Atheist soldier says Army punished him

[Shogun]

WRONG. "BLESSING" is a direct acknowledgement this comes from God. They believed blessing could only come from God, so by using the term, who do they think these rights came from?

From the men who knew that they had to use the term GOD much like WE use the term DEMOCRACY when invading third world nations. That sentence was probably too deep for your small, reptilian brain so feel free to tell me how apples and oranges apply.. You know, it's probably not absolutely hilarious that you avoid the namesake of our JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRACY and the CONSTITUTION, including the preamble, for the sake of Washington and, excuse me while I laugh at you, the declaration of independance...

Indeed, men of science who were busy chumming it up with french philosophers probably WERE Southern Baptists!




if god is what gave us liberty then there would have been no need for a constitution since, like every other theocratic domination, your bible would suffice as well as any legal document. But, thankfully, the FFs were three steps ahead of the extra chromosome that is dogma junkies and clarified their intent in the bill of rights, the treaty with tripoly and through a wide range of historical documents like Jefferson's filtered version of the bible. Deist is not a christian. Think what you want, cry to whomever you need to, stomp your ID foot all day long. These are the facts and you are acting like a pharisee questioning jebus about the good sumaritan for trying so hard to bend history around your crazy mythology.

 

[Shogun]

example of when those rights were taken away when the person(s) did nothing wrong?

Dont give me examples of people using scriptures for their own ends. It will just prove you are either ignorant and or a liar, just like poor pathetic shogun. Jesus said you will be known by your fruits, and its obvious when people like those who carried out the inquisition, were not doing their deeds for God, but rather for their own greedy desires.

yea.. don't give him FACTS and EVIDENCE since they are to him what holy water and sunlight are to a fucking vampire. He would ignore the entire history of the christian church and blame atrocities on man if he thinks he sees wiggle room. The bottom line is that one of us in this conversation decided to act like a big e-macho man and whip out the trusty ole "say it to my face" routine... Can you guess if it's the athiest or the christian preening his feathers here?

If you picked christian then you probably have a good grasp on the historic behaviour of christians when cornered by facts that don't fit their dogma fantasy.

 

[M14 Shooter]

If god is what gave us liberty...

From the Declaration:

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights..

-To whom or what do they refer to when they use the term "Creator"?
-Why is that term capitalized?

then there would have been no need for a constitution...

Except that...

That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men...

Thus, goverment exists to secure the unalienable rights given to us by our Creator.

 

[Shogun]

Originally Posted by Shogun
Uh, you might wanna reread the thread, dude. The arguement is whether or not this is a CHRISTIAN NATION.. not if there were christians in the thirteen colonies. Who the hell has ever denied that there were christians in colonial America? Quote someone suggesting as much. Are you familiar with the term strawman?

And no, the CONSTITUTION is not besides the point. THAT is the document that defines this nation. THAT is the source of our liberties. Not the Decleration... Not random Hamilton quotes. NOT some conveluded christian crusade to piss on the tree of america and claim it for the sake of their ghost in the sky. Go back and reread some history without the dogma bifocals clouding your eyes. There is a reason the very first amendment deals with the seperation of church and state... maybe if you stop injecting dogma into your veins you'll comprehend that Jefferson, in fact, by his own actions and words was as far from a christian as I am.


Say, what does the term JEFFERSONIAN DEMOCRACY mean to you anyway?




Your dismissal of the DOA just proves that you must be myoptic and closed minded to keep your delusions alive.

Why dismiss the DOA? Its a valid legal document and showed the state of mind of the FF's, which is what we are trying to determine. Why can you use letters of Jefferson which arent the Constitution, then turn around and argue the DOA is meaningless because its not the Constitution.

In fact, the DOA carries much more standing in terms of representing what our country was, as it is a declaration of many of the FF's, if not all, while Jeffersons letters are merely one mans view, which is quite meaningless. The nation as a whole is a collection of many peoples values, not just one person named Jefferson.

