BREAKING: Rep. Steve Stockman: Sgt. At Arms to Arrest Lois Lerner

[Mathbud1]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

 

[NoTeaPartyPleez]

Is she arrested yet?

Nope.

And whoever resurrected this bullshit thread of GumSlinger's, thank you.

Thank you for reminding us that she's just looking for the next shiny object strategically placed for her and the other hacks in the junkyard of Republican politics.

 

[Care4all]

The amount of ignorance and fallacy coming from the left in this thread is nothing short of spectacular. Really, it is just astounding.

First - "Have they arrested her yet?" - Strawman
The press release posted in the OP does not anywhere say that Ms. Lerner would be arrested anytime soon. The press release stated nothing but that Rep. Stockman from Texas had submitted a resolution to have her arrested with supporting precidents showing that the House has the authority to arrest individuals in certain circumstances. The resolution has not been voted on yet. Ms. Lerner would not be arrested until it had been voted on and passed. The tacit assertion made by the statement, "Have they arrested her yet?" is that the press release in the OP stated that she would be arrested soon. Since that is not the case, "Have they arrested her yet?" addresses nothing but a Strawman.
https://beta.congress.gov/bill/113t...?q={"search":["Lois+Lerner+Sergeant+arrest"]}

Second - "Allen West? Seriously?" - Ad Hominem
Instead of addressing the content of the OP, a large number of lefters are choosing instead to attack what they percieve to be the source of the press release in the OP. This is wrong for two reasons. First, Allen West did not originate the press release. The press release was made by Rep. Stockman's people on his House.gov page. Allen West's site merely reposted it. Next, even if Allen West were the ultimate source of the press release, attacking the press release with nothing but, "Allen West? Seriously?" is nothing but ad hominem.
Stockman files motion ordering the arrest of Lois Lerner | Congressman Steve Stockman

What I don't get is why they care enough to post so much fallacy or ignorance here? All the OP really merits is a, "Hmmm. I wonder if the House will actually pass that resolution." So, lefters, what is it about this thread that got you riled?

But it is a strawman. The strawman is the idea that she could have been arrested yet. Since the resolution hasn't even been voted on, that is not a possibility.



If you support the idea that Ms. Lerner should be arrested, you would be understandably happy at anything that looks like a step in that direction. The resolution was intended to at least look like a step in that direction. Whether it actually was a step in that direction is debatable.

read the title of this thread: ''...Sgt. At Arms TO ARREST Lois Lerner''

Lerner did not testify and took the 5th because her lawyer advised her to because this congress critter dog and pony show is just that, a dog and pony show not interested in finding out facts....it's a witch hunt, period...anyone not licking the right wing's rear end can see this...anyone sane can see this, especially if they have watched these hearings held by these congress critters....

Lerner was also called to testify with the DOJ Investigation around the same time, and she DID NOT TAKE the fifth with them, she did go through the interrogation with them....

It was the Republicans conducting these non professional, pontificating dog and pony show of theirs that kept her from testifying, they have NO ONE TO BLAME BUT THEMSELVES.

and this measure will NEVER, EVER, PASS CONGRESS if it ever was brought up for a vote....it's just another bout of partisan posturing that once again will amount to nothing...

If it was intended for nothing but show, there is still a question of why it was done. Assuming it was nothing but an attention grab is foolish. Maybe it was, but assuming people you disagree with are so shallowly motivated is really just a path to underestimating them.

come onnnnn, there is no other way to look at it...it isn't feasible, it hasn't even made it through committee and it won't make it through a full house vote if by miracle it ever made it there....

I CALL that showmanship and political posturing, and nothing less.

and I am paying for these assholes to do this, with my tax dollars? and you all applaud it?

that, I will never understand....

Just like I am paying with my tax dollars for "assholes" I disagree with to present motions I think are a waste of time too. Or worse to actually pass laws I think are detrimental to society. Or more pointedly, paying taxes so "assholes" in the IRS can target groups they disagree with.

I happen to WANT to find out the TRUTH, without the dog and pony show partisanship. They have behaved with poor judgement, these congress critters conducting the hearings...I read recently that we are nearing 30 or 40 of them now....they have made all kinds of criminal accusations of people from the white house being involved to the administration being in collusion, to lois lerner doing this and ordering this for her political benefit to the computer techies who have just followed office procedures for their dept.....

YET NOT ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE of criminality has been found in the over 100,000 emails and documents turned over to these congress critters by the IRS, not EVEN IN the 24,000 of the missing lerner emails that they were able to recover from her hard drive crash period, through other employees that were cc'd.....

IT HAS BEEN A CIRCUS by these Republican congress critters investigating this, and a right wing media motherload! It's what these critters are playing to....they got cha! And almost had me too! UNTIL I did further research, and started watching their hearings....THEN I KNEW, I was being played like a fool, with the sound bites.

 

[Oldstyle]

LOL...only in your mind, Care would the IRS turning over all of the emails and documents that DON'T show what was going on with the targeting while destroying those that were on the computers of the 7 people involved in the targeting equal "zero criminality"!

