Brexit busted.

[Drummond]

They just hate foreigners.

I'm not following your reasoning.

You're saying that all 'Brexit' supporters are football hooligans ?

Or, that football hooligans don't chant things intended purely to be provocative ... and just for that reason ?

Its no secret that the bulk of Brexit supporters come from the low educated and illiterate. This was a party picnic for them.
I look forward to seeing you condemn their behaviour.

Seems you dodged my question ? Understandable ...

I do indeed condemn their behaviour. I also condemn any remarks of theirs which were made which were insulting to Europe, or Europeans. I am not here to insult or disparage Europeans myself ... I simply argue to be free of a control-freaking colossus called the EU, so that the UK may know full political autonomy.

As for the 'fans' ... I'll no doubt applaud any and all actions taken against them. In fact ... if England is disqualified, though it might be unfair against the team .. it sends a message that only decent behaviour will serve. And that's just fine by me.

As I just posted, you want to be free? When has the UK govt ever been free? The House of Lords is unelected.

We'd be free of foreign interference. Simple !

 

[frigidweirdo]

The EU has no unelected law makers – the UK has 825 in the House of Lords, including 92 born into the job

Everyone knows that lords in the House of Lords reach their position through no form of voting system. However ... they are at least British, and do NOT constitute any foreign power. The same cannot be said of the EU, of course, where foreigners predominate, AND have the power to legislate 'for' us.

But see this ...

Who will be in the EU’s next unelected politburo? | AECR

Following the appointment of the unelected Jean-Claude Juncker at the head of the European Commission, a further 27 unelected commissioners must now be appointed, for the next five years, to their powerful posts in the European Commission.

The European Commission – from where all EU legislation emanates – is an institution of around 23,000 civil servants managed by these appointed commissioners .... They serve five-year terms and cannot be removed from their positions by the ballot box.

You were saying .... ?

Oh, it's okay because they're British. Do they represent the normal British people though? More of them are Tories than anything else. Is this fair? The Tories have permanent dominance in one part of government? If you're not a Tory, then does the House of Lords represent you?

You say they're British.

Scotland has 16 peers as far as I can tell from this: MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF LORDS: SCOTTISH PEERS (NO. 9) (Hansard, 22 June 1999)

That's out of 801 who can sit in the House of Lords. Do you think the Scottish might think this is a little unfair? How many of these Scottish peers are more interested in the interests of England or Britain over Scotland too?

Juncker was appointed as head of the EU. There are 28 members of the commission, each one is chosen by the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of the country they are from. Each country gets one. So, the UK voted for Cameron, Cameron chose this person. That's a lot more democratic than the House of Lords where the government can just make anyone a peer, so they can put in 2,000 of their own, and have a massive majority, no matter what.

 

[frigidweirdo]

They just hate foreigners.

I'm not following your reasoning.

You're saying that all 'Brexit' supporters are football hooligans ?

Or, that football hooligans don't chant things intended purely to be provocative ... and just for that reason ?

Its no secret that the bulk of Brexit supporters come from the low educated and illiterate. This was a party picnic for them.
I look forward to seeing you condemn their behaviour.

Seems you dodged my question ? Understandable ...

I do indeed condemn their behaviour. I also condemn any remarks of theirs which were made which were insulting to Europe, or Europeans. I am not here to insult or disparage Europeans myself ... I simply argue to be free of a control-freaking colossus called the EU, so that the UK may know full political autonomy.

As for the 'fans' ... I'll no doubt applaud any and all actions taken against them. In fact ... if England is disqualified, though it might be unfair against the team .. it sends a message that only decent behaviour will serve. And that's just fine by me.

As I just posted, you want to be free? When has the UK govt ever been free? The House of Lords is unelected.

We'd be free of foreign interference. Simple !

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

 

[HenryBHough]

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

And that's why the Canada on your planet uses US currency, has interest rates set by the U.S. Federal Reserve and their prime minister is appointed by an American (well, putatively) president.

Must suck to be that far removed from humankind......

 

[Decus]

frigidweirdo:

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.[/QUOTE]

You are right.

The UK has talked about following the Norwegian model but Norwegians feel that this would be a mistake:

"If Britain votes to leave the E.U. on June 23 and follows Norway’s lead as an E.U. outsider, officials here say, the British should be prepared for less control over their own affairs, not more. That is because Norway still must abide by E.U. rules and regulations, even though it has no say in shaping them."[/I]

Brits look to Norway for post-Brexit model. Norwegians urge Brits to look again.

.

 

[Drummond]

The EU has no unelected law makers – the UK has 825 in the House of Lords, including 92 born into the job

Everyone knows that lords in the House of Lords reach their position through no form of voting system. However ... they are at least British, and do NOT constitute any foreign power. The same cannot be said of the EU, of course, where foreigners predominate, AND have the power to legislate 'for' us.

