Bernie Sanders: We Will Raise Taxes On Anyone Making Over $29,000 To Fund Government Health Care

[Ray From Cleveland]

List the new drugs released by a socialist nation in the past 25 years.
I’ll wait.

No idea why you think you need to go there. Germany develops a ton of drugs but still has a system where everyone can afford to see a doctor when need be.

List the drugs created

List of Pharmaceutical Companies in Germany - Pharmapproach.com

They have pharmaceutical companies everywhere, but it doesn't' mean the drugs they make are actually created there. For instance, some drugs that are refused by the FDA are available in other countries.

Yep. Did testing in Canada and Europe because they have less stringent regulations.

Bottom line is that if you really look into it, the cost of our medical care is largely due to our government. Law suits, regulations, red tape, unnecessary testing, all of it. People making profit encourages them to make more profit.

I'm fortunate enough to be a patient at the world renown Cleveland Clinic. I can testify that when you go to their downtown campus, you are the one who feels like a foreigner. They come here from other countries either trained, or get educated here, and they don't return home. Why? Because in their socialized medical care countries, they don't make crap for the time and work it took them to get educated enough to be a doctor.

 

[Flash]

My god socialism is stupid. No wonder it fails to some degree or another no matter where or how it is implemented.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy?

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

I'll take that as a "no".

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit. That's not true. As I said though, you want a profit you forgo all taxpayer money. Why is that not fair? Why should the taxpayers fund the development for others to get the profit?

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit.

You pretend that things will work better if there is no profit.

 

[pknopp]

Eliminate the profit angle and there is no reason it shouldn't.

It worked for college tuition...….LOL!

What are you talking about? There is a ton of profit in college tuition. There is even a lawsuit recently filed over that.

There is a ton of profit in college tuition.

Most colleges are non-profits.

That isn't what was said.

Because when government gets involved, stuff gets cheaper......DURR. <like college tuition, eh?
Eliminate the profit angle and there is no reason it shouldn't. <non-profit tuition getting cheaper?​

Yes, absolutely. Banks get money at near zero interest rates. If students got the same it would be cheaper.

 

[Flash]

All you rich folks making $14 an hour need to bear the burden.

Sanders: Families Making $29,000 Will ‘Pay More In Taxes’ For Medicare For All - The Partnership for America’s Health Care Future

I doubt if most Democrat voters make that much.

 

[pknopp]

My god socialism is stupid. No wonder it fails to some degree or another no matter where or how it is implemented.

Tell Trump and his bail outs that.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

List the new drugs released by a socialist nation in the past 25 years.
I’ll wait.

No idea why you think you need to go there. Germany develops a ton of drugs but still has a system where everyone can afford to see a doctor when need be.

List the drugs created

List of Pharmaceutical Companies in Germany - Pharmapproach.com

They have pharmaceutical companies everywhere, but it doesn't' mean the drugs they make are actually created there. For instance, some drugs that are refused by the FDA are available in other countries.

If you want to believe all those companies develop nothing, well you can own that belief.

I never said nothing, but I'd be willing to say that the bulk of miracle drugs that do come out are from the US.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Okay, now I know what you're talking about.

I contacted my cousin who is a research doctor years ago about that. She sent me back an explanation of what really goes on.

In short, pharmaceutical companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to get a new drug on the market. After all this money spent, and all the time to get FDA approval (sometimes up to ten years) they have to make that money back.

Okay, so what happens when the drug companies spend all that time and money, and get rejected by the FDA? They recoup those losses on the drugs they already have on the market. It's the only way to stay in business.

Like doctors and hospitals, there is an expectation of liability in this country. So in the medications we buy, there is an intrinsic cost we all pay for legal protection. Just look at what the companies that manufacture opioid products are going through now.

When the media reports on things like this, all they tell you is that so and so produce a pill for twenty cents, and sell it for twenty dollars, but they never explain why.

Remove the profit.

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy? You dismissed the idea that profit is payment for services rendered, but it is that, and more. It's a deliberate allocation of society's resources. It's people deliberately giving their money to the those who can best provide them with their wants and needs. That's a good thing. We want the people who are good at managing capital and labor to have more capital and labor to manage. The people who are best to have the most. Because they've proven they'll do things we like with that power. And if they don't, we'll stop giving them our money.

When we "eliminate profit" we break that feedback loop. We're essentially saying to consumers, "You're doing it wrong", that the priorities and values expressed by society via the market aren't valid and only government overseers can make the call. That, to me, is about as undemocratic as it gets. You'll may find consolation in the notion that you get to vote for the overseers every few years, but that's a sad replacement for the real time feedback of a free market - where "voters" can express themselves every day.

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

Non profits don't work?

You have a list of drugs that a non-profit has run from discovery thru trials thru FDA approval to release?
The top 5 should be plenty.

