Baker must make gay cakes

[Mac1958]

So you can weep for the bigots having to mind their Ps and Qs, but frankly, I'm all for living in a civil society.

Not me.

I don't mind -- let me put this more accurately, I cherish -- a messy society in which people are free to actually say what they're thinking without fear of some kind of retribution. That's what made America so dynamic and exciting and (yes) progressive. Freedom is messy and difficult, and it inspires brilliance and innovation. Sure, there are some who use that freedom to lie and distort and retard that brilliance (partisan ideologues, for example), but I'll take that over what you want.

The American Left wants everyone to just shut up and conform to the Central Authority. That's nice and easy and comfy. Shut up ad get in line. Gawd. Freedom isn't easy, I'm afraid, and it requires personal responsibility. That is why the Left has put so much effort into making "personal responsibility" a negative, and you're getting what you want.

In a generation you'll have what you want - a country of dispirited people who gave away their freedom in return for "easy". Congrats.

.

 

[JoeB131]

So you can weep for the bigots having to mind their Ps and Qs, but frankly, I'm all for living in a civil society.

Not me.

I don't mind -- let me put this more accurately, I cherish -- a messy society in which people are free to actually say what they're thinking without fear of some kind of retribution. That's what made America so dynamic and exciting and (yes) progressive. Freedom is messy and difficult, and it inspires brilliance and innovation. Sure, there are some who use that freedom to lie and distort and retard that brilliance (partisan ideologues, for example), but I'll take that over what you want.

The American Left wants everyone to just shut up and conform to the Central Authority. That's nice and easy and comfy. Shut up ad get in line. Gawd. Freedom isn't easy, I'm afraid, and it requires personal responsibility. That is why the Left has put so much effort into making "personal responsibility" a negative, and you're getting what you want.

In a generation you'll have what you want - a country of dispirited people who gave away their freedom in return for "easy". Congrats.

.

Sorry, guy, whenever I hear a Conservatard talk about "Freedom", it usually means, "The ability of those with money and power to abuse those of us without it."

"Personal Responsibility" is usually code for "I've got mine, fuck you!"

Like I said, I was as right wing as the nuttiest right winger here, until I had the bad luck to get sick and found out that a world where we have "Freedom" usually means someone will screw you if they've got more "Freedom" than you do.

I'd rather live in a society of rules where everyone has to play by them, thanks.

Now, on this Cake business, here you have people motivated by hate and sexual insecurity and religious stupidity insisting that they need to have this last bastion for their bigotry. FOr decades, they denied gays jobs, housing, equal recongintion for their relationships, and one by one, they found they could no longer rationalize those positions.

SO now their last stand is, 'Well, well, just don't make me provide the business services I promised!"

Sorry, can't be sympathetic. just put the two plastic dudes on top of the cake and shut up.

 

[martybegan]

[
My point is the same as always: I want to know who the crazies are, where they are, what they are thinking and who agrees with them. And nothing flushes them out better or faster than the freedom to say what they are thinking. I can then engage in the heavy lifting of trying to change their hearts and minds. I'm not afraid of having them be heard.

Oh, I could go on, but there is no reason to. I've said all this a hundred times, and it's always taken out of context or distorted or spun.

I just hate seeing what you folks are doing -- especially from the side of the spectrum that has always claimed to value diversity and inclusion and freedom of expression and the challenging of the norm -- and I certainly realize there's nothing I can do about it. I've pretty much completed my grieving process for this country, now I'm just observing the decay.

.

It's not a matter of "not letting them say what they think".

People can always say what they think. But when you say it, there are consequences.

I could go into my boss's office and tell him I think he's a complete douchebag. (Incidentally this isn't what I think, but let's use this as an example.) Okay. Wonderful. I have the freedom to do that, but since I don't have a contract or union, he's got the freedom to terminate my employment.

Similarly, I could go on ranting about "*******" or "Fags" in the workplace, but my black and gay co-workers would have a right to complain.

