to tell me how Jephthah was a just and moral man like the Bible says he was.

 

[Meriweather]

Try to explain how Jephthah was a moral man of God when he chopped up his daughter and threw her on the barbie! You know, like the Letter to the Hebrews says he was.

I've asked several times about Jephthah in this thread, and you keep avoiding him like the Crazy Uncle who shows up at Thanksgiving.

Joe, I did answer. You did not like the answer, and you classify anything you don't like as "avoidance." I know the story of Jephthah, and it is not your 21st century misinterpretation of historical and cultural events. What you miss is the fact that the Hebrews do not hide the warts and realities of their well known officials. Jephthah was the son of a harlot, rejected by his brothers, and so became a ruffian and a gang leader--a brave one. The Israelites were having trouble with the Ammonites who wanted their land, claimed it was there--although they never made the same claim from the tribe whose land it was before the Israelites won it, hundreds of years before. They went to war. Jephthah asked the Ephraimites to join them against the Ammonites, but they did not respond...until after the battles were won. Then they wanted a share of the spoils, which Jephthah was disinclined to share with them.

One of the events he is well-known for was disobeying God's law by making a vain vow and carrying it out when it was clearly wrong. Jephthah felt he would lose honor if he did not honor his vow. Jews mourned his lack of education and that he had not been trained in God's law and ways. Had he been, he would have known such a vow was wrong.

Jephthah had saved the Israelites from the Ammonites, became a Judge, and by all accounts acquitted himself fairly well. What the Jews learned by Jephthah is that God calls and uses the sons of harlots, who break His law, (i.e. the imperfect) for the good of His people.

Because of Jephthah, the Israelites once more avoided destruction and gave them victory. He advanced the cause of the Jewish people as a whole. Why do you want this forgotten and Jephthah, son of the harlot, only known (and to be totally unforgiven) for killing his daughter? Jephthah saw it as that once making a vow, it would be dishonorable and immoral of him to break it. You, of course, know better than Jephthah.

 

[Meriweather]

Mainstream does.

Too many fringe sects in both religions to discount anything.

No, mainstream does not. The Mainstream Media, however, does focus on the minority who do teach it.

 

[Meriweather]

And this is another problem with modern religious teaching... trying to come up with prosaic explanations for things in the Bible.

Maybe it was only a local flood. Or maybe Pharaoh's army was caught in a High Tide in a swampy area. The problem with these kinds of explanations, of course, is that once you come up with simple answers for them, then they become a lot less "miraculous". They become some act of nature these Bronze Age Savages just needed a God to blame on.

There is no problem with natural explanations of big events, and in fact it is a big plus from a religious point of view. Without being blinded by miracles we are better able to discern God in the midst of His people.

It is your perspective that God was blamed. In fact, the people of time saw how God used a series of unfortunate events to help His people.

 

[Meriweather]

I've got a degree in history.

I am guessing not Aztec history, nor that you did any hands on research among descendants of Aztec civilizations.

 

[Meriweather]

Well, that would work if the Bible added any books after 200 CE and got rid of the old ones they realized are wrong now. You see, that's what SCIENCE does. When the realize a theory was wrong, they stop promoting the theory.

There is no reason to get rid of witness testimony or their perspective, especially when we, now knowing scientific facts, can better understand what they were seeing. Joe, I am a prime example of someone who listened to religious teachers who point out the science in what happened all those centuries ago. For some reason you think ALL religions ALWAYS teach every event as literal miracles. It is probably because you avoid religion that you are way behind the times on this.

 

[JoeB131]

One of the events he is well-known for was disobeying God's law by making a vain vow and carrying it out when it was clearly wrong. Jephthah felt he would lose honor if he did not honor his vow. Jews mourned his lack of education and that he had not been trained in God's law and ways. Had he been, he would have known such a vow was wrong.

The thing is, you are making God a passive player. Jephthah didn't know that his daughter would be the first thing he'd run into, but God did. God STILL granted his victory over the Ammonites, and still took that sweet, sweet human sacrifice. (Did she go well with Honey Glaze?)

Jephthah had saved the Israelites from the Ammonites, became a Judge, and by all accounts acquitted himself fairly well. What the Jews learned by Jephthah is that God calls and uses the sons of harlots, who break His law, (i.e. the imperfect) for the good of His people.

You mean other than the Daughter murder and the genocide of his own people. That's like praising Hitler for the Autobahn.

Also, his war against the Ammonites (The descendants of Lot though an incestuous relationship with his daughter he previously offered up for gang rape... again, swell characters in the bible) was a war of genocide and aggression... not something to be proud of, really. But, um, that was then, and Genocide was totally cool back then because it was a different time, um, er... whatever.

Today, we'd put Jephthah up on a war crimes trial at the Hague.

I am guessing not Aztec history, nor that you did any hands on research among descendants of Aztec civilizations.

Yes, i'm sure that they totally denied their ancestors did anything bad, and so does your average Southern Redneck who displays a Confederate flag.

Again... real historians admit the Aztecs were savage as shit. Not that the Christians were any better when they took over and wiped out 75% of the Native American population.

 

[Meriweather]

There was never a time or culture where Slavery was okay. Or Right. Or Moral. If your teaching came from a benign, just God, instead of the backwards superstitions of Bronze Age Savages, he'd have said, "You know, that thing you do where you are selling other people. Don't do that!"

