Awesome to Be Catholic

[Warrior102]

I grew up Catholic, and as I became an adult and understood more about the salvation gifted us through Jesus Christ, the less I understood about this part of church doctrine. Since I couldn't explain it or agree with it, I eventually left. It's not in the power of the church or the priest to forgive your sins, there's nothing that I know of in the Bible that supports this. There's only one way for forgiveness, and it's not controled by an human or human entity, other than yourself.

Sure there is.

It's in there.

It's that whole "breathing" thing my friend.

That's where he gave apostles (men) the power to forgive sins.

I'd be curious to know what chapter(s)/verse(s) you're referring too here? And I'm asking as an honest question, I've never seen it, nor heard of it. John 14:6 is the most famous example, but there are many others that say the same thing.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I don't know how you get any more clear than that? I can't reconcile verses such as these and others with the catholic beleif that men can forgive the sins of other men in a capacity that deals with salvation.

No problem -

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This moment, when Jesus breathed on his apostles, constituted both the institution of the Catholic ministerial priesthood and the sacrament of confession. Christ gave his first priests, the apostles, the authority to forgive and retain sins. It was his intention that all sin be forgiven though the Church by aural confession of sins to the priests. We should realize that in Holy Scripture God breathed on man only twice: once when he breathed life into the clay of earth to create man (Genesis 2:7) and the second time when he breathed the life of grace into his Church. Both instances were that of an intimate, riveting moment between God and man. It is clear that the ability to forgive and retain sin given to the apostles, requires that each of us (even to this day) confess our sins to the priests of the Church so that our sins can be forgiven or retained.

 

[Newby]

That's not how the whole 'confession' thing works.

Well, I did a search and a Catholic website listed how they believe 'man' inherited the ability to forgive sin in God's stead and they listed chapters in Matthew, chapters 9 and 28 I believe. But what they're taking, or how they're interpreting those words to come to the conclusion that 'the church' can forgive sin, is very assumptive. I've read those chapters in the past, and I have never come to the conclusion that the church has come too from reading them.

They used Matthew 28:16

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

They're saying that what I bolded gives the church, or clergy of the church power to forgive sin. What I see is that He is telling them to go and baptize, and it's baptism that 'washes' you clean of sin and allows the holy spirit in. To say that gives the church authority to forgive sin via confession is really stretching it beyond its intent I think.

The other verse they reference is Matthew 9:4.

4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Here they are saying that the 'Son of Man' represents mankind, I think the Son of Man represents Christ only. The crowd saw him as a man and were awed by his power. I just don't see it plainly suggested that he gave such power to the disciples, who in turn could pass it onto the church, or men of the church.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

Right, and the Catholic church believed that to mean that the apostles passed this power onto their clergy, and their clergy only. Yet, that is never stated anywhere.

 

[Newby]

Sure there is.

It's in there.

It's that whole "breathing" thing my friend.

That's where he gave apostles (men) the power to forgive sins.

I'd be curious to know what chapter(s)/verse(s) you're referring too here? And I'm asking as an honest question, I've never seen it, nor heard of it. John 14:6 is the most famous example, but there are many others that say the same thing.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I don't know how you get any more clear than that? I can't reconcile verses such as these and others with the catholic beleif that men can forgive the sins of other men in a capacity that deals with salvation.

No problem -

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This moment, when Jesus breathed on his apostles, constituted both the institution of the Catholic ministerial priesthood and the sacrament of confession. Christ gave his first priests, the apostles, the authority to forgive and retain sins. It was his intention that all sin be forgiven though the Church by aural confession of sins to the priests. We should realize that in Holy Scripture God breathed on man only twice: once when he breathed life into the clay of earth to create man (Genesis 2:7) and the second time when he breathed the life of grace into his Church. Both instances were that of an intimate, riveting moment between God and man. It is clear that the ability to forgive and retain sin given to the apostles, requires that each of us (even to this day) confess our sins to the priests of the Church so that our sins can be forgiven or retained.

I don't see how they came to that conclusion from that verse, I guess I just don't agree with their interpretation of it. Where did the term 'Catholic' come up in there anywhere? You have to believe that Catholics are the only 'christians' then, which negates much of what the apostles taught in the new testament. There weren't any restrictions on who spread the word of Christ, or who baptized, there was no formal church.