Now, in this case, a business is running a public accommodation. Which means that all of us are paying for the infrastructure for him to be able to do that, from roads leading to his business to police making sure no one breaks in and steals his cookies. 50 years ago, we decided he couldn't refuse to serve blacks. Now we are deciding he can't refuse to serve gays, either. seems pretty reasonable.

So you can weep for the bigots having to mind their Ps and Qs, but frankly, I'm all for living in a civil society.

The person pays for said infrastructure via their taxes, its not like they get it for free. That is some of the dumbest logic for making people do something they do not want to do I have ever seen.

 

[Mac1958]

So you can weep for the bigots having to mind their Ps and Qs, but frankly, I'm all for living in a civil society.

Not me.

I don't mind -- let me put this more accurately, I cherish -- a messy society in which people are free to actually say what they're thinking without fear of some kind of retribution. That's what made America so dynamic and exciting and (yes) progressive. Freedom is messy and difficult, and it inspires brilliance and innovation. Sure, there are some who use that freedom to lie and distort and retard that brilliance (partisan ideologues, for example), but I'll take that over what you want.

The American Left wants everyone to just shut up and conform to the Central Authority. That's nice and easy and comfy. Shut up ad get in line. Gawd. Freedom isn't easy, I'm afraid, and it requires personal responsibility. That is why the Left has put so much effort into making "personal responsibility" a negative, and you're getting what you want.

In a generation you'll have what you want - a country of dispirited people who gave away their freedom in return for "easy". Congrats.

.

Sorry, guy, whenever I hear a Conservatard talk about "Freedom", it usually means, "The ability of those with money and power to abuse those of us without it."

"Personal Responsibility" is usually code for "I've got mine, fuck you!"

Like I said, I was as right wing as the nuttiest right winger here, until I had the bad luck to get sick and found out that a world where we have "Freedom" usually means someone will screw you if they've got more "Freedom" than you do.

I'd rather live in a society of rules where everyone has to play by them, thanks.

Now, on this Cake business, here you have people motivated by hate and sexual insecurity and religious stupidity insisting that they need to have this last bastion for their bigotry. FOr decades, they denied gays jobs, housing, equal recongintion for their relationships, and one by one, they found they could no longer rationalize those positions.

SO now their last stand is, 'Well, well, just don't make me provide the business services I promised!"

Sorry, can't be sympathetic. just put the two plastic dudes on top of the cake and shut up.

We both know, that you know, I'm not a conservative. I'd list all the issues on which I disagree with them, but I'd be wasting my time. So if lying and name-calling are important to you -- and we both know they are -- go for it, call me what you will.

I know what you folks want, and while I passionately disagree, I realize there's nothing I can do about it. It's just very sad to watch.

.

 

[martybegan]

So you can weep for the bigots having to mind their Ps and Qs, but frankly, I'm all for living in a civil society.

Not me.

I don't mind -- let me put this more accurately, I cherish -- a messy society in which people are free to actually say what they're thinking without fear of some kind of retribution. That's what made America so dynamic and exciting and (yes) progressive. Freedom is messy and difficult, and it inspires brilliance and innovation. Sure, there are some who use that freedom to lie and distort and retard that brilliance (partisan ideologues, for example), but I'll take that over what you want.

The American Left wants everyone to just shut up and conform to the Central Authority. That's nice and easy and comfy. Shut up ad get in line. Gawd. Freedom isn't easy, I'm afraid, and it requires personal responsibility. That is why the Left has put so much effort into making "personal responsibility" a negative, and you're getting what you want.

In a generation you'll have what you want - a country of dispirited people who gave away their freedom in return for "easy". Congrats.

.

Sorry, guy, whenever I hear a Conservatard talk about "Freedom", it usually means, "The ability of those with money and power to abuse those of us without it."

"Personal Responsibility" is usually code for "I've got mine, fuck you!"

Like I said, I was as right wing as the nuttiest right winger here, until I had the bad luck to get sick and found out that a world where we have "Freedom" usually means someone will screw you if they've got more "Freedom" than you do.