They DID target conservatives...

They DID turn over protected IRS information to both other agencies and to liberal groups...

They DID fail to follow Federal sunshine laws and preserve their emails...

They DID fail to retrieve data that was lost in the "supposed" hard drive crashes of all those people involved in this scandal...even though it was there on tape back up...

They DID erase that tape back up even though they SHOULD have known that it contained information that Congress was asking for...

They DID fail to inform Congress that the information that had been subpoenaed had been destroyed...

You think because Eric Holder's Justice Department won't bring charges against the IRS...that nothing criminal has taken place. That's laughable. Holder is the most partisan Attorney General since John Mitchell and even more corrupt.

 

[rightwinger]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Why don't you arrest her?

Waterboarding is an effective tool for Republicans

 

[Mathbud1]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Why don't you arrest her?

Waterboarding is an effective tool for Republicans

Misdirect much?

 

[Mathbud1]

But it is a strawman. The strawman is the idea that she could have been arrested yet. Since the resolution hasn't even been voted on, that is not a possibility.



If you support the idea that Ms. Lerner should be arrested, you would be understandably happy at anything that looks like a step in that direction. The resolution was intended to at least look like a step in that direction. Whether it actually was a step in that direction is debatable.

read the title of this thread: ''...Sgt. At Arms TO ARREST Lois Lerner''

If it was intended for nothing but show, there is still a question of why it was done. Assuming it was nothing but an attention grab is foolish. Maybe it was, but assuming people you disagree with are so shallowly motivated is really just a path to underestimating them.

come onnnnn, there is no other way to look at it...it isn't feasible, it hasn't even made it through committee and it won't make it through a full house vote if by miracle it ever made it there....

I CALL that showmanship and political posturing, and nothing less.

and I am paying for these assholes to do this, with my tax dollars? and you all applaud it?

that, I will never understand....

Just like I am paying with my tax dollars for "assholes" I disagree with to present motions I think are a waste of time too. Or worse to actually pass laws I think are detrimental to society. Or more pointedly, paying taxes so "assholes" in the IRS can target groups they disagree with.

I happen to WANT to find out the TRUTH, without the dog and pony show partisanship. They have behaved with poor judgement, these congress critters conducting the hearings...I read recently that we are nearing 30 or 40 of them now....they have made all kinds of criminal accusations of people from the white house being involved to the administration being in collusion, to lois lerner doing this and ordering this for her political benefit to the computer techies who have just followed office procedures for their dept.....

YET NOT ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE of criminality has been found in the over 100,000 emails and documents turned over to these congress critters by the IRS, not EVEN IN the 24,000 of the missing lerner emails that they were able to recover from her hard drive crash period, through other employees that were cc'd.....

IT HAS BEEN A CIRCUS by these Republican congress critters investigating this, and a right wing media motherload! It's what these critters are playing to....they got cha! And almost had me too! UNTIL I did further research, and started watching their hearings....THEN I KNEW, I was being played like a fool, with the sound bites.

If they have all the information and haven't found anything worthy of indicting Ms. Lerner on, what could they possibly get from her spoken statements that would be damaging enough to change that? She should have nothing to hide at that point.

Either they have all the information from emails and other sources and she would have nothing to fear from answering questions, or they don't have all the information through the other sources and that explains her reticence to answer questions. If she really has nothing to fear from answering their questions, what other motivation could she have for refusing?

Do you believe that the Republicans would hold a "dog and pony" investigation, but that the Democrats would never stoop so low as to intentionally obstruct the House investigation with the intention of making the House Republicans look like fools? Trust liars much?

 

[Mustang]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Why don't you arrest her?

Waterboarding is an effective tool for Republicans

Since they told me it's not torture, that's why I fully support water boarding Dick Cheney.

 

[Statistikhengst]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Here's a newsflash for you:

She should.


Everyone should.


It would set the entire nation free.

 

[paperview]

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

Why don't you arrest her?

Waterboarding is an effective tool for Republicans

Since they told me it's not torture, that's why I fully support water boarding Dick Cheney.

 

[Care4all]

But it is a strawman. The strawman is the idea that she could have been arrested yet. Since the resolution hasn't even been voted on, that is not a possibility.



If you support the idea that Ms. Lerner should be arrested, you would be understandably happy at anything that looks like a step in that direction. The resolution was intended to at least look like a step in that direction. Whether it actually was a step in that direction is debatable.

read the title of this thread: ''...Sgt. At Arms TO ARREST Lois Lerner''

If it was intended for nothing but show, there is still a question of why it was done. Assuming it was nothing but an attention grab is foolish. Maybe it was, but assuming people you disagree with are so shallowly motivated is really just a path to underestimating them.

come onnnnn, there is no other way to look at it...it isn't feasible, it hasn't even made it through committee and it won't make it through a full house vote if by miracle it ever made it there....