 

[konradv]

Well, I did a search and a Catholic website listed how they believe 'man' inherited the ability to forgive sin in God's stead and they listed chapters in Matthew, chapters 9 and 28 I believe. But what they're taking, or how they're interpreting those words to come to the conclusion that 'the church' can forgive sin, is very assumptive. I've read those chapters in the past, and I have never come to the conclusion that the church has come too from reading them.

They used Matthew 28:16

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

They're saying that what I bolded gives the church, or clergy of the church power to forgive sin. What I see is that He is telling them to go and baptize, and it's baptism that 'washes' you clean of sin and allows the holy spirit in. To say that gives the church authority to forgive sin via confession is really stretching it beyond its intent I think.

The other verse they reference is Matthew 9:4.

4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Here they are saying that the 'Son of Man' represents mankind, I think the Son of Man represents Christ only. The crowd saw him as a man and were awed by his power. I just don't see it plainly suggested that he gave such power to the disciples, who in turn could pass it onto the church, or men of the church.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

Right, and the Catholic church believed that to mean that the apostles passed this power onto their clergy, and their clergy only. Yet, that is never stated anywhere.

What other clergy? Are there any other? Catholic means 'universal'. Anyone else would be some sort of heretic and anything they did would be worthless anyway. The only ones that actually reach the same level, since their argument was more procedural that doctrinal, would be Eastern Orthodox priests. Everyone else is pretty much wandering in the wilderness. Come home and be saved.

 

[Ravi]

Well, I did a search and a Catholic website listed how they believe 'man' inherited the ability to forgive sin in God's stead and they listed chapters in Matthew, chapters 9 and 28 I believe. But what they're taking, or how they're interpreting those words to come to the conclusion that 'the church' can forgive sin, is very assumptive. I've read those chapters in the past, and I have never come to the conclusion that the church has come too from reading them.

They used Matthew 28:16

16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

They're saying that what I bolded gives the church, or clergy of the church power to forgive sin. What I see is that He is telling them to go and baptize, and it's baptism that 'washes' you clean of sin and allows the holy spirit in. To say that gives the church authority to forgive sin via confession is really stretching it beyond its intent I think.

The other verse they reference is Matthew 9:4.

4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, “Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? 6 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins.” So he said to the paralyzed man, “Get up, take your mat and go home.” 7 Then the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe; and they praised God, who had given such authority to man.

Here they are saying that the 'Son of Man' represents mankind, I think the Son of Man represents Christ only. The crowd saw him as a man and were awed by his power. I just don't see it plainly suggested that he gave such power to the disciples, who in turn could pass it onto the church, or men of the church.

God had sent Jesus to forgive sins, but after his resurrection Jesus told the apostles, "‘As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, ‘Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained’" (John 20:21–23). (This is one of only two times we are told that God breathed on man, the other being in Genesis 2:7, when he made man a living soul. It emphasizes how important the establishment of the sacrament of penance was.)

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

Right, and the Catholic church believed that to mean that the apostles passed this power onto their clergy, and their clergy only. Yet, that is never stated anywhere.

I don't understand your confusion. They started the Catholic church, no? Why would they give their powers to someone that was not a member of their church?

 

[Newby]

The Forgiveness of Sins | Catholic Answers

Right, and the Catholic church believed that to mean that the apostles passed this power onto their clergy, and their clergy only. Yet, that is never stated anywhere.

I don't understand your confusion. They started the Catholic church, no? Why would they give their powers to someone that was not a member of their church?

Who is the 'they' to which you are referring?

 

[bodecea]

Great homily by a great priest today in our parish.

Topic was Liberal Catholics and Conservative Catholics. And why there is neither.

Got a reminder – none of the saints were either Liberal or Conservative. And CNN, MSNBC, John Kerry and Nancy Pelosi are no experts in defining a Catholic.

Only the church is.

All these pro-choice, contraceptive, same-sex Liberal "cafeteria" Catholics – you’re gonna burn in hell, unless you get to confession, stat.

King Obama – you will be remembered in the confessional, and in the election booth by Catholics and Christians nationwide coming up soon.

Maybe the Atheists and Muslims will give you a little boost.

We're not.

"King Obama"? I guess there is nothing in the Catholic Church against Bearing False Witness.

 

[bodecea]

Remember, the RCC is anti-war and anti-death penalty. Do you get on those "cafeteria" lines, too?

Wow, you're stupid/ignorant.