You guys keep bringing up Jefferson because you got nothing else and its so weak, its pathetic

Yea, it sure is totally retarded to consider the CONSTITUTION above the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE when trying to determine the specific mechanic that our nation is built from. yup. It's Carazy to think that a personal letter addressed to a theocratic king in the fatherland of the colonies is LESS indicative of the nature of America than, say, the actual document that addresses the nature of this country. Yup. In FACT, it's so nutty that CLEARLY a treaty ratified by congress during the same time that specifically states that we are not a christian nation MUST have just been one of those elaborate office pranks before youtube was around to show it to millions. Clearly, Thomas Jefferson was being Punk'd by the great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather of Ashton Kutcher. Indeed, focusing on the man who penned the damn Declaration,THOMAS JEFFERSON, when Alex Hamilton was privately a christian, SURE IS RETARDED.




Christian nutters.. I tellya..

 

[Shogun]

Really>?. tru reading some letters from many of the FF's, for example, George Washington, THE FATHER of our nation, he emphatically states over and over and over that we , as a nation, received our blessings from almight God.

This is a Federal holiday in which the President said we should as a nation thank God for his blessings on us as a nation. If thats not a govt promoting religion, then it simply doesnt exist. If you can read this and still believe they wanted a seperation of church and state, then you belong in a straight jacket. Seriously. And dont forget, congress voted and approved the holiday and its purpose.

Thanksgiving Proclamation

[New York, 3 October 1789]

Page Image.
By the President of the United States of America, a Proclamation.

Whereas it is the duty of all Nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly to implore his protection and favor-- and whereas both Houses of Congress have by their joint Committee requested me to recommend to the People of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and prayer to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many signal favors of Almighty God especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness.

Now therefore I do recommend and assign Thursday the 26th day of November next to be devoted by the People of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being, who is the beneficent Author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be-- That we may then all unite in rendering unto him our sincere and humble thanks--for his kind care and protection of the People of this Country previous to their becoming a Nation--for the signal and manifold mercies, and the favorable interpositions of his Providence which we experienced in the course and conclusion of the late war--for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty, which we have since enjoyed--for the peaceable and rational manner, in which we have been enabled to establish constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national One now lately instituted--for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed; and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and in general for all the great and various favors which he hath been pleased to confer upon us.

and also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech him to pardon our national and other transgressions-- to enable us all, whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually--to render our national government a blessing to all the people, by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed--to protect and guide all Sovereigns and Nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us) and to bless them with good government, peace, and concord--To promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the encrease of science among them and us--and generally to grant unto all Mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best.

Given under my hand at the City of New York the third day of October in the year of our Lord 1789.

AND NOTE, HE REFERS TO BLESSINGS AS BEING FROM GOD,

I was going to highlight in BOLD the really pertinent and important parts, but I found myself highlighting the entire thing.

We were under conviction of the necessity of arousing our people from the lethargy into which they had fallen as to passing events; and thought that the appointment of a day of general fasting & prayer would be most likely to call up & alarm their attention. No example of such a solemnity had existed since the days of our distresses in the war of '55, since which a new generation had grown up. With the help therefore of Rushworth, [a popular book, John Rushworth's Historical Collections] whom we rummaged over for the revolutionary precedents & forms of the Puritans of that day, preserved by him, we cooked up a resolution, somewhat modernizing their phrases, for appointing the 1st day of June, on which the Port bill was to commence, for a day of fasting, humiliation & prayer, to implore heaven to avert from us the evils of civil war, to inspire us with firmness in support of our rights, and to turn the hearts of the King & parliament to moderation & justice.

http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/account/index.htm


Jefferson's OWN words about the Declaration. Did you catch what he states or do you need to touch the braille? They USED the verbage and rousing language to invoke the people, NOT god, into supporting their cause. Just like a modern advertiser lulling your senses with cleavage and food in a commercial. Yet, you would rather ignore Jefferson than have to admit that the man was anything but a god fearing southern baptist.


Go learn something besides how to prey on third world nations for women who don't know they have a right to get help to break the cycle.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Yea, it sure is totally retarded to consider the CONSTITUTION above the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDANCE when trying to determine the specific mechanic that our nation is built from.