We unfortunately do not work that way. Its the way I am arguing for.

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

We unfortunately do not work that way.

Why not? Universities do most of the work...…..

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

Insulin is more complicated, and better, than when it was extracted from pigs.

 

[pknopp]

No idea why you think you need to go there. Germany develops a ton of drugs but still has a system where everyone can afford to see a doctor when need be.

List the drugs created

List of Pharmaceutical Companies in Germany - Pharmapproach.com

They have pharmaceutical companies everywhere, but it doesn't' mean the drugs they make are actually created there. For instance, some drugs that are refused by the FDA are available in other countries.

Yep. Did testing in Canada and Europe because they have less stringent regulations.

Bottom line is that if you really look into it, the cost of our medical care is largely due to our government. Law suits, regulations, red tape, unnecessary testing, all of it. People making profit encourages them to make more profit.

I'm fortunate enough to be a patient at the world renown Cleveland Clinic. I can testify that when you go to their downtown campus, you are the one who feels like a foreigner. They come here from other countries either trained, or get educated here, and they don't return home. Why? Because in their socialized medical care countries, they don't make crap for the time and work it took them to get educated enough to be a doctor.

Yes, the rich all around the world can afford to go there. Many who live in the neighborhood can not.

P.S. I lived in a house on property that the Cleveland Clinic is now located on. I went to the Cleveland Clinic when it was just the clinic on Euclid Avenue.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

It worked for college tuition...….LOL!

What are you talking about? There is a ton of profit in college tuition. There is even a lawsuit recently filed over that.

There is a ton of profit in college tuition.

Most colleges are non-profits.

That isn't what was said.

Because when government gets involved, stuff gets cheaper......DURR. <like college tuition, eh?
Eliminate the profit angle and there is no reason it shouldn't. <non-profit tuition getting cheaper?​

Yes, absolutely. Banks get money at near zero interest rates. If students got the same it would be cheaper.

Banks get money at near zero interest rates.

Where do they get this cheap money?

If students got the same it would be cheaper.

Government didn't remove profit from student borrowing?

 

[pknopp]

Remove the profit.

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy? You dismissed the idea that profit is payment for services rendered, but it is that, and more. It's a deliberate allocation of society's resources. It's people deliberately giving their money to the those who can best provide them with their wants and needs. That's a good thing. We want the people who are good at managing capital and labor to have more capital and labor to manage. The people who are best to have the most. Because they've proven they'll do things we like with that power. And if they don't, we'll stop giving them our money.

When we "eliminate profit" we break that feedback loop. We're essentially saying to consumers, "You're doing it wrong", that the priorities and values expressed by society via the market aren't valid and only government overseers can make the call. That, to me, is about as undemocratic as it gets. You'll may find consolation in the notion that you get to vote for the overseers every few years, but that's a sad replacement for the real time feedback of a free market - where "voters" can express themselves every day.

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

Non profits don't work?

You have a list of drugs that a non-profit has run from discovery thru trials thru FDA approval to release?
The top 5 should be plenty.

We unfortunately do not work that way. Its the way I am arguing for.

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

We unfortunately do not work that way.

Why not? Universities do most of the work...…..

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

Insulin is more complicated, and better, than when it was extracted from pigs.

You asked. I answered. We charge many times higher than other countries.

 

[dblack]

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy?

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

I'll take that as a "no".

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit.

No, that was just your silly brain building a strawman.

As I said though, you want a profit you forgo all taxpayer money. Why is that not fair? Why should the taxpayers fund the development for others to get the profit?

I totally agree with this diversion.

But getting back to this "eliminate profit" thing. It really just suggests you have no idea what role profit plays. Do you? Do you think it's just "money for nothing"?

I saw really interesting speaker in the nineties. He was a former economist and planner for the Soviet Union. He talked at length about the frustrating difficulties of trying to efficiently allocate resources and labor in a command economy. He said that they tried to decentralize the network of decision makers, tried to build incentive structures into their pay, etc... but nothing produced anything like the efficiency and responsiveness of a market of consumers making their own decisions about what they valued. Leaving it up to bureaucrats and state agencies replaced consumer spending with political influence as the principle driver of major economic decisions.

 

[pknopp]

What are you talking about? There is a ton of profit in college tuition. There is even a lawsuit recently filed over that.

There is a ton of profit in college tuition.

Most colleges are non-profits.

That isn't what was said.

Because when government gets involved, stuff gets cheaper......DURR. <like college tuition, eh?
Eliminate the profit angle and there is no reason it shouldn't. <non-profit tuition getting cheaper?​

Yes, absolutely. Banks get money at near zero interest rates. If students got the same it would be cheaper.

Banks get money at near zero interest rates.

Where do they get this cheap money?

From the magic of the Federal Reserve.

If students got the same it would be cheaper.

Government didn't remove profit from student borrowing?

No.

 

[pknopp]

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy?