I CALL that showmanship and political posturing, and nothing less.

Just like I am paying with my tax dollars for "assholes" I disagree with to present motions I think are a waste of time too. Or worse to actually pass laws I think are detrimental to society. Or more pointedly, paying taxes so "assholes" in the IRS can target groups they disagree with.

I happen to WANT to find out the TRUTH, without the dog and pony show partisanship. They have behaved with poor judgement, these congress critters conducting the hearings...I read recently that we are nearing 30 or 40 of them now....they have made all kinds of criminal accusations of people from the white house being involved to the administration being in collusion, to lois lerner doing this and ordering this for her political benefit to the computer techies who have just followed office procedures for their dept.....

YET NOT ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE of criminality has been found in the over 100,000 emails and documents turned over to these congress critters by the IRS, not EVEN IN the 24,000 of the missing lerner emails that they were able to recover from her hard drive crash period, through other employees that were cc'd.....

IT HAS BEEN A CIRCUS by these Republican congress critters investigating this, and a right wing media motherload! It's what these critters are playing to....they got cha! And almost had me too! UNTIL I did further research, and started watching their hearings....THEN I KNEW, I was being played like a fool, with the sound bites.

If they have all the information and haven't found anything worthy of indicting Ms. Lerner on, what could they possibly get from her spoken statements that would be damaging enough to change that? She should have nothing to hide at that point.

Either they have all the information from emails and other sources and she would have nothing to fear from answering questions, or they don't have all the information through the other sources and that explains her reticence to answer questions. If she really has nothing to fear from answering their questions, what other motivation could she have for refusing?

Do you believe that the Republicans would hold a "dog and pony" investigation, but that the Democrats would never stoop so low as to intentionally obstruct the House investigation with the intention of making the House Republicans look like fools? Trust liars much?

You can say what you want but I have watched the hearings and you obviously haven't....

There are levels to be met in order to take the 5th, and to waive it.



Lois Lerner, read her statement, and then invoked the 5th....

Because Boehner PUBLICALLY SAID in the media, 'that someone at the IRS is going to jail over this': in one of his grand standing, pontificating episodes (to rile up his republican base...and before even knowing the truth of what has happened) the big mouth & big foot man that he is, gave the legal test thresh hold for a citizen to even be able to invoke the 5th....

If he had kept his stupid mouth shut, and acted professionally, he would not have predetermined this case and voiced it, without evidence, in the media, and made that statement that basically irs people are criminals and are going to jail...

WITH THAT STATEMENT, it gave Lerner the right to invoke the 5th, the right to remain silent.....a witch hunt was occurring BY OUR GOVERNMENT, (they, our GOVERNMENT representatives, were using the main stream media, and the right wing media on the internet, to accuse this woman and other irs employees of committing a criminal act, WITHOUT PROOF of any kind that something criminal happened....and they used their official government positions with these interviews with the media, to set a tone for guilt, BEFORE A TRIAL, or even knowing the truth)

Criminality accusations were and are being thrown left and right in the media and in the hearings as of late...BEFORE she even testified and answered their questions that they wanted to ask....

REPUBLICANS SET THE STAGE by their unprofessional actions, and they are OUR GOVERNMENT representatives taking advantage of their power, and the ears in media that hear them.

================================================
NOW:

In order for someone to waive their 5th amendment right, things MUST happen...

1. Her opening statement must leave the committee with a "distorted view of the truth"

Examining her opening statement, word by word, SHE DID NOT.

She told of her job and how she got there, and how many people she is responsible for yadahdah, she then went in to what the inspector general found.... about these scrutiny cases and the BOLO lists were not kosher, then she went to say in very generic terms, that she has done nothing wrong, nothing criminal, nothing inappropriate yadahdadah, then she says she is invoking the 5th, advised by her lawyer.

There was nothing in her statement, that was not what she had always said, even in previous hearings, and it was so generic, she DID NOT DISTORT the truth.

So congress critters CAN NOT say that she waived her rights to remain silent just because of this statement.

2. The second thresh hold test in waiving ones right to invoke the 5th...

The person waiving their rights to the protection of the fifth amendment MUST KNOW that they are waiving their right to 5th amendment protection. (Just like with the rights given with Miranda Statements, the accused MUST KNOW they are giving up their right to remain silent or in this case, to not testify against oneself)

In Lerner's case, this is OBVIOUS that she did not know that she was giving up her 5th amendment protection because in her statement that she read, she finished with she is exorcising her 5th amendment rights.

So neither thresh hold was met. For our over reaching GOVERNMENT, to say that Lerner WAIVED her 5th amendment rights is ludicrous, and our government representatives ON BOTH SIDE OF THE AISLE, were WRONG WRONG WRONG to charge her with contempt of court because of her exercising her constitutional right to take the 5th. ABUSE of GOVERNMENT POWER, which is PRECISELY WHY she was advised by her lawyer to take the 5th in the first place, the witch hunt that was taking place then and continues to this day.