I'd rather live in a society of rules where everyone has to play by them, thanks.

Now, on this Cake business, here you have people motivated by hate and sexual insecurity and religious stupidity insisting that they need to have this last bastion for their bigotry. FOr decades, they denied gays jobs, housing, equal recongintion for their relationships, and one by one, they found they could no longer rationalize those positions.

SO now their last stand is, 'Well, well, just don't make me provide the business services I promised!"

Sorry, can't be sympathetic. just put the two plastic dudes on top of the cake and shut up.

So I guess the 2nd amendment is not the only one you hate.

 

[JoeB131]

[

The person pays for said infrastructure via their taxes, its not like they get it for free. That is some of the dumbest logic for making people do something they do not want to do I have ever seen.

The amount most businesses pay in taxes is nowhere near what it costs to provide the infrastructure.

In fact, quite the reverse, we give all sorts of tax breaks to businesses the rest of us end up paying for.

Which by the way, I have no problem with. I honestly want those services to be readily available when I need them.

 

[JoeB131]

[

So I guess the 2nd amendment is not the only one you hate.

Not a first Amendment issue, guy.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Businesses don't have religions. Businesses have to comply with all the laws applicable to businesses.

 

[JoeB131]

[

We both know, that you know, I'm not a conservative. I'd list all the issues on which I disagree with them, but I'd be wasting my time. So if lying and name-calling are important to you -- and we both know they are -- go for it, call me what you will.

I know what you folks want, and while I passionately disagree, I realize there's nothing I can do about it. It's just very sad to watch.

.

I'm honestly not sure what your deal is anymore, guy. You seem to think making a company do what it promised is Josef Stalin sending folks to the Gulag or some shit, and it's kind of hard to take you seriously.

I want to stick a thumb in the eye of religious assholes at every opportunity. I've seen employees fired for being gay. I've seen so much bad behavior by businesses in the last 22 years since I left the military that I just cannot generate a lot of sympathy for them. I just can't.

 

[Seawytch]

What you asked was a falsity. It never happened. Since the baker didn't refuse to serve gay people all you really have is a hypothetical. IF the baker had refused to serve gay people would that be an exercise of religion? Then of course you are bollixed up by the fact that he didn't refuse to serve anyone.

If you offer a service to the public, then you are subject to public accommodation laws.
If the service you offer to the public includes baking cakes, then you are subject to public accommodation laws pertaining to baking cakes.
No, you cannot be forced to bake "mature themed" cakes as that is another type of service.
No, you cannot be forced to write "The questions in this thread are mostly an admission ignorance with some on the conservative side being deliberately obtuse" because that too would be a different kind of service.
If you opened up a shop that offered adult themed cakes with offensive messages, then that service would be subject to public accommodation... and special zoning!...laws.

Except this is not about public accommodation laws because these businesses do not meet the constitutional definition of public accommodations.

Excuse me? What business does not meet the definition of public accommodation, the baker? Did you completely miss the ruling that the thread is about?

 

[Seawytch]

When the bible states that homosexuality is a sin, and I deliberately bake a gay wedding cake in support of homosexuality, I am abandoning my faith. I'll go to jail first!!!

bible<laws

State law prohibits businesses from refusing to serve customers based on their sexual orientation.

end of conversation

That's why I would choose to go to jail rather than renounce my faith. For me there is no contest.

Wow...that's a little hyperbolic isn't it? "Renounce" your faith? Who would Jesus refuse to serve?

 

[Seawytch]

Didn't Jefferson say that there is no case of tyranny clearer than the government forcing people to violate their conscience?

And yet you have no problem with forcing this man to make a gay wedding cake because now gay is the new crusade that you progressives shove on everyone like it or not, beliefs or not.

Seriously, what ever happened to liberals having tolerance for other peoples values and beliefs?

Seems to have vanished into the thick smoke screen of self-righteous leftist triumphalism.

