Bert Blyleven: Hall of Famer!

[Synthaholic]

Why is Bert going in before Jim Kaat? Hmmmmm......

 

[Article 15]

And if you are arguing that Sandberg was better defensively than Alomar I am afraid I cannot take that argument seriously.

As we are both baseball geeks, we are both aware that statistics do not tell the whole story, even though Ryno has a better lifetime fielding percentage.

While Alomar played 4 full seasons in the N.L. (out of 17 total), and also for Toronto, he generally played more games on natural grass. Yes, Sandberg played half his games on Wrigley's grass, but playing his entire career in the N.L., he dealt with more artificial surfaces of varying speeds.

Taking that into consideration, look at some of those stats.

Range factor - Career
Ryno: 32nd
Alomar: 91st

Fielding % - Career
Ryno: 8th
Alomar: 42nd

Errors - Career
Ryno: 120 (? - they don't have this for Sandberg, for some reason)
Alomar: 181 (79th)

Like I said, stats aren't everything, but clearly Alomar is not hands-down a better defensive player than Ryno. I have an excellent reference book out in the garage, and may look into it more tomorrow.

Regardless of defensive stats, Ryno was the superior major leaguer. His legendary consistency, even temperament (he never spit in an umpire's face, for example), leadership, batting, power, arm, DP prowess, and overall in-the-game knowledge ranks him higher than almost any other second baseman in history. Only Morgan is comparable.

Oh, and Morgan's numbers for those three categories I listed?

Range: 34th,
Fielding %: 78th,
Errors: 50th (244!!!)

ALL worse than Ryno!

You really can't say only Morgan is comparable when Alomar has Sandberg beat in every major stat but one. Everything you state about Sandberg's baseball prowess, Alomar is right there or better. Yeah, he spit in an ump's face and paid the price of a one year wait to get into the hall of fame but Sandberg was also a known jerk to the media and fans so he's no saint either. Additionally, Alomar was a core player on two World Title teams something Sandberg, despite his "leadership" (ironic that the Cubs didn't offer them the manager's job) never came close to, though admittedly in his very limited playoff experience Ryne was outstanding.

As to fielding ... yes, Sandberg was great. During his time he was my favorite non-Red Sox player. That said, Alomar was on a different level fielding than he was. You and I both know that defensive stats are shady at best and far from a perfect science. I'll take the eyeball test in this case as I saw both play quite a lot; Alomar was just better.

So yeah ... he is Sandberg and arguably more. Like I said easily one of the greatest of all time.

 

[Article 15]

Why is Bert going in before Jim Kaat? Hmmmmm......

Check out their peripheral stats. Bert was better.

 

[Synthaholic]

So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?

 

[Article 15]

So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?

Not at all.

Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.

 

[Article 15]

Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.

 

[elvis]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

 

[Synthaholic]

So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?

Not at all.

Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.

You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.

Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.

Which fielding stats show Alomar to be superior?

 

[Article 15]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

Really?

I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.

 

[Article 15]

So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?

Not at all.

Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.

You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.

Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.

Which fielding stats show Alomar to be superior?

We are talking about fielding stats now?

I told you earlier that fielding stats are shady at best and far from a perfect science.

 

[elvis]

So....for second basemen you are only concerned with major stats, and with pitchers, the peripheral stats are more important?

Not at all.

Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.

You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.

Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.

which is irrelevant to the conversation. I suppose you want Cobb banned from the hall, too.

 

[Synthaholic]

Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.

I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.

 

[elvis]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

Really?

I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.

alomar was really good. just tough to say he was better than Ryno on the diamond.

 

[Article 15]

Not at all.

Check the peripherals of Alomar v Sandberg ... Alomar beats him there too.

You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.

Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.

which is irrelevant to the conversation. I suppose you want Cobb banned from the hall, too.

Agreed.

And Pete Rose NEEDS to be in.

 

[Article 15]

Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.

I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.

Agreed as well.

I would put Murphy in before The Hawk or The Crime Dog.

 

[elvis]

You haven't brought any of these stats to the table. I've showed 3 important categories where Alomar falls short. Are you arguing that errors aren't important? And the huge disparity in range is indicative.

Btw - I do not ever remember Ryno being a jerk with fans or media.

which is irrelevant to the conversation. I suppose you want Cobb banned from the hall, too.

Agreed.

And Pete Rose NEEDS to be in.

they say Pete's banned for life... does that mean they'll let him in the hall when he dies?

 

[elvis]

Kaat and Blyleven have similar stats until you look at things like K/9 and K/BB ... Blyleven is well ahead of Kaat. IMO, neither should be in.

I agree that neither should be in, although they were both great pitchers in their era. The HOF is being watered down. As much as I believe Andre Dawson to be a class act, his induction is also questionable. If Andre is there, then so should Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy.

Agreed as well.

I would put Murphy in before The Hawk or The Crime Dog.

didn't crime dog hit 400 HR?

I thought that was a free ticket to the hall..

 

[Synthaholic]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

Really?

I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.

I've never seen that. You're not confusing him with shortstop Omar Vizquel, are you?

 

[Article 15]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

Really?

I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.

alomar was really good. just tough to say he was better than Ryno on the diamond.

Interesting.

I'm not about to go to the tape or anything ... I suppose we are going to just have to disagree about the fielding.

 

[Article 15]

if Alomar hadn't spit on the umpire, there'd be no debate about him being in the HOF.


but I've never seen a better defensive second baseman than sandberg.

Really?

I watched 'em both ... Alomar was other worldly.

I've never seen that. You're not confusing him with shortstop Omar Vizquel, are you?

lol ... nope.