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

I'll take that as a "no".

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit.

No, that was just your silly brain building a strawman.

As I said though, you want a profit you forgo all taxpayer money. Why is that not fair? Why should the taxpayers fund the development for others to get the profit?

I totally agree with this diversion.

But getting back to this "eliminate profit" thing. It really just suggests you have no idea what role profit plays. Do you? Do you think it's just "money for nothing"?

I saw really interesting speaker in the nineties. He was a former economist and planner for the Soviet Union. He talked at length about the frustrating difficulties of trying to efficiently allocate resources and labor in a command economy. He said that they tried to decentralize the network of decision makers, tried to build incentive structures into their pay, etc... but nothing produced anything like the efficiency and responsiveness of a market of consumers making their own decisions about what they valued. Leaving it up to bureaucrats and state agencies replaced consumer spending with political influence as the principle driver of major economic decisions.

So non profits do not work? You (and others) continue to avoid this question.

 

[Ray From Cleveland]

Okay, now I know what you're talking about.

I contacted my cousin who is a research doctor years ago about that. She sent me back an explanation of what really goes on.

In short, pharmaceutical companies spend hundreds of millions of dollars trying to get a new drug on the market. After all this money spent, and all the time to get FDA approval (sometimes up to ten years) they have to make that money back.

Okay, so what happens when the drug companies spend all that time and money, and get rejected by the FDA? They recoup those losses on the drugs they already have on the market. It's the only way to stay in business.

Like doctors and hospitals, there is an expectation of liability in this country. So in the medications we buy, there is an intrinsic cost we all pay for legal protection. Just look at what the companies that manufacture opioid products are going through now.

When the media reports on things like this, all they tell you is that so and so produce a pill for twenty cents, and sell it for twenty dollars, but they never explain why.

Remove the profit.

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy? You dismissed the idea that profit is payment for services rendered, but it is that, and more. It's a deliberate allocation of society's resources. It's people deliberately giving their money to the those who can best provide them with their wants and needs. That's a good thing. We want the people who are good at managing capital and labor to have more capital and labor to manage. The people who are best to have the most. Because they've proven they'll do things we like with that power. And if they don't, we'll stop giving them our money.

When we "eliminate profit" we break that feedback loop. We're essentially saying to consumers, "You're doing it wrong", that the priorities and values expressed by society via the market aren't valid and only government overseers can make the call. That, to me, is about as undemocratic as it gets. You'll may find consolation in the notion that you get to vote for the overseers every few years, but that's a sad replacement for the real time feedback of a free market - where "voters" can express themselves every day.

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

Non profits don't work?

You have a list of drugs that a non-profit has run from discovery thru trials thru FDA approval to release?
The top 5 should be plenty.

We unfortunately do not work that way. Its the way I am arguing for.

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

You are partly correct. As an insulin dependent diabetic, I experience it.

The price of insulin kept getting higher and higher, mostly during the Obama years. I contacted the company to ask why, and got no real satisfactory answer. I did research on the internet, again, a dead end.

So when I went to my grocery store, just for the hell of it I asked about what they charge for insulin? They gave me a price of 40 bucks a vial. I use four a month and pay cash. But the pharmacist told me about Walmart generic insulin. Walmart insulin? Not in your life! You have to be nuts!!!

As time progressed, insulin continued to get more expensive. Out of desperation, I decided to take that grocery stores pharmacists advice. I went to Walmart.

When I got there, I only ordered one vial because I thought I'd have to contact my physician first. When she handed it to me, it was only $25.00. When I got home and opened it up, I realized it was not Walmart insulin at all. It was the same insulin from the same company I always purchased it from. The only difference was a tiny ® on the package, which stood for the name Reliance, the generic Walmart name.

The company that makes the insulin made a dirty deal with Walmart. They gave them a huge discounted rate on insulin, and dramatically increased it on every other pharmacy. I think, that should be illegal.

 

[dblack]

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy?

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

I'll take that as a "no".

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit.

No, that was just your silly brain building a strawman.

As I said though, you want a profit you forgo all taxpayer money. Why is that not fair? Why should the taxpayers fund the development for others to get the profit?

I totally agree with this diversion.

But getting back to this "eliminate profit" thing. It really just suggests you have no idea what role profit plays. Do you? Do you think it's just "money for nothing"?

I saw really interesting speaker in the nineties. He was a former economist and planner for the Soviet Union. He talked at length about the frustrating difficulties of trying to efficiently allocate resources and labor in a command economy. He said that they tried to decentralize the network of decision makers, tried to build incentive structures into their pay, etc... but nothing produced anything like the efficiency and responsiveness of a market of consumers making their own decisions about what they valued. Leaving it up to bureaucrats and state agencies replaced consumer spending with political influence as the principle driver of major economic decisions.

So non profits do not work? You (and others) continue to avoid this question.

