Boy Scouts win right to remain in building they built

[George Costanza]

George, as a lawyer, I don't know how you can say such things. And you know I repsect you, but come on. I have to be a bigot myself if I support their fight?

It depends upon the basis for your support of their position.

 

[bodecea]

Are we removing the atheist aspect also?

Sure. It's irrelevant.

BTW, the city has a LAW that they cannot discriminate due to sexual orientation or religious belief in their property...it is their property...just like you would have to follow the rules of your landlord, the BSA (if they want to lease city land) have to follow city laws. They can always buy their own land and do what they will.

Obviously it was determined that this law did not apply in this case.

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

 

[RadiomanATL]

Are we removing the atheist aspect also?

Sure. It's irrelevant.

BTW, the city has a LAW that they cannot discriminate due to sexual orientation or religious belief in their property...it is their property...just like you would have to follow the rules of your landlord, the BSA (if they want to lease city land) have to follow city laws. They can always buy their own land and do what they will.

Obviously it was determined that this law did not apply in this case.

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

Maybe, maybe not. Who knows what will happen.

 

[ConHog]

Are we removing the atheist aspect also?

Sure. It's irrelevant.

BTW, the city has a LAW that they cannot discriminate due to sexual orientation or religious belief in their property...it is their property...just like you would have to follow the rules of your landlord, the BSA (if they want to lease city land) have to follow city laws. They can always buy their own land and do what they will.

Obviously it was determined that this law did not apply in this case.

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

In the 1950's, you could be an open racist in many areas of the country, and no one would say boo to you - in fact, you would probably be applauded. In the decades that followed, our country became educated to a degree on the issues of racism and bigotry. The Civil Rights Act played a large part in that education.

As a consequence of this evolution of thought, it became socially unacceptable to be an open racist. And so, people began to back off on expressions of open racism uttered to others. Did that mean that racism and bigotry no longer existed? Of course not - it just went underground.

And so, overt racism came to be replaced with covert racism. Now, instead of openly stating racist beliefs, the covert racist does things behind the scenes that will accomplish his goals. He pushes for policies that will make life more difficult for the objects of his hatred. He elects officials he knows share his views. He votes for laws that he knows are designed to hinder the progress of those he despises.

No one is going to stand up today and say: "I am a racist. I am a bigot." But they are still here.

If you support the right of the Scouts to be bigotted, the next question to ask is why? Why do you support that right? If you can honestly say you are strongly opposed to such a policy, but nonetheless recognize their right to do it under our existing laws; if you can honestly say you think they are a bunch of bigotted bastards and you have zero respect for them - then I would say good on ya, mate!

On the other hand, if you are saying that you hate gays yourself and think they have no business associating with normal people in an organization such as the Scouts, and THAT is why you are in line with what they are doing, then I would say that you truly are a bigot.

This is beginning to sound like that tired, old conservative wheeze that "no one has the right not to be offended" - God, what a rationalization for all kinds of rude, obnoxious behavior.

So - what's it gonna be, QW?

I guess I fall somewhere in between.

I think they are bigoted, but I do not disrespect them because of their stance. It would be dishonest of me to do so, because I want to be free to keep people who radically disagree with my views as far away form me as possible. I do not want the KKK to be able to force me to spend my free time enjoying my shared fun to be able to force their presence on me, so I defend the right of all people, including the KKK, to discriminate in any way they want to, as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.

I hate to say it, but the truth is no one has the right to not be offended. The corollary of this is that offensive people do not have the right not to be ridiculed. Exercise your right to ridicule offensive people gearge, if nothing else it will make you feel better.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Spoken like a true hater. Where did you learn your values? Juvie?

I did not say they were pedophiles (although there have been a few) Girl Scouts arent permitted to camp with heterosexual males. Boy Scouts should not camp with homosexual men. It's inappropriate.

A person who supports organizations that promote good citizenship in young people is called a teacher, a parent, and a human being, not a "dumbass redneck red herring whore" .

