Black Skin Privilege

[Saigon]

AgainSheila -

I work in Africa, and actually just last year researched and wrote a major piece on slavery. I somehow suspect I might be in a better position to discuss this than you are.

Meathead -

It's always worth reading posts before responding to them. I have specifically said at least twice that I do not think anyone need feel guilty.

 

[Saigon]

Historical slavery was ultimately a good thing and very necessary for human progression.

This is actually a comment that I think all of us, as members of this board, might feel in some way responsible for.

The fact that we see comments like this and don't comment on them is extraordinary. The silence becomes a kind of tacit consent.

Next time any white person on this board asks why black people hate them so much - this post might be a good place to start.

 

[Zoom-boing]

]Uh, yeah, American people recognize that both slavery and KKK/racism happened......Sooooo, why should that recognition involve some humility?

Because if I am a German person talking to a Jewish person, I think it is befitting that I show them a little respect....given my granddad might have slaughtered their granddad.

If you are a German person talking to a Jewish person it is befitting that you show them respect because they are a human being. That goes for people of all color, race, ethnicity, etc. Period.

 

[The Professor]

Historical slavery was ultimately a good thing and very necessary for human progression.

Um......I'm speechless.

I hope everyone on this board takes very, very careful note of what you just said.

While I don't agree, then I'm not squirming in my seat either. I do understand your consternation in being unable to make others feel guilty. It's not necessarily that you're not good at it, but we're use to race pimps like yourself and have become somewhat immure.

I'm not squirming either.

Perhaps I have a perverted definition of guilt because although I do harbor traces of guilt for what I have done, even long ago, I cannot feel the slightest guilt for what anyone else has done.

 

[Saigon]

]Uh, yeah, American people recognize that both slavery and KKK/racism happened......Sooooo, why should that recognition involve some humility?

Because if I am a German person talking to a Jewish person, I think it is befitting that I show them a little respect....given my granddad might have slaughtered their granddad.

If you are a German person talking to a Jewish person it is befitting that you show them respect because they are a human being. That goes for people of all color, race, ethnicity, etc. Period.

Yes, definitely. I am not suggesting German people need to treat Jewish people differently - it's just something I'd think they might keep in their back on their mind. A little sensitivity, perhaps...just as most of us would talking to anyone where sensitive topics might crop up.

 

[Unkotare]

AgainSheila -

I work in Africa, and actually just last year researched and wrote a major piece on slavery. I somehow suspect I might be in a better position to discuss this than you are.

Yeah, and I left "a major piece" in the toilet this morning. Probably of the same quality and significance (and requiring fewer corrections).

Some pretentious douche from Finland spends a little time in Africa and suddenly he's an expert on race relations in the US? Yeah, sure.

 

[Againsheila]

AgainSheila -

I work in Africa, and actually just last year researched and wrote a major piece on slavery. I somehow suspect I might be in a better position to discuss this than you are.

Meathead -

It's always worth reading posts before responding to them. I have specifically said at least twice that I do not think anyone need feel guilty.

I'm thinking you didn't do enough research:

The Anti-Slavery Group reports that “the world’s worst human rights violations” are suffered by thousands of blacks in the Sudan and Mauritania. The punishments given to “uppity” slaves include “tortures of medieval proportions, all too graphic to describe,” it says.

Somehow I don't consider "thousands" to be "a few"

 

[Saigon]

Againsheila -

I'm not sure how much time you have spent in Mauritania and Sudan, but if it is even a brief amount of time, I am sure you aware of the appalling conditions under which almost all workers suffer.

Likewise, domestic workers in Kuwait, Singapore, Hong Hong and Dubai work in terrible conditions, and as recently as this week were denied legal rights in Hong Kong. However, describing these conditions as slavery isn't necessarily helpful - anymore so than people decribing the Israeli treatment of Palestinians are 'apartheid'. The difference between the Atlantic Slave Trade and modern slavery is considerable, and the differences are important.

In an ideal world we could describe conditions as being appalling and unacceptable without tethering them to other emotionally charged events in history.

 

[Againsheila]

Againsheila -

I'm not sure how much time you have spent in Mauritania and Sudan, but if it is even a brief amount of time, I am sure you aware of the appalling conditions under which almost all workers suffer.

Likewise, domestic workers in Kuwait, Singapore, Hong Hong and Dubai work in terrible conditions, and as recently as this week were denied legal rights in Hong Kong. However, describing these conditions as slavery isn't necessarily helpful - anymore so than people decribing the Israeli treatment of Palestinians are 'apartheid'. The difference between the Atlantic Slave Trade and modern slavery is considerable, and the differences are important.

In an ideal world we could describe conditions as being appalling and unacceptable without tethering them to other emotionally charged events in history.

So you think female children who are raped and people who have their fingers cut off because they didn't do their jobs properly are employees??????

 

[Saigon]

AgainSheila -

So you think female children who are raped and people who have their fingers cut off because they didn't do their jobs properly are employees??????

Um....what are you talking about?

 

[Saigon]

It is interesting that your source seems to be an opinion piece from a local American newspaper, which begins:

"The absurdity of Prof. Ogletree’s plan is explained by Prof. Walter Williams, also a black man, in one of his recent columns:"

While it is possible some of the basic issue in the article are valid, I suspect it might be worth using more reliable sources.


I am sure everyone can agree that the kind of events you refer to here (whether they are true or not) are appalling. But so what? Does this justify the Atlantic Slave Trade?