You're not really going to play this kind of game, are you? I mean is that all you got? I never said non-profits don't work. They work fine. Has absolutely nothing to do with my post and why you're desperate to avoid its points.

 

[pknopp]

Remove the profit.

Have you ever given any thought to what profit is, what role it plays in an economy? You dismissed the idea that profit is payment for services rendered, but it is that, and more. It's a deliberate allocation of society's resources. It's people deliberately giving their money to the those who can best provide them with their wants and needs. That's a good thing. We want the people who are good at managing capital and labor to have more capital and labor to manage. The people who are best to have the most. Because they've proven they'll do things we like with that power. And if they don't, we'll stop giving them our money.

When we "eliminate profit" we break that feedback loop. We're essentially saying to consumers, "You're doing it wrong", that the priorities and values expressed by society via the market aren't valid and only government overseers can make the call. That, to me, is about as undemocratic as it gets. You'll may find consolation in the notion that you get to vote for the overseers every few years, but that's a sad replacement for the real time feedback of a free market - where "voters" can express themselves every day.

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

Non profits don't work?

You have a list of drugs that a non-profit has run from discovery thru trials thru FDA approval to release?
The top 5 should be plenty.

We unfortunately do not work that way. Its the way I am arguing for.

Insulin was meant as a non profit until for profit companies got hold of it.

You are partly correct. As an insulin dependent diabetic, I experience it.

The price of insulin kept getting higher and higher, mostly during the Bush years. I contacted the company to ask why, and got no real satisfactory answer. I did research on the internet, again, a dead end.

So when I went to my grocery store, just for the hell of it I asked about what they charge for insulin? They gave me a price of 40 bucks a vial. I use four a month and pay cash. But the pharmacist told me about Walmart generic insulin. Walmart insulin? Not in your life! You have to be nuts!!!

As time progressed, insulin continued to get more expensive. Out of desperation, I decided to take that grocery stores pharmacists advice. I went to Walmart.

When I got there, I only ordered one vial because I thought I'd have to contact my physician first. When she handed it to me, it was only $25.00. When I got home and opened it up, I realized it was not Walmart insulin at all. It was the same insulin from the same company I always purchased it from. The only difference was a tiny ® on the package, which stood for the name Reliance, the generic Walmart name.

The company that makes the insulin made a dirty deal with Walmart. They gave them a huge discounted rate on insulin, and dramatically increased it on every other pharmacy. I think, that should be illegal.

Why? You support profit. Obviously they are profiting. That is good right? This is the free market right?

 

[pknopp]

Non profits don't work? People who work at non profits dont' get paid? How about if you want a profit you forgo ALL government money?

I'll take that as a "no".

You pretend that things only work if there is a profit.

No, that was just your silly brain building a strawman.

As I said though, you want a profit you forgo all taxpayer money. Why is that not fair? Why should the taxpayers fund the development for others to get the profit?

I totally agree with this diversion.

But getting back to this "eliminate profit" thing. It really just suggests you have no idea what role profit plays. Do you? Do you think it's just "money for nothing"?

I saw really interesting speaker in the nineties. He was a former economist and planner for the Soviet Union. He talked at length about the frustrating difficulties of trying to efficiently allocate resources and labor in a command economy. He said that they tried to decentralize the network of decision makers, tried to build incentive structures into their pay, etc... but nothing produced anything like the efficiency and responsiveness of a market of consumers making their own decisions about what they valued. Leaving it up to bureaucrats and state agencies replaced consumer spending with political influence as the principle driver of major economic decisions.

So non profits do not work? You (and others) continue to avoid this question.

You're not really going to play this kind of game, are you? I mean is that all you got? I never said non-profits don't work. They work fine. Has absolutely nothing to do with my post and why you're desperate to avoid its points.

You are arguing that profit is an important aspect of delivering health care. I am arguing it is not. I am not arguing to eliminate profit everywhere. I am arguing that when people can not access health care because shareholders are not happy with their returns, something is wrong.

 

[dblack]

You are arguing that profit is an important aspect of delivery health care. I am arguing it is not. I am not arguing to eliminate profit everywhere. I am arguing that when people can not access health care because shareholders are not happy with their returns, something is wrong.

You say "eliminate profit" as though you don't need to replace it with anything. And I'm trying to figure out if you understand the role that profit plays. How do you plan to replace that role with government? Do you understand that you will need to replace it with something?

 

[pknopp]

You are arguing that profit is an important aspect of delivery health care. I am arguing it is not. I am not arguing to eliminate profit everywhere. I am arguing that when people can not access health care because shareholders are not happy with their returns, something is wrong.

You say "eliminate profit" as though you don't need to replace it with anything. And I'm trying to figure out if you understand the role that profit plays. How do you plan to replace that role with government?

I am not looking to replace profit in healthcare. I'm looking to ending it.