The DoI is the founding document of the country. The Constitution didn't come along until there had been a United States of America for 15 years, and exists soley to form the current government of same.

 

[jillian]

The DoI is the founding document of the country. The Constitution didn't come along until there had been a United States of America for 15 years, and exists soley to form the current government of same.

But the Declaration of Independence isn't law. So as anything binding on us, it's irrelevant.

 

[M14 Shooter]

But the Declaration of Independence isn't law.

Sure it is.

So as anything binding on us...

Irrelevant to the conversation.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

But the Declaration of Independence isn't law. So as anything binding on us, it's irrelevant.

So, are you saying its a worthless piece of paper?

Do you even understand its purpose, value, effect on our nation? WHat it meant to how our nation would develope?
I dont think so, because you dont like the answers, you will either ignore and/or distort them.

Fact is, the DOA is every bit as important as the COTUS, without it the nation and the COTUS dont exist.

In actuality, it is law, it was the first independent law the FF's created. They declared LEGALLY, that the LEGAL binds claimed by Britian, were now LEGALLY being broken, that the colonies no longer recognize any LEGAL hold Britian has on us, that all LAWS and LEGALITY imposed by Britian on the colonies are no longer LAW.

THIS IS THE FIRST AND VITALLY MOST IMPORTANT LAW EVER TO OUR COUNTRY. AND IT WAS QUITE EXPLICIT IN WHICH DIRECTION WE WERE TO GO AS A NATION, LEGALLY, RELLIGOUSLY AND IN OTHER WAYS. IT PROCLAIMS THAT WE ARE A NATION UNDER GOD. THE MEN WHO SIGNED IT WERE THE SAME MEN WHO SIGNED THE CONSTITUTION, FOR THE MOST PART.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, THEY SUDDENLY CHANGED THEIR MINDS WHEN SIGNING THE COTUS?

AND LASTLY, I LOVE THE WAY YOU GUYS LOVE TO QUOTE OTHER SOURCES THAT ARENT LAW, LIKE JEFFERSON, THEN WHEN WE QUOTE SOMETHING ELSE THAN THE COTUS, YOU SCREAM, BUT IT ISNT LAW. IS JEFFERSONS LETTERS LAW?
WHAT IS MORE LIKELY TO GIVE US INSIGHT IN TO WHAT THE FF'S INTENDED FOR THIS COUNTRY, A DOCUMENT SIGNED BY ALL THE FF'S, OR A DOC OF AN OPINION OF ONE MAN?

I KNOW Y0U WONT ANSWER ALL THESE QUESTIONS, ONLY THE ONES YOU CAN MANAGE TO FIND SOMETHING THAT EVEN REMOTELY RESEMBLES SOME SORT OF ANSWER. HAHHAHA, YOU IGNORE SOOOOO MUCH OF WHAT BRIAN H, M14, OUR SARGE AND OTHERS BRING UP


EWWWWWWWWW, gorgous jillian gave me neg rep on this. Shows how dishonest she is, and how she abuses the rep system. and she admitted she wont answer these points, with a bogus claim they are irrelevant, they dont prove the DOI is law, yet I showed specifically how it is law, didnt you read the paragraph with LAW LEGAL LEGALLY highlighted? How is that not law? and why can you bring up docs that arent law, but you dont think its relevent if we do? Cmon, answer em jillian, or are you a coward who cant and wont admit she is wrong, whimpy all little bitch

 

[LuvRPgrl]

And Thomas Jefferson was referring to Nature's God and NOT the Judeo-Christian God that you believe rules your life. Do you understand the difference? Try reading Blasphemy by Alan Dershowitz.

This proves that our nation was founded by men who favored reason and spirituality over Christian centric dogma.

To them Natures God and Christian God were one and the same.
Dershowitz is an idiot.
they favored BOTH, they went to their respective states and instituted Christian centric dogma.

taoman:Then why does the Constitution declare that all offices cannot require a religious test? Why can't Congress favor one religion over the other?

simple, they wanted Christianity to be a fabric and interwoven in all aspects of our society, gvt, but they didnt want it FORCED on any one person.
Do YOU understand the difference?