BOTTOM LINE
Congressmen, our government, over reached in saying it was contempt of congress for her to invoke the 5th, when it was CLEARLY NOT

WHICH MEANS, this resolution to arrest Lerner is just what I said, ONLY A DOG AND PONY SHOW ACTION,

and meaningless....merely a political posturing ploy....on both sides of the aisle....if Dems on the committee went along with it, it was for their own political posturing...a person's livelyhood is at stake here, and she has been slandered in the non legal sense and maybe even the legal sense, by these critters, while they truly don't know if she has done anything CRIMINAL....that's just plain wrong.

That's my 2 cents, and WHY I am so upset with these unprofessional, stupid, rear ends, conducting these hearings...they are NOT after the truth...they're just NOT....they were not after the truth from the very beginning....they were too busy making accusations of criminality and grand standing, even before the first hearing took place for them to try to discern the truth of what happened, they were accusing the white house of being behind this, and then the administration offices and the DOJ and the treasury and you name it, they have thrown out one accusation after another, as I have said earlier.

this is clearly, as clear as the light in Day, a partisan posturing witch hunt, void of any proof or facts.

If they want the truth, give Lerner immunity...WHY HAVE THEY WAITED so long? Merely for partisan reasons of dragging this out....

If they want Lerner to testify so they can get to the bottom of this incident, give her immunity, NOW....

 

[Oldstyle]

I happen to WANT to find out the TRUTH, without the dog and pony show partisanship. They have behaved with poor judgement, these congress critters conducting the hearings...I read recently that we are nearing 30 or 40 of them now....they have made all kinds of criminal accusations of people from the white house being involved to the administration being in collusion, to lois lerner doing this and ordering this for her political benefit to the computer techies who have just followed office procedures for their dept.....

YET NOT ONE SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE of criminality has been found in the over 100,000 emails and documents turned over to these congress critters by the IRS, not EVEN IN the 24,000 of the missing lerner emails that they were able to recover from her hard drive crash period, through other employees that were cc'd.....

IT HAS BEEN A CIRCUS by these Republican congress critters investigating this, and a right wing media motherload! It's what these critters are playing to....they got cha! And almost had me too! UNTIL I did further research, and started watching their hearings....THEN I KNEW, I was being played like a fool, with the sound bites.

If they have all the information and haven't found anything worthy of indicting Ms. Lerner on, what could they possibly get from her spoken statements that would be damaging enough to change that? She should have nothing to hide at that point.

Either they have all the information from emails and other sources and she would have nothing to fear from answering questions, or they don't have all the information through the other sources and that explains her reticence to answer questions. If she really has nothing to fear from answering their questions, what other motivation could she have for refusing?

Do you believe that the Republicans would hold a "dog and pony" investigation, but that the Democrats would never stoop so low as to intentionally obstruct the House investigation with the intention of making the House Republicans look like fools? Trust liars much?

You can say what you want but I have watched the hearings and you obviously haven't....

There are levels to be met in order to take the 5th, and to waive it.



Lois Lerner, read her statement, and then invoked the 5th....

Because Boehner PUBLICALLY SAID in the media, 'that someone at the IRS is going to jail over this': in one of his grand standing, pontificating episodes (to rile up his republican base...and before even knowing the truth of what has happened) the big mouth & big foot man that he is, gave the legal test thresh hold for a citizen to even be able to invoke the 5th....

If he had kept his stupid mouth shut, and acted professionally, he would not have predetermined this case and voiced it, without evidence, in the media, and made that statement that basically irs people are criminals and are going to jail...

WITH THAT STATEMENT, it gave Lerner the right to invoke the 5th, the right to remain silent.....a witch hunt was occurring BY OUR GOVERNMENT, (they, our GOVERNMENT representatives, were using the main stream media, and the right wing media on the internet, to accuse this woman and other irs employees of committing a criminal act, WITHOUT PROOF of any kind that something criminal happened....and they used their official government positions with these interviews with the media, to set a tone for guilt, BEFORE A TRIAL, or even knowing the truth)

Criminality accusations were and are being thrown left and right in the media and in the hearings as of late...BEFORE she even testified and answered their questions that they wanted to ask....

REPUBLICANS SET THE STAGE by their unprofessional actions, and they are OUR GOVERNMENT representatives taking advantage of their power, and the ears in media that hear them.

================================================
NOW:

In order for someone to waive their 5th amendment right, things MUST happen...

1. Her opening statement must leave the committee with a "distorted view of the truth"

Examining her opening statement, word by word, SHE DID NOT.

She told of her job and how she got there, and how many people she is responsible for yadahdah, she then went in to what the inspector general found.... about these scrutiny cases and the BOLO lists were not kosher, then she went to say in very generic terms, that she has done nothing wrong, nothing criminal, nothing inappropriate yadahdadah, then she says she is invoking the 5th, advised by her lawyer.

There was nothing in her statement, that was not what she had always said, even in previous hearings, and it was so generic, she DID NOT DISTORT the truth.