 

[Meathead]

In an ideal world we could describe conditions as being appalling and unacceptable without tethering them to other emotionally charged events in history.

I don't know why I bother, but in an ideal world there would be no conditions to be described as appalling and unacceptable.

Now it seems to me you were saying that American children should be (or were) squirming in their seats because some blacks were lynched in the days of their great-great grandparents. If that isn't tethering your expectations of guilt to "emotionally-charged" historical events, then I don't know what is.

I don't think you're a stupid person, but you lack perspective and are exceedingly self-righteous. I've lived in Europe most of my life and have come across many like yourself. They are without failure annoying, as are you.

 

[Saigon]

Meathead -

This thread is not about me, it's about slavery.

in an ideal world there would be no conditions to be described as appalling and unacceptable.

I totally agree - although I think we can also be realistic and admit that probably crimes will always occur - and that people will always ignore those crimes when they can.

it seems to me you were saying that American children should be (or were) squirming in their seats because some blacks were lynched in the days of their great-great grandparents.

I don't think any of us like to learn about our countries failures, or moments of shame. All countries have them. I think we should accept those failures face on.

I've lived in Europe most of my life

Actually, I listed around 10 countries - 8 of which are in Europe. As suggested earlier - read the thread before you respond.

 

[Saigon]

Unko -

One does not need to be an expert on anything to understand that slavery is not, as Katz claims, a good thing.

I have the balls to call him on it - you do not.

 

[Decus]

Yidnar -

As I explained earlier, at a personal level, none of us are responsible for actions others carry out.

But at the level of a country or people, then we are responsible for acts which were conducted in the name of our people or country.

For instance, Hitler murdered Jews in the name of Germany, so I believe German people have a reasponsibility for that in perpetuity.

so the Egyptians today are responsible for the enslavement of Jews ??

Great question. Which begs a follow-up: what is the 'statute of limitations' on guilt by association?

 

[Meathead]

Meathead -

This thread is not about me, it's about slavery.

in an ideal world there would be no conditions to be described as appalling and unacceptable.

I totally agree - although I think we can also be realistic and admit that probably crimes will always occur - and that people will always ignore those crimes when they can.

it seems to me you were saying that American children should be (or were) squirming in their seats because some blacks were lynched in the days of their great-great grandparents.

I don't think any of us like to learn about our countries failures, or moments of shame. All countries have them. I think we should accept those failures face on.

I've lived in Europe most of my life

Actually, I listed around 10 countries - 8 of which are in Europe. As suggested earlier - read the thread before you respond.

I don't care what this thread is about. I find your expectations of guilt unreasonable and your championing of it reprehensible. The history of slavery is and has been taught in US schools certainly as long as I can remember, as it should be. The US has many successes and failure as have all countries. Freeing the slaves was a success and along with many other historical events gives Americans reason to be proud. There are a great many still who feel compelled to apologize for our failures.

Let me give you an analogy. Have you ever played volleyball? I played for a very long time and still do in the summer. Matches last a long time and among the most annoying players are the ones who feel they need to apologize every time they misplay the ball. Only the most pretentious pricks would demand that others apologize. In your world we would still be apologizing and feeling guilty for the possible extinction of Homo Sapien Neanderthal. You get on with shit.

 

[theHawk]

Meathead -

Responsibility is not the same as guilt.

The people of Holland, Portugal, Sweden etc should all be aware of what their forefathers did, and take responsibility at a societal level for that (in the sense of understanding it and not denying it). That does not mean they need feel guilt or any kind of personal responsibility.

very few whites owned slaves, fewer were involved in the trade

We may have a different understanding the term "few".

Some 600 shipments of slaves sailed to what is now the US, I believe. Consider how many people were involved as crews, bankers, ship owners and ship builders, as legislators who backed the trade and the many people who bought slaves - including some founding fathers.

Why do you have this assumption that Americans are unaware of slavery? I mean really? Are you kidding?

 

[Decus]

Yidnar -

As I explained earlier, at a personal level, none of us are responsible for actions others carry out.

But at the level of a country or people, then we are responsible for acts which were conducted in the name of our people or country.

For instance, Hitler murdered Jews in the name of Germany, so I believe German people have a reasponsibility for that in perpetuity.

so the Egyptians today are responsible for the enslavement of Jews ??

Great question. Which begs a follow-up: what is the 'statute of limitations' on guilt by association?

Maybe the guy with the "balls" would like to answer this question: What is the 'statute of limitations' for the crime of guilt by association?

 

[Unkotare]

Unko -

One does not need to be an expert on anything to understand that slavery is not, as Katz claims, a good thing.

Finally something for which you meet the qualifications!

 

[yidnar]

slavery was a horrible practice most peoples throughout history fell victim to ,but how can there ever be peace when one group of people hold another group of people responsible for acts committed before either were ever born ?? resentment from one group breeds resentment from the other group . America fought a brutal bloody war to put an end to slavery !! i did not participate in slavery nor did i fight in the war to end slavery !! and the fact that today i believe slavery is an abomination absolves me of any guilt !! if you want to hold someone today guilty for things that happened in the past hold the people that still believe in,defend, and practice said atrocities today . what i mean is if i believe in carrying on the practicing of something my ancestors practice good or bad i am directly linked to the past traditions practiced ...so the people that still believe in and practice slavery today have a closer link to slave owners in the past than i do ...ie...certain muslim groups have a connection to slavery in Americas past because they still practice it today no matter what part of the world they come from.