Wait...are you trying to deny that the RCC is anti-war/anti-death penalty.

 

[Warrior102]

Remember, the RCC is anti-war and anti-death penalty. Do you get on those "cafeteria" lines, too?

Wow, you're stupid/ignorant.

Wait...are you trying to deny that the RCC is anti-war/anti-death penalty.

Put your collection of dildo's down, carpetmunch, and look it up yourself where the church stands on the topic, ya fucking dingbat

 

[Warrior102]

I'd be curious to know what chapter(s)/verse(s) you're referring too here? And I'm asking as an honest question, I've never seen it, nor heard of it. John 14:6 is the most famous example, but there are many others that say the same thing.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I don't know how you get any more clear than that? I can't reconcile verses such as these and others with the catholic beleif that men can forgive the sins of other men in a capacity that deals with salvation.

No problem -

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This moment, when Jesus breathed on his apostles, constituted both the institution of the Catholic ministerial priesthood and the sacrament of confession. Christ gave his first priests, the apostles, the authority to forgive and retain sins. It was his intention that all sin be forgiven though the Church by aural confession of sins to the priests. We should realize that in Holy Scripture God breathed on man only twice: once when he breathed life into the clay of earth to create man (Genesis 2:7) and the second time when he breathed the life of grace into his Church. Both instances were that of an intimate, riveting moment between God and man. It is clear that the ability to forgive and retain sin given to the apostles, requires that each of us (even to this day) confess our sins to the priests of the Church so that our sins can be forgiven or retained.

I don't see how they came to that conclusion from that verse, I guess I just don't agree with their interpretation of it. Where did the term 'Catholic' come up in there anywhere? You have to believe that Catholics are the only 'christians' then, which negates much of what the apostles taught in the new testament. There weren't any restrictions on who spread the word of Christ, or who baptized, there was no formal church.

Roman Catholics were the first Christian religion. Then Eastern Orthodox - the two split in 1054. In the 16th century, the snake charmers and heathens... er, Protestants came into existence, splitting from the RC church.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Wow, you're stupid/ignorant.

Wait...are you trying to deny that the RCC is anti-war/anti-death penalty.

Put your collection of dildo's down, carpetmunch, and look it up yourself where the church stands on the topic, ya fucking dingbat

Obviously the conduct of a man who respects Jesus's Golden Rule.

 

[Warrior102]

Wait...are you trying to deny that the RCC is anti-war/anti-death penalty.

Put your collection of dildo's down, carpetmunch, and look it up yourself where the church stands on the topic, ya fucking dingbat

Obviously the conduct of a man who respects Jesus's Golden Rule.

What do you know about Christianity, you filthy Muslim...

 

[Newby]

No problem -

On the evening of the first day of the week, when the doors were locked, where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in their midst and said to them, “Peace be with you.” When he had said this he showed them his hands and his side. The disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained.”

This moment, when Jesus breathed on his apostles, constituted both the institution of the Catholic ministerial priesthood and the sacrament of confession. Christ gave his first priests, the apostles, the authority to forgive and retain sins. It was his intention that all sin be forgiven though the Church by aural confession of sins to the priests. We should realize that in Holy Scripture God breathed on man only twice: once when he breathed life into the clay of earth to create man (Genesis 2:7) and the second time when he breathed the life of grace into his Church. Both instances were that of an intimate, riveting moment between God and man. It is clear that the ability to forgive and retain sin given to the apostles, requires that each of us (even to this day) confess our sins to the priests of the Church so that our sins can be forgiven or retained.

I don't see how they came to that conclusion from that verse, I guess I just don't agree with their interpretation of it. Where did the term 'Catholic' come up in there anywhere? You have to believe that Catholics are the only 'christians' then, which negates much of what the apostles taught in the new testament. There weren't any restrictions on who spread the word of Christ, or who baptized, there was no formal church.

Roman Catholics were the first Christian religion. Then Eastern Orthodox - the two split in 1054. In the 16th century, the snake charmers and heathens... er, Protestants came into existence, splitting from the RC church.

Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior and is baptized in His name is a christian, whether they belong to any religion or not. The apostles and Christ's followers were the first christians, and they just followed His instructions to spread His word. I don't know that Christ ever envisioned any institution like the Catholic church, or any organized religion for that matter. That's the conclusion that I come to from reading the Bible anyway.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Put your collection of dildo's down, carpetmunch, and look it up yourself where the church stands on the topic, ya fucking dingbat

Obviously the conduct of a man who respects Jesus's Golden Rule.