So congress critters CAN NOT say that she waived her rights to remain silent just because of this statement.

2. The second thresh hold test in waiving ones right to invoke the 5th...

The person waiving their rights to the protection of the fifth amendment MUST KNOW that they are waiving their right to 5th amendment protection. (Just like with the rights given with Miranda Statements, the accused MUST KNOW they are giving up their right to remain silent or in this case, to not testify against oneself)

In Lerner's case, this is OBVIOUS that she did not know that she was giving up her 5th amendment protection because in her statement that she read, she finished with she is exorcising her 5th amendment rights.

So neither thresh hold was met. For our over reaching GOVERNMENT, to say that Lerner WAIVED her 5th amendment rights is ludicrous, and our government representatives ON BOTH SIDE OF THE AISLE, were WRONG WRONG WRONG to charge her with contempt of court because of her exercising her constitutional right to take the 5th. ABUSE of GOVERNMENT POWER, which is PRECISELY WHY she was advised by her lawyer to take the 5th in the first place, the witch hunt that was taking place then and continues to this day.

BOTTOM LINE
Congressmen, our government, over reached in saying it was contempt of congress for her to invoke the 5th, when it was CLEARLY NOT

WHICH MEANS, this resolution to arrest Lerner is just what I said, ONLY A DOG AND PONY SHOW ACTION,

and meaningless....merely a political posturing ploy....on both sides of the aisle....if Dems on the committee went along with it, it was for their own political posturing...a person's livelyhood is at stake here, and she has been slandered in the non legal sense and maybe even the legal sense, by these critters, while they truly don't know if she has done anything CRIMINAL....that's just plain wrong.

That's my 2 cents, and WHY I am so upset with these unprofessional, stupid, rear ends, conducting these hearings...they are NOT after the truth...they're just NOT....they were not after the truth from the very beginning....they were too busy making accusations of criminality and grand standing, even before the first hearing took place for them to try to discern the truth of what happened, they were accusing the white house of being behind this, and then the administration offices and the DOJ and the treasury and you name it, they have thrown out one accusation after another, as I have said earlier.

this is clearly, as clear as the light in Day, a partisan posturing witch hunt, void of any proof or facts.

If they want the truth, give Lerner immunity...WHY HAVE THEY WAITED so long? Merely for partisan reasons of dragging this out....

If they want Lerner to testify so they can get to the bottom of this incident, give her immunity, NOW....

I don't want Lerner to get immunity! I want to see her go to jail and lose her pension for what she's done. Screw Lois Lerner, she's one of the big fish. Start with the lowest ranking employees and offer them a one time deal...testify to who did what and don't go to jail or refuse to testify and do max time when and if someone else cracks. It's how you deal with organized crime and drug rings.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

This doesn't make any sense.

The 5th Amendment prohibits government from compelling a citizen to self-incriminate.

The responsibility rests solely with the state, not the citizen, to demonstrate guilt, to find evidence of wrongdoing, and present that evidence in an indictment – not the citizen.

Are you truly this ignorant of this fundamental tenet of Constitutional law?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

I don't want Lerner to get immunity! I want to see her go to jail and lose her pension for what she's done. Screw Lois Lerner, she's one of the big fish. Start with the lowest ranking employees and offer them a one time deal...testify to who did what and don't go to jail or refuse to testify and do max time when and if someone else cracks. It's how you deal with organized crime and drug rings.

Your contempt for citizens' civil liberties, the rule of law, and the Constitution are duly noted.

 

[Care4all]

If they have all the information and haven't found anything worthy of indicting Ms. Lerner on, what could they possibly get from her spoken statements that would be damaging enough to change that? She should have nothing to hide at that point.

Either they have all the information from emails and other sources and she would have nothing to fear from answering questions, or they don't have all the information through the other sources and that explains her reticence to answer questions. If she really has nothing to fear from answering their questions, what other motivation could she have for refusing?

Do you believe that the Republicans would hold a "dog and pony" investigation, but that the Democrats would never stoop so low as to intentionally obstruct the House investigation with the intention of making the House Republicans look like fools? Trust liars much?

You can say what you want but I have watched the hearings and you obviously haven't....

There are levels to be met in order to take the 5th, and to waive it.



Lois Lerner, read her statement, and then invoked the 5th....

Because Boehner PUBLICALLY SAID in the media, 'that someone at the IRS is going to jail over this': in one of his grand standing, pontificating episodes (to rile up his republican base...and before even knowing the truth of what has happened) the big mouth & big foot man that he is, gave the legal test thresh hold for a citizen to even be able to invoke the 5th....

If he had kept his stupid mouth shut, and acted professionally, he would not have predetermined this case and voiced it, without evidence, in the media, and made that statement that basically irs people are criminals and are going to jail...