Because organized religion always become tyranny over the minds of men...and that would nullify any freedom that the Constitution, the Preamble, and the DOI would have created.

Only in your mind. Not the minds of the FF's, and according to our darling baggage mouthed Jillian, the women who exudes NO C LASS whatsoever, the DOI is irrelevant. And the FF's declared our rights are given by God and hence cannot be taken away by any man, without Gods permission.
Dont you understand that basic concept that goes back to the beginning if existence, you cant take something from another unless its yours or was yours to begin with.
If the govt or man gives the rights, then any and all can be stripped for any reason whatsoever, or no reason at all.

on the other hand, show me where they declare rights given by God can be taken by man even if the person having them removed did nothing to deserve it.

 

[LuvRPgrl]

Sure it is.


Irrelevant to the conversation.

Not to mention that the women rights and civil rights movements referred to the Declaration of Independence to support their claims, "that all men are created equal"

show me where it states that in the Constitution. If the original COTUS didnt declare that, then it simply didnt exist as law according to Jillian, and hence, bigorty, racism, sexism, was and is legal

 

[Shogun]

The DoI is the founding document of the country. The Constitution didn't come along until there had been a United States of America for 15 years, and exists soley to form the current government of same.

*yawn*

form the current government you say, eh?

 

[Shogun]

EWWWWWWWWW, gorgous jillian gave me neg rep on this. Shows how dishonest she is, and how she abuses the rep system. and she admitted she wont answer these points, with a bogus claim they are irrelevant, they dont prove the DOI is law, yet I showed specifically how it is law, didnt you read the paragraph with LAW LEGAL LEGALLY highlighted? How is that not law? and why can you bring up docs that arent law, but you dont think its relevent if we do? Cmon, answer em jillian, or are you a coward who cant and wont admit she is wrong, whimpy all little bitch
.

 

[jillian]

He also doesn't know the difference between historical documents and law...

which is why he's not worth bothering about.

He is a whiny little jerk, though.

 

[M14 Shooter]

*yawn*
form the current government you say, eh?

Yes - as opposed to having created the United States, as the DoI did.

And I see you didnt answer my questions.

 

[Shogun]

Not to mention that the women rights and civil rights movements referred to the Declaration of Independence to support their claims, "that all men are created equal"

show me where it states that in the Constitution. If the original COTUS didnt declare that, then it simply didnt exist as law according to Jillian, and hence, bigorty, racism, sexism, was and is legal

uh, bigotry, racism and sexism WAS legal. It's funny that you don't seem to realize that the "rights of man" dialog in the DOI was applied to white land owning men. Further, it's hilarious that you think the DOI defines anything legal beyond the colonial resistance to England given that blacks were origianlly 4/5ths human.

I bet lashing out and calling Jillian a wimpy little bitch with make this less true, you wimpy little bitch.

 

[Shogun]

Yes - as opposed to having created the United States, as the DoI did.

And I see you didnt answer my questions.

did you make any effort to answer mine when I was posting the words of colonial treaties?

Or, better yet, have you taken the time to read Jefferson's own notes about the DOI regarding the inclusion of religion as a necessity to invoke the population?

Not to mention that we still take our laws from the Constitution. The notion that the DOI is "the most important law of the US" is a pile of horse shit that is pure comedy gold.

 

[jillian]

Yes - as opposed to having created the United States, as the DoI did.

And I see you didnt answer my questions.

The Declaration was a statement of intent.

The Revolutionary War created this country and had the colonists lost, we'd still be speaking with British accents regardless of what the Declaration of Independence says.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The Declaration was a statement of intent.

The declaration was a statement of fact.

The Revolutionary War created this country...

No, the war allowed that fact to stand.

As such, it is the document upon which the US was founded.

 

[M14 Shooter]

did you make any effort to answer mine when I was posting the words of colonial treaties?

So, you dont want to have to tell me to whom or what they referred to when they used the term "Creator", in its capitalized form.

That's OK -- if I were you, I'd run away from that question, too.