Just like restaurants were "forced" to serve blacks and interracial couples, despite the fact that it violated their conscience.

When you partner with a locality to own a business, you agree that you will abide by the laws of the locality. Many localities have public accommodation laws and some even include "the gheys".

There are even Federal Protections that say you must serve people and can't deny them based on certain things like race, country of origin, gender, etc. You've read the Civil Rights Act, yes?

By party
The original House version:

Democratic Party: 152–96 (61–39%)
Republican Party: 138–34 (80–20%)
Cloture in the Senate:[20]

Democratic Party: 44–23 (66–34%)
Republican Party: 27–6 (82–18%)
The Senate version:[19]

Democratic Party: 46–21 (69–31%)
Republican Party: 27–6 (82–18%)
The Senate version, voted on by the House:[19]

Democratic Party: 153–91 (63–37%)
Republican Party: 136–35 (80–20%)

Actually, if you actually go look at history, you will see that Jim Crow laws forced restaurants not to serve blacks. But thanks for proving this is about something other than right and wrong with you, it is all about you winning.

Riiiiggghhhttt...people really did want to serve the N words...the mean gubmit wouldn't let them. Puhleesse.

 

[Seawytch]

If gays want two boy dollies on their cake they can go to their local Walmart and buy two boy dollies. Don't force the baker to do something that goes against his conscience. See how easy that is?

We only see how easy it is for you and most others on the right to maintain your ignorance and hate.

Again, no one is being ‘forced’ to do anything, where public accommodations laws are being appropriately and consistently applied. It’s incumbent upon business owners to know, understand, and comply with the laws as a condition of doing business; they can’t decide to follow some laws and ignore others, just as any other resident of Colorado is expected to follow the law.

What makes infringing on religious liberty appropriate?

Well gosh darn, it isn't appropriate to infringe on someones religious liberty. Good thing nobody is.

 

[Seawytch]

The law in Colorado protects sexual orientation in public accommodation. You are not going to overturn public accommodation law. You aren't going to overturn Colorado's equal protection.

It isn't equal protection to make a guy bake a gay themed cake if he doesn't want to. And don't be so quick about the 'thou shall never overturn...' mantra. Many states have had laws that proved to be unconstitutional. All it takes is the right catalyst to make it to the Supreme Court where I don't believe it will pass muster.

The baker was asked to make a wedding cake, period. Not a "gay" cake, a wedding cake. The baker was not asked to provide a product or item they don't normally provide.

 

[Seawytch]

Being black is not condemned in the Bible. Being homosexual is.

And yet the bible WAS used to justify anti miscegenation laws AND slavery. Good fucking thing it's Constitutionally irrelevant.

And the Koran is being used to justify hanging homosexuals in Iran, but for some obscure reason, all you care about is wedding cakes.

I don't live in Iran, I live in America...but for some obscure reason you guys like to conflate things that are unrelated.

 

[Jughead]

bible<laws



end of conversation

That's why I would choose to go to jail rather than renounce my faith. For me there is no contest.

Wow...that's a little hyperbolic isn't it? "Renounce" your faith? Who would Jesus refuse to serve?

I would not refuse to serve anyone, and have in fact worked with gays before. What I will not do is participate in any type of gay themed event, or support of any such event. If someone were to ask me to attend a gay wedding, I'd politely decline, same goes for preparing a gay wedding cake. If I were ordered by a court of law to renounce my faith and attend a gay wedding, or bake a gay wedding cake, I'd chose to go to jail, hands down. There is no contest, my faith always comes first.

 

[Mac1958]

I'm honestly not sure what your deal is anymore, guy.

Well yes, that's because you're now only comfortable communicating with other hardcore partisan ideologues, either fellow left-wingers or the hated right-wingers. It's nice and easy, it can be done by rote, all arguments are easy to decipher and deliver. This is what happens to virtually all hardcore partisan ideologues, and it's a primary reason why political communication is now so damaged.