WITH THAT STATEMENT, it gave Lerner the right to invoke the 5th, the right to remain silent.....a witch hunt was occurring BY OUR GOVERNMENT, (they, our GOVERNMENT representatives, were using the main stream media, and the right wing media on the internet, to accuse this woman and other irs employees of committing a criminal act, WITHOUT PROOF of any kind that something criminal happened....and they used their official government positions with these interviews with the media, to set a tone for guilt, BEFORE A TRIAL, or even knowing the truth)

Criminality accusations were and are being thrown left and right in the media and in the hearings as of late...BEFORE she even testified and answered their questions that they wanted to ask....

REPUBLICANS SET THE STAGE by their unprofessional actions, and they are OUR GOVERNMENT representatives taking advantage of their power, and the ears in media that hear them.

================================================
NOW:

In order for someone to waive their 5th amendment right, things MUST happen...

1. Her opening statement must leave the committee with a "distorted view of the truth"

Examining her opening statement, word by word, SHE DID NOT.

She told of her job and how she got there, and how many people she is responsible for yadahdah, she then went in to what the inspector general found.... about these scrutiny cases and the BOLO lists were not kosher, then she went to say in very generic terms, that she has done nothing wrong, nothing criminal, nothing inappropriate yadahdadah, then she says she is invoking the 5th, advised by her lawyer.

There was nothing in her statement, that was not what she had always said, even in previous hearings, and it was so generic, she DID NOT DISTORT the truth.

So congress critters CAN NOT say that she waived her rights to remain silent just because of this statement.

2. The second thresh hold test in waiving ones right to invoke the 5th...

The person waiving their rights to the protection of the fifth amendment MUST KNOW that they are waiving their right to 5th amendment protection. (Just like with the rights given with Miranda Statements, the accused MUST KNOW they are giving up their right to remain silent or in this case, to not testify against oneself)

In Lerner's case, this is OBVIOUS that she did not know that she was giving up her 5th amendment protection because in her statement that she read, she finished with she is exorcising her 5th amendment rights.

So neither thresh hold was met. For our over reaching GOVERNMENT, to say that Lerner WAIVED her 5th amendment rights is ludicrous, and our government representatives ON BOTH SIDE OF THE AISLE, were WRONG WRONG WRONG to charge her with contempt of court because of her exercising her constitutional right to take the 5th. ABUSE of GOVERNMENT POWER, which is PRECISELY WHY she was advised by her lawyer to take the 5th in the first place, the witch hunt that was taking place then and continues to this day.

BOTTOM LINE
Congressmen, our government, over reached in saying it was contempt of congress for her to invoke the 5th, when it was CLEARLY NOT

WHICH MEANS, this resolution to arrest Lerner is just what I said, ONLY A DOG AND PONY SHOW ACTION,

and meaningless....merely a political posturing ploy....on both sides of the aisle....if Dems on the committee went along with it, it was for their own political posturing...a person's livelyhood is at stake here, and she has been slandered in the non legal sense and maybe even the legal sense, by these critters, while they truly don't know if she has done anything CRIMINAL....that's just plain wrong.

That's my 2 cents, and WHY I am so upset with these unprofessional, stupid, rear ends, conducting these hearings...they are NOT after the truth...they're just NOT....they were not after the truth from the very beginning....they were too busy making accusations of criminality and grand standing, even before the first hearing took place for them to try to discern the truth of what happened, they were accusing the white house of being behind this, and then the administration offices and the DOJ and the treasury and you name it, they have thrown out one accusation after another, as I have said earlier.

this is clearly, as clear as the light in Day, a partisan posturing witch hunt, void of any proof or facts.

If they want the truth, give Lerner immunity...WHY HAVE THEY WAITED so long? Merely for partisan reasons of dragging this out....

If they want Lerner to testify so they can get to the bottom of this incident, give her immunity, NOW....

I don't want Lerner to get immunity! I want to see her go to jail and lose her pension for what she's done. Screw Lois Lerner, she's one of the big fish. Start with the lowest ranking employees and offer them a one time deal...testify to who did what and don't go to jail or refuse to testify and do max time when and if someone else cracks. It's how you deal with organized crime and drug rings.

sigh....what has SHE DONE that was criminal Oldstyle? And WHY would you want her to go to jail, when no criminal laws have been shown to be broken?

Where oh where are you even getting this notion that some criminal act occurred? For God's sake, what EVIDENCE is there supporting this?

DO YOU HAVE A LINK FOR INFORMATION we may not have read?

The Republican congress critters came out of the pony gate, stating that the white house was involved with Learner to curb these groups...this was their conspiracy, this is what they are still claiming, even though there was NO COMMUNICATION between the white house and Learner with any of Obama's administration....which came out.

Giving Learner immunity, will show if there was collusion or collaboration between Lerner and anyone else to purposely curtail the conservative and progressive groups for political reasons, verse for expediency of accepting the 60,000 groups trying to claim tax exempt status.