What do you know about Christianity, you filthy Muslim...

I know Jesus taught people to treat one another the exact opposite of how you do it.


Like i said, you're the prime example of a one hour a week christian.

 

[Warrior102]

I don't see how they came to that conclusion from that verse, I guess I just don't agree with their interpretation of it. Where did the term 'Catholic' come up in there anywhere? You have to believe that Catholics are the only 'christians' then, which negates much of what the apostles taught in the new testament. There weren't any restrictions on who spread the word of Christ, or who baptized, there was no formal church.

Roman Catholics were the first Christian religion. Then Eastern Orthodox - the two split in 1054. In the 16th century, the snake charmers and heathens... er, Protestants came into existence, splitting from the RC church.

Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior and is baptized in His name is a christian, whether they belong to any religion or not. The apostles and Christ's followers were the first christians, and they just followed His instructions to spread His word. I don't know that Christ ever envisioned any institution like the Catholic church, or any organized religion for that matter. That's the conclusion that I come to from reading the Bible anyway.

It's all in the succession of the Pope's. Jesus heard Peter's confession and passed him the torch. Pope #1. Peter passed it to Linus, Linus to Cletus, to Clement, etc.

Here's the list.... CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes

 

[Warrior102]

Obviously the conduct of a man who respects Jesus's Golden Rule.

What do you know about Christianity, you filthy Muslim...

I know Jesus taught people to treat one another the exact opposite of how you do it.


Like i said, you're the prime example of a one hour a week christian.

You're not too bright on Christianity. What's Islam taught you.

 

[Dr.Drock]

What do you know about Christianity, you filthy Muslim...

I know Jesus taught people to treat one another the exact opposite of how you do it.


Like i said, you're the prime example of a one hour a week christian.

You're not too bright on Christianity. What's Islam taught you.

"Talk shit to everyone, even those of the same religion as you, if they have the least bit different view of religion as you do. Also condemn them all to hell Warrior102, I grant you the authority."


Find me a quote from Jesus that's similar to that, and I'll understand why you act like a 6th grade boy who just sat on crowbar.

 

[Warrior102]

I know Jesus taught people to treat one another the exact opposite of how you do it.


Like i said, you're the prime example of a one hour a week christian.

You're not too bright on Christianity. What's Islam taught you.

"Talk shit to everyone, even those of the same religion as you, if they have the least bit different view of religion as you do. Also condemn them all to hell Warrior102, I grant you the authority."


Find me a quote from Jesus that's similar to that, and I'll understand why you act like a 6th grade boy who just sat on crowbar.

Find it yourself, asswipe.
I'm not your personal secretary.

 

[Newby]

Roman Catholics were the first Christian religion. Then Eastern Orthodox - the two split in 1054. In the 16th century, the snake charmers and heathens... er, Protestants came into existence, splitting from the RC church.

Anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their savior and is baptized in His name is a christian, whether they belong to any religion or not. The apostles and Christ's followers were the first christians, and they just followed His instructions to spread His word. I don't know that Christ ever envisioned any institution like the Catholic church, or any organized religion for that matter. That's the conclusion that I come to from reading the Bible anyway.

It's all in the succession of the Pope's. Jesus heard Peter's confession and passed him the torch. Pope #1. Peter passed it to Linus, Linus to Cletus, to Clement, etc.

Here's the list.... CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: List of Popes

But Peter himself never knew he was a 'catholic pope', let alone the first one. The first Council of Nicea was around 325 AD, long after he and the rest of the apostles were long gone. If you ask me, they took the scriptures, interpreted them to their own advantage and created a power structure that lasts until this day. Altho, certainly not as politically powerful now as they once were.

 

[Dr.Drock]

You're not too bright on Christianity. What's Islam taught you.

"Talk shit to everyone, even those of the same religion as you, if they have the least bit different view of religion as you do. Also condemn them all to hell Warrior102, I grant you the authority."


Find me a quote from Jesus that's similar to that, and I'll understand why you act like a 6th grade boy who just sat on crowbar.

Find it yourself, asswipe.
I'm not your personal secretary.

Alright i'll find it, but first i gotta find a spotted unicorn.

Next time you're in church, listen. You shouldn't need to be educated about your religion by infidels like me, but obviously you do.

Have a great day.