Those of us who see nuance and choose to think for ourselves - the majority - can only watch at this point as you folks fight your battles with each other, essentially playing the part of deck hands on a sinking ship.

Back to the point, though -- you're going to have the conformity and authoritarianism you want so badly. I'll be curious to know what you folks think of it, once you have it.

.

 

[Freewill]

this is just a situation that is keeping "gayness" in the news and I think that is what gays want. Any news is better then no news. So the guy wouldn't bake cake for you boo hoo go somewhere else. It isn't about the cake it is about forcing people to accept a view no matter how it conflicts with a person's sincerely held beliefs. Are those FORCING, or trying to FORCE, this baker to make them a cake really going to feel good about the cake if he does? But they really don't give a crap they might even throw it away when done why would they want a cake baked by someone that thinks this way about their chosen life style?

This isn't about freedom it is about forcing the will of a very small percentage of the population onto everyone else. It isn't enough to live and let live, NO the liberal view must be accepted no compromise, no matter how small, can be allowed!!!

 

[JoeB131]

I'm honestly not sure what your deal is anymore, guy.

Well yes, that's because you're now only comfortable communicating with other hardcore partisan ideologues, either fellow left-wingers or the hated right-wingers. It's nice and easy, it can be done by rote, all arguments are easy to decipher and deliver. This is what happens to virtually all hardcore partisan ideologues, and it's a primary reason why political communication is now so damaged.

Those of us who see nuance and choose to think for ourselves - the majority - can only watch at this point as you folks fight your battles with each other, essentially playing the part of deck hands on a sinking ship.

Back to the point, though -- you're going to have the conformity and authoritarianism you want so badly. I'll be curious to know what you folks think of it, once you have it.

.

I'm not an idealogue, I'm a cynic.

I simply do not give a fuck that some bigot has to bake a cake.

You know why I really, really like sticking it to the religious nuts? Because without them, the GOP would have never nominated that Idiot George W. Bush, who proceeded to fuck up the country. The GOP would have nominated someone like JOhn McCain in 2000, and we'd have been better off for it.

We aren't in bad shape because some bigot has to bake a cake.

We are in bad shape because the bigots drove the getaway car when the Plutocrats did a drive-by on the middle class.

 

[JoeB131]

this is just a situation that is keeping "gayness" in the news and I think that is what gays want. Any news is better then no news. So the guy wouldn't bake cake for you boo hoo go somewhere else. It isn't about the cake it is about forcing people to accept a view no matter how it conflicts with a person's sincerely held beliefs. Are those FORCING, or trying to FORCE, this baker to make them a cake really going to feel good about the cake if he does? But they really don't give a crap they might even throw it away when done why would they want a cake baked by someone that thinks this way about their chosen life style?

This isn't about freedom it is about forcing the will of a very small percentage of the population onto everyone else. It isn't enough to live and let live, NO the liberal view must be accepted no compromise, no matter how small, can be allowed!!!

I think you are losing the plot.

In the cases involved, Bakers and photographers refused to do the jobs they contracted to do AFTER they found out the couples in question were gay.

 

[Seawytch]

That's why I would choose to go to jail rather than renounce my faith. For me there is no contest.

Wow...that's a little hyperbolic isn't it? "Renounce" your faith? Who would Jesus refuse to serve?

I would not refuse to serve anyone, and have in fact worked with gays before. What I will not do is participate in any type of gay themed event, or support of any such event. If someone were to ask me to attend a gay wedding, I'd politely decline, same goes for preparing a gay wedding cake. If I were ordered by a court of law to renounce my faith and attend a gay wedding, or bake a gay wedding cake, I'd chose to go to jail, hands down. There is no contest, my faith always comes first.

Don't open a bakery in a locality with public accommodation laws that cover the gheys and you'll be fine. You'll still have to bake cakes for the blacks, Muslims, and the cripples, but hey, you'll be saved from getting the ghey on ya!

Would you bake a cake for a divorced and remarrying couple?