By that logic gay men should be in the Girl Scouts. Do you support that?

The BSA does not promote good citizenship by discriminating based on sexual orientation. It's inculcating bigotry into young minds. You're a dumbass redneck red herring whore because you tried to deflect by mentioning the NAACP. Then you make yourself look even more foolish by trying to claim the goal is to destroy the BSA. I make childish name calling posts but at least I'm not a hypocritical dishonest bigot.

The Girl Scouts do not discriminate against gays and atheists.

They do discriminate against boys though. I am sure you have no problem with that.

 

[Madeline]

Are you sure you're not blonde? The Boy Scouts is one of the best organizations for youth in the world. Boys who have been boyscout have better grades in school, slimmer chances of committing crimes, and many other things I've forgotten since I was a cubscout leader.

All that is likely true, Againshelia. But it doesn't change the fact that the values they teach include intolerance based upon ignorance. For many parents, including me, that would be a deal breaker.

What, because they have to say they believe in God? What's wrong with that? You don't believe in God, don't join. The gay thing is a red herring. I never ran into the situation in the 3 years I was a leader. We never talked about it, never referred to it. We never went around asking the boys "Do you like boys or girls?" and then kicking them out if they gave the wrong answer. As for the leaders, we were required to have TWO at every meeting to make sure there was no inappropriate behavior by any of the leaders. We taught them how to care for the elderly, making gifts and doing Christmas Carols at the local nursing home. We taught them how to care for the poor, collecting food for the food bank door to door. We taught them how to make little racing cars that they could race. We taught them archery. We taught them to respect the flag, and the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance. We taught them how to use a pocket knife, and the rules that went along with having a pocket knife. Yeah, it's a horrible organization. Good thing you wouldn't let your kids join.

You may criticisize my parenting if you like, Againshelia. It was extremely important to me that my kid grow up to be an adult free of bigotry. If it was less important to you, and you valued other things more, I'm good with that.

 

[ConHog]

By that logic gay men should be in the Girl Scouts. Do you support that?

The BSA does not promote good citizenship by discriminating based on sexual orientation. It's inculcating bigotry into young minds. You're a dumbass redneck red herring whore because you tried to deflect by mentioning the NAACP. Then you make yourself look even more foolish by trying to claim the goal is to destroy the BSA. I make childish name calling posts but at least I'm not a hypocritical dishonest bigot.

The Girl Scouts do not discriminate against gays and atheists.

They do discriminate against boys though. I am sure you have no problem with that.

That's different.

Here, how about this.

The black coaches association. Closed to all but black coaches, yet you know where virtually everything they do happens? On public college grounds. Explain that you goobers who say the Boy Scouts don't have the right to do this b/c they are on public land.

 

[Madeline]

Do you believe that the government has the right to void binding agreements because the members of a organization wishes to exercise their rights to freedom of association?

The government is asking that the BSA pay the going rate for PRIVATE organizations to lease city property. The BSA doesn't want to do that, so they sued.

I do not know the real estate law of Pennsylvannia, nor the underlying facts of this case, but I gather at its inception, the lease provided for a term of infinity in exchange for the payment of $1 a year. I'd be inclined to call that an irrevocable "gift", meaning all rights to that property were vested in the Boy Scouts.

There are various basises on which the Boy Scouts may have won this case. Does not have to have been a ringing endorsement for homophobia.

 

[ConHog]

All that is likely true, Againshelia. But it doesn't change the fact that the values they teach include intolerance based upon ignorance. For many parents, including me, that would be a deal breaker.

What, because they have to say they believe in God? What's wrong with that? You don't believe in God, don't join. The gay thing is a red herring. I never ran into the situation in the 3 years I was a leader. We never talked about it, never referred to it. We never went around asking the boys "Do you like boys or girls?" and then kicking them out if they gave the wrong answer. As for the leaders, we were required to have TWO at every meeting to make sure there was no inappropriate behavior by any of the leaders. We taught them how to care for the elderly, making gifts and doing Christmas Carols at the local nursing home. We taught them how to care for the poor, collecting food for the food bank door to door. We taught them how to make little racing cars that they could race. We taught them archery. We taught them to respect the flag, and the meaning of the Pledge of Allegiance. We taught them how to use a pocket knife, and the rules that went along with having a pocket knife. Yeah, it's a horrible organization. Good thing you wouldn't let your kids join.