NOT WANTING HER TO TESTIFY, with immunity, is a sign that YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

 

[Oldstyle]

I don't want Lerner to get immunity! I want to see her go to jail and lose her pension for what she's done. Screw Lois Lerner, she's one of the big fish. Start with the lowest ranking employees and offer them a one time deal...testify to who did what and don't go to jail or refuse to testify and do max time when and if someone else cracks. It's how you deal with organized crime and drug rings.

Your contempt for citizens' civil liberties, the rule of law, and the Constitution are duly noted.

Wow, I'm in contempt of citizens' civil liberties, the rule of law and the Constitution because I'm angry that employees of the IRS broke the law and trampled on the rights of citizens? How does that work exactly?

This isn't a partisan issue! This would be wrong if it was conservatives targeting liberals! It needs to be addressed and the people that used the IRS as a weapon against their political opponents need to be punished to the full extent of the law so it doesn't happen again.

 

[Oldstyle]

You can say what you want but I have watched the hearings and you obviously haven't....

There are levels to be met in order to take the 5th, and to waive it.



Lois Lerner, read her statement, and then invoked the 5th....

Because Boehner PUBLICALLY SAID in the media, 'that someone at the IRS is going to jail over this': in one of his grand standing, pontificating episodes (to rile up his republican base...and before even knowing the truth of what has happened) the big mouth & big foot man that he is, gave the legal test thresh hold for a citizen to even be able to invoke the 5th....

If he had kept his stupid mouth shut, and acted professionally, he would not have predetermined this case and voiced it, without evidence, in the media, and made that statement that basically irs people are criminals and are going to jail...

WITH THAT STATEMENT, it gave Lerner the right to invoke the 5th, the right to remain silent.....a witch hunt was occurring BY OUR GOVERNMENT, (they, our GOVERNMENT representatives, were using the main stream media, and the right wing media on the internet, to accuse this woman and other irs employees of committing a criminal act, WITHOUT PROOF of any kind that something criminal happened....and they used their official government positions with these interviews with the media, to set a tone for guilt, BEFORE A TRIAL, or even knowing the truth)

Criminality accusations were and are being thrown left and right in the media and in the hearings as of late...BEFORE she even testified and answered their questions that they wanted to ask....

REPUBLICANS SET THE STAGE by their unprofessional actions, and they are OUR GOVERNMENT representatives taking advantage of their power, and the ears in media that hear them.

================================================
NOW:

In order for someone to waive their 5th amendment right, things MUST happen...

1. Her opening statement must leave the committee with a "distorted view of the truth"

Examining her opening statement, word by word, SHE DID NOT.

She told of her job and how she got there, and how many people she is responsible for yadahdah, she then went in to what the inspector general found.... about these scrutiny cases and the BOLO lists were not kosher, then she went to say in very generic terms, that she has done nothing wrong, nothing criminal, nothing inappropriate yadahdadah, then she says she is invoking the 5th, advised by her lawyer.

There was nothing in her statement, that was not what she had always said, even in previous hearings, and it was so generic, she DID NOT DISTORT the truth.

So congress critters CAN NOT say that she waived her rights to remain silent just because of this statement.

2. The second thresh hold test in waiving ones right to invoke the 5th...

The person waiving their rights to the protection of the fifth amendment MUST KNOW that they are waiving their right to 5th amendment protection. (Just like with the rights given with Miranda Statements, the accused MUST KNOW they are giving up their right to remain silent or in this case, to not testify against oneself)

In Lerner's case, this is OBVIOUS that she did not know that she was giving up her 5th amendment protection because in her statement that she read, she finished with she is exorcising her 5th amendment rights.

So neither thresh hold was met. For our over reaching GOVERNMENT, to say that Lerner WAIVED her 5th amendment rights is ludicrous, and our government representatives ON BOTH SIDE OF THE AISLE, were WRONG WRONG WRONG to charge her with contempt of court because of her exercising her constitutional right to take the 5th. ABUSE of GOVERNMENT POWER, which is PRECISELY WHY she was advised by her lawyer to take the 5th in the first place, the witch hunt that was taking place then and continues to this day.

BOTTOM LINE
Congressmen, our government, over reached in saying it was contempt of congress for her to invoke the 5th, when it was CLEARLY NOT

WHICH MEANS, this resolution to arrest Lerner is just what I said, ONLY A DOG AND PONY SHOW ACTION,

and meaningless....merely a political posturing ploy....on both sides of the aisle....if Dems on the committee went along with it, it was for their own political posturing...a person's livelyhood is at stake here, and she has been slandered in the non legal sense and maybe even the legal sense, by these critters, while they truly don't know if she has done anything CRIMINAL....that's just plain wrong.

That's my 2 cents, and WHY I am so upset with these unprofessional, stupid, rear ends, conducting these hearings...they are NOT after the truth...they're just NOT....they were not after the truth from the very beginning....they were too busy making accusations of criminality and grand standing, even before the first hearing took place for them to try to discern the truth of what happened, they were accusing the white house of being behind this, and then the administration offices and the DOJ and the treasury and you name it, they have thrown out one accusation after another, as I have said earlier.

this is clearly, as clear as the light in Day, a partisan posturing witch hunt, void of any proof or facts.