You are equating Biblical slavery with nineteenth century American slavery. If you are a history major, you should have at least caught a glimmer of the huge differences between the two.

 

[JoeB131]

There is no reason to get rid of witness testimony or their perspective, especially when we, now knowing scientific facts, can better understand what they were seeing. Joe, I am a prime example of someone who listened to religious teachers who point out the science in what happened all those centuries ago. For some reason you think ALL religions ALWAYS teach every event as literal miracles. It is probably because you avoid religion that you are way behind the times on this.

Yes, I know some XIans realize the fairy tales are silly, and try to come up with Prosaic explanations...

I have less respect for them than the fundies who think it all happened, just the way the Bible says.

If you think there's a prosaic explanation for the flood (just a local flood), then there was no reason for God to drown all those people. He wasn't really solving the problem he set out to solve.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Interesting, is it not, that humans both in the Middle East and Mezo-America believed in a Creator God...

Sure, but that lends no truth whatsoever to God myths. It's also true that unconnected cultures had dragon myths. Should we pause and then wonder if dragons are real? No, we rightly chalk it up to the universal human traits of ignorance and superstition.

 

[JoeB131]

You are equating Biblical slavery with nineteenth century American slavery. If you are a history major, you should have at least caught a glimmer of the huge differences between the two.

Well, let's talk about that. Yes, the bible has a bunch of rules for JEWS who found themselves sold into slavery. Those non-Jews you bought down at the Slave-Mart, they were just kind of screwed.

Slavery is slavery... period.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

You are equating Biblical slavery with nineteenth century American slavery. If you are a history major, you should have at least caught a glimmer of the huge differences between the two.

Well that's a nauseating bit of equivocation . Slavery is slavery, and it is always immoral. Pretending you actually have divine authority of a sky daddy to own other people? Why, that's even worse.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

In fact, the people of time saw how God used a series of unfortunate events to help His people

Well, not so much the ones he made to suffer.

 

[Meriweather]

The thing is, you are making God a passive player. Jephthah didn't know that his daughter would be the first thing he'd run into, but God did. God STILL granted his victory over the Ammonites, and still took that sweet, sweet human sacrifice.

Okay, Joe, you "win." Your perspective is the one that matters. Viewing things from the perspective of the Hebrews or Jephthah or anyone else is obviously a complete waste of time, because Joe's is the one and only perspective--and it would be a shame to disturb it. I'll leave you to it.

I didn't find anything else in that post worthy of a response anyway. I wish you well.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Mainstream does.

Too many fringe sects in both religions to discount anything.

No, mainstream does not. The Mainstream Media, however, does focus on the minority who do teach it.

Bunk.

Every major sect of Christianity, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, et al, teach that the biblical flood occurred.

 

[Meriweather]

Every major sect of Christianity, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Pentecostal, et al, teach that the biblical flood occurred.

But not all state that it affected the entire globe. For example, Jews point to scripture which states that once God separated land from sea, never again would water cover the entire globe. They point out that in Hebrew, the wording is not that the flood covered the Earth (planet), but that it covered the earth (ground).

The Catholic Church teaches that people can decide for themselves whether they wish to take a six day creation and other events in Genesis in the literal language of 21st century English or see it as figurative language, depicting truth.

 

[JoeB131]

Okay, Joe, you "win." Your perspective is the one that matters. Viewing things from the perspective of the Hebrews or Jephthah or anyone else is obviously a complete waste of time, because Joe's is the one and only perspective--and it would be a shame to disturb it. I'll leave you to it.

I didn't find anything else in that post worthy of a response anyway. I wish you well.

Actually, there really is no perspective where butchering and burning your daughter to please an imaginary sky man or as a payoff for winning a genocidal war against your neighbors becomes "okay".

Did God take Jephthah's daughter with some Sweet Baby Ray's

Hebrews - the other white meat.

 

[ding]

Okay, Joe, you "win." Your perspective is the one that matters. Viewing things from the perspective of the Hebrews or Jephthah or anyone else is obviously a complete waste of time, because Joe's is the one and only perspective--and it would be a shame to disturb it. I'll leave you to it.

I didn't find anything else in that post worthy of a response anyway. I wish you well.

Actually, there really is no perspective where butchering and burning your daughter to please an imaginary sky man or as a payoff for winning a genocidal war against your neighbors becomes "okay".

Did God take Jephthah's daughter with some Sweet Baby Ray's

View attachment 237433

Hebrews - the other white meat.

It’s odd that you don’t apply that same standard to the racist heritage of the Democratic Party, right Joey?

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

For example, Jews point to scripture which states that once God separated land from sea, never again would water cover the entire globe.

Which is wrong, of course,, as it never did cover the entire globe. So that seems like a pretty bad source of any information whatsoever.

 

[Avatar4321]

That is the allegorical account of man's nature. I'm sure you are well aware of that. Being how smart and all you are, right?

No, it’s a real event. So I hear...

That wasn't the question. The question was given your supreme intellect if you could maybe share ancient man's wisdom that he deemed worthy of passing on for thousands of years by sharing with each generation these accounts.

What was so special about this specific account?

Ancient man didn’t even have toilet paper. Let that sink in for a minute.

And yet those brilliant men laid the foundation for everything we have now

As humans get smarter they are abandoning organized religions. They might have been helpful back when ignorant humans needed something to explain their surroundings, but not so much anymore.

I've seen little evidence that people are getting smarter