You may criticisize my parenting if you like, Againshelia. It was extremely important to me that my kid grow up to be an adult free of bigotry. If it was less important to you, and you valued other things more, I'm good with that.

Absolutely your right, but you do NOT have a right to enroll your child in the Boy Scouts. End of story.

 

[CurveLight]

Sure. It's irrelevant.



Obviously it was determined that this law did not apply in this case.

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

Still trying to play this dead horse card? The Rights of both groups are in consideration so why the blatant dishonesty?

 

[ConHog]

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

Still trying to play this dead horse card? The Rights of both groups are in consideration so why the blatant dishonesty?

Really? Tell me what right of the BSA's you are considering , because I can tell you unequivocally that you have NO right to be in the Boy Scouts. NONE and therefor you rights aren't affected one whit.

So tell me again, who's being dishonest?

 

[CurveLight]

Sure. It's irrelevant.



Obviously it was determined that this law did not apply in this case.

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

They do not own the property the building sits on and that is the problem. If an organization wants the right to discriminate it should be prepared to pay for the rights they demand instead of asking all taxpayers to subsidize their bigotry. Fucking hypocrites.

It's not discrimination, it's limiting membership of a private organization and any private group has the right to do it.

Absolutely...but private organizations don't get sweetheart deals with municipalities either. The BSA went to all the trouble to get themselves officially declared a PRIVATE organization...but they cry, moan, groan and sue when they find out that they don't get any special deals with government property anymore. BOO HOO.

Do you believe that the government has the right to void binding agreements because the members of a organization wishes to exercise their rights to freedom of association?

The government is asking that the BSA pay the going rate for PRIVATE organizations to lease city property. The BSA doesn't want to do that, so they sued.

if you rent a house from me for $1 a month in perpetuity, I won't have a case if in 80 years I come and say "I don't like what they are doing so I want to raise the rate."

A lease is a contract.

Many slaveowners owned slaves indefinitely so by your argument owning slaves should not have stopped after doing so was illegal because they had indefinite contracts of ownership.

Let's see how you try to dance away from that one.

 

[del]

Holy shit you keep proving to be one dumb ****. The City's Lease amount is based on the rules of a Non-Profit organization. By excludling gays the BSA is violating the terms of the Lease thus they should pay full rent and stop wanting the benefits of a Private organization without paying for it. Can you not comprehend such a simple point you dumbfucking bitch?

I call Shenanigans. Please provide evidence that the city had such rules governing Non-Profits in 1928.

His argument is that the Boy Scouts are violating the rules set forth by the state and feds for a non-profit organization. That if an organization discriminates, they lose their non-profit status.

He's wrong, of course. Forget the homosexual aspect. If a organization discriminates, do they lose their non-profit status? No. Hint: BOY scouts. GIRL scouts.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RadiomanATL again.

 

[ConHog]

Look for someone to sue to either get the same deal, or someone who pays taxes in that city to sue over the discriminatory "tenants."

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

The government is asking that the BSA pay the going rate for PRIVATE organizations to lease city property. The BSA doesn't want to do that, so they sued.

if you rent a house from me for $1 a month in perpetuity, I won't have a case if in 80 years I come and say "I don't like what they are doing so I want to raise the rate."

A lease is a contract.

Many slaveowners owned slaves indefinitely so by your argument owning slaves should not have stopped after doing so was illegal because they had indefinite contracts of ownership.

Let's see how you try to dance away from that one.

You show me a slave that signed a contract to be a slave and I'll show you one dumb sumbitch.