If they want the truth, give Lerner immunity...WHY HAVE THEY WAITED so long? Merely for partisan reasons of dragging this out....

If they want Lerner to testify so they can get to the bottom of this incident, give her immunity, NOW....

I don't want Lerner to get immunity! I want to see her go to jail and lose her pension for what she's done. Screw Lois Lerner, she's one of the big fish. Start with the lowest ranking employees and offer them a one time deal...testify to who did what and don't go to jail or refuse to testify and do max time when and if someone else cracks. It's how you deal with organized crime and drug rings.

sigh....what has SHE DONE that was criminal Oldstyle? And WHY would you want her to go to jail, when no criminal laws have been shown to be broken?

Where oh where are you even getting this notion that some criminal act occurred? For God's sake, what EVIDENCE is there supporting this?

DO YOU HAVE A LINK FOR INFORMATION we may not have read?

The Republican congress critters came out of the pony gate, stating that the white house was involved with Learner to curb these groups...this was their conspiracy, this is what they are still claiming, even though there was NO COMMUNICATION between the white house and Learner with any of Obama's administration....which came out.

Giving Learner immunity, will show if there was collusion or collaboration between Lerner and anyone else to purposely curtail the conservative and progressive groups for political reasons, verse for expediency of accepting the 60,000 groups trying to claim tax exempt status.

NOT WANTING HER TO TESTIFY, with immunity, is a sign that YOU DO NOT WANT TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

What "came out" was that there was communication between Lerner and someone at the Justice Department and then communication between that person and the White House. This claim that there was no "direct" communication between Lerner and the Obama White House is something that's factually correct but totally ignores what took place.

You really can't seem to grasp the fact that targeting of your political opponents using the IRS is illegal! It was one of the things that got Richard Nixon impeached! You can't seem to grasp that releasing private tax information of citizens to other agencies of the government is illegal. You can't seem to grasp that releasing private tax information to political groups to use against the opposition is illegal! Lois Lerner and her merry band broke the LAW, Care! It's why she's taking the 5th!

 

[Oldstyle]

And my not wanting Lerner to get immunity isn't a sign that I don't want her to tell the truth...it's a sign that I don't want that smug bitch to get away with what she did! I want to see her prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law because she thought that she was bigger than the law...she thought that SHE knew better than the Supreme Court or the Congress.

 

[Mathbud1]

Are Republicans afraid of Lois Lerner?

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

This doesn't make any sense.

The 5th Amendment prohibits government from compelling a citizen to self-incriminate.

The responsibility rests solely with the state, not the citizen, to demonstrate guilt, to find evidence of wrongdoing, and present that evidence in an indictment – not the citizen.

Are you truly this ignorant of this fundamental tenet of Constitutional law?

Here's my predictable response (let's go around the circle again. Lol.)

So what she's got to say would incriminate herself? She stoutly maintains that she did nothing wrong. Nothing wrong means nothing she has to say would possibly incriminate herself. She should have loads of non-incriminating things to talk about. Instead she point blank refuses to answer any questions from go. The only reason I can think of that a truly innocent person would refuse to answer any questions at all would be too obstruct the proceedings.

So, either she does have something to say that would be self incriminating, or she is intentionally obstructing congress which is apparently an arrestable (not a word? Lol.) offense. So by her own statement of innocence she is basically admitting to obstructing congress.

[emoji15]

 

[Care4all]

Are Democrats? Afraid what would happen if she had to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

This doesn't make any sense.

The 5th Amendment prohibits government from compelling a citizen to self-incriminate.

The responsibility rests solely with the state, not the citizen, to demonstrate guilt, to find evidence of wrongdoing, and present that evidence in an indictment – not the citizen.

Are you truly this ignorant of this fundamental tenet of Constitutional law?

Here's my predictable response (let's go around the circle again. Lol.)

So what she's got to say would incriminate herself? She stoutly maintains that she did nothing wrong. Nothing wrong means nothing she has to say would possibly incriminate herself. She should have loads of non-incriminating things to talk about. Instead she point blank refuses to answer any questions from go. The only reason I can think of that a truly innocent person would refuse to answer any questions at all would be too obstruct the proceedings.

So, either she does have something to say that would be self incriminating, or she is intentionally obstructing congress which is apparently an arrestable (not a word? Lol.) offense. So by her own statement of innocence she is basically admitting to obstructing congress.

[emoji15]

she refused to answer any of these Congressmen's questions who were and are ''out to get her, humiliate her, bombard her with ridiculous accusations, spend half their questioning time grand standing and not letting her answer the questions etc etc etc etc etc''...

(you need to go to c-span, and watch the archived hearings, you'd understand if you would watch them, exactly WHY her lawyer advised her not to testify before THEM)

she DID NOT REFUSE to answer any questions before the Department of Justice's Interrogators....her lawyer advised that she should answer their questions!