I guess that makes me Fred Astaire

 

[CurveLight]

What? You can't sue to force someone to rent you something at a specific rate. NO ONE forced the city mayor to agree to this lease. That lawsuit would go NOWHERE

Why are you only concerned about the gay rights, what about the BSA's rights?

Still trying to play this dead horse card? The Rights of both groups are in consideration so why the blatant dishonesty?

Really? Tell me what right of the BSA's you are considering , because I can tell you unequivocally that you have NO right to be in the Boy Scouts. NONE and therefor you rights aren't affected one whit.

So tell me again, who's being dishonest?

You and your bigot band cheering the bigotry. The BSA rights are being considered because nobody is saying they should have to allow gays no matter what. The problem is they want taxpayers, who include gays, to subsidize their operations. This isn't that difficult to understand. You guys see the hypocrisy but don't give a shit.

 

[RadiomanATL]

I call Shenanigans. Please provide evidence that the city had such rules governing Non-Profits in 1928.

His argument is that the Boy Scouts are violating the rules set forth by the state and feds for a non-profit organization. That if an organization discriminates, they lose their non-profit status.

He's wrong, of course. Forget the homosexual aspect. If a organization discriminates, do they lose their non-profit status? No. Hint: BOY scouts. GIRL scouts.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RadiomanATL again.

Thanks, the thought is what counts.

 

[CurveLight]

It's not "bashing" to call out bigotry where bigotry exists. The BSA has enable pedophiles and like the Catholic Church, is guilty of keeping private files on pedophiles within the BSA. The majority of pedophiles who hurt young boys are heterosexual men. So if the BSA was so "concerned" about pedophilia why hasn't it been honest in profiling them? Why have they kept secret files on them instead of immediately alerting local authorities?

Wherever you find bigotry, dishonesty is in the shadow.

Would it be bashing to point out your bias toward heterosexual men here?

Pedophiles are never heterosexual men, or homosexual men, they are pedophiles. Pedophiles only get sexual gratification out of children, not adult women, or adult men. They do sometimes use adults who look childlike as an outlet for their fantasies, but they are never hetero, or homo, sexual.

Biased against my own sexual orientation? Lol. I'm pointing out statistically the majority of convicted pedophiles are self professed heterosexuals.

 

[ConHog]

Still trying to play this dead horse card? The Rights of both groups are in consideration so why the blatant dishonesty?

Really? Tell me what right of the BSA's you are considering , because I can tell you unequivocally that you have NO right to be in the Boy Scouts. NONE and therefor you rights aren't affected one whit.

So tell me again, who's being dishonest?

You and your bigot band cheering the bigotry. The BSA rights are being considered because nobody is saying they should have to allow gays no matter what. The problem is they want taxpayers, who include gays, to subsidize their operations. This isn't that difficult to understand. You guys see the hypocrisy but don't give a shit.

typical liberal . get your ass spanked so you come with name callling.

Tell me how the tax payers are subsidizing anything? They are not. They are paying exactly what the tax payers representative asked for rent.The BSA have a valid lease. You can't toss someone out of a lease just b/c you don't like what they are doing.

 

[ConHog]

It's not "bashing" to call out bigotry where bigotry exists. The BSA has enable pedophiles and like the Catholic Church, is guilty of keeping private files on pedophiles within the BSA. The majority of pedophiles who hurt young boys are heterosexual men. So if the BSA was so "concerned" about pedophilia why hasn't it been honest in profiling them? Why have they kept secret files on them instead of immediately alerting local authorities?

Wherever you find bigotry, dishonesty is in the shadow.

Would it be bashing to point out your bias toward heterosexual men here?

Pedophiles are never heterosexual men, or homosexual men, they are pedophiles. Pedophiles only get sexual gratification out of children, not adult women, or adult men. They do sometimes use adults who look childlike as an outlet for their fantasies, but they are never hetero, or homo, sexual.

Biased against my own sexual orientation? Lol. I'm pointing out statistically the majority of convicted pedophiles are self professed heterosexuals.

That has exactly NOTHING to do with this thread, but I would love to see the proof.