But see this ...

Who will be in the EU’s next unelected politburo? | AECR

Following the appointment of the unelected Jean-Claude Juncker at the head of the European Commission, a further 27 unelected commissioners must now be appointed, for the next five years, to their powerful posts in the European Commission.

The European Commission – from where all EU legislation emanates – is an institution of around 23,000 civil servants managed by these appointed commissioners .... They serve five-year terms and cannot be removed from their positions by the ballot box.

You were saying .... ?

Oh, it's okay because they're British. Do they represent the normal British people though? More of them are Tories than anything else. Is this fair? The Tories have permanent dominance in one part of government? If you're not a Tory, then does the House of Lords represent you?

You say they're British.

Scotland has 16 peers as far as I can tell from this: MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF LORDS: SCOTTISH PEERS (NO. 9) (Hansard, 22 June 1999)

That's out of 801 who can sit in the House of Lords. Do you think the Scottish might think this is a little unfair? How many of these Scottish peers are more interested in the interests of England or Britain over Scotland too?

Juncker was appointed as head of the EU. There are 28 members of the commission, each one is chosen by the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of the country they are from. Each country gets one. So, the UK voted for Cameron, Cameron chose this person. That's a lot more democratic than the House of Lords where the government can just make anyone a peer, so they can put in 2,000 of their own, and have a massive majority, no matter what.

Yes, I say they're British. As in, not part of a foreign control-freaking elite, dominated by those foreigners, putting UK interests a long way down their list of priorities ! Whether or not you like the House of Lords, they do NOT represent a foreign power, and the activities of the House of Lords do serve British interests. And, British interests FIRST.

And if you concede that the Government can put in peers 'of their own', then it's an ELECTED Government that chooses to. The result may not be directly democratic ... but, there's an indirect version of it in play in your scenario.

Tell me - have the Government put in '2000' peers ? Care to list them ?

And in your 'model democracy' in the EU ... even with the example you gave, isn't it the case that foreign votes predominate over ours ?

Oh , and do tell us what your ambitions and goals are in arguing your line. Are they 'British-friendly' ? I keep addressing this. But you won't even divulge your nationality, to so much as give us a clue. And .. you won't be candid as to why ....

 

[Drummond]

I'm not following your reasoning.

You're saying that all 'Brexit' supporters are football hooligans ?

Or, that football hooligans don't chant things intended purely to be provocative ... and just for that reason ?

Its no secret that the bulk of Brexit supporters come from the low educated and illiterate. This was a party picnic for them.
I look forward to seeing you condemn their behaviour.

Seems you dodged my question ? Understandable ...

I do indeed condemn their behaviour. I also condemn any remarks of theirs which were made which were insulting to Europe, or Europeans. I am not here to insult or disparage Europeans myself ... I simply argue to be free of a control-freaking colossus called the EU, so that the UK may know full political autonomy.

As for the 'fans' ... I'll no doubt applaud any and all actions taken against them. In fact ... if England is disqualified, though it might be unfair against the team .. it sends a message that only decent behaviour will serve. And that's just fine by me.

As I just posted, you want to be free? When has the UK govt ever been free? The House of Lords is unelected.

We'd be free of foreign interference. Simple !

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

'Influence' .. that's indirect at best. Not an outright EDICT, or a LAW. No, we'll make our own laws, thanks ...

 

[Drummond]

The latest threat ... doom and gloom, Armageddon awaits !! This is bloody hilarious ... !!!!! ...

Brexit will spell END of EU and bring ‘DESTRUCTION of Western civilisation’, says eurocrat

A TOP EU boss has ramped up ‘Project Fear’ by warning a Brexit vote will bring about the end of “Western political civilisation”.

European Council president Donald Tusk made the astonishing claim while also telling Britons he can not guarantee a positive relationship between Brussels and the UK following a Leave result on June 23.

With just ten days to go until Britain’s historic in/out referendum on EU membership, the former Polish prime minister delivered yet another doom-laden prediction if the UK were to cut ties with the 28-country bloc.

Folks: we still have time for a prediction that the Moon will collide with Earth, or that a solar flare will erupt from the Sun, killing all life on Earth .... IF ... the UK leaves the EU !! Egad !!!

 

[HenryBHough]

I believe Britain has nothing to worry about concerning possible EU retaliation for their leaving. Simply because ordinary French and German citizens are watching crefully and, if Britain succeeds, they're gone too. There will be no bureaucracy left to fuck thing up.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

frigidweirdo:

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

You are right.

The UK has talked about following the Norwegian model but Norwegians feel that this would be a mistake:

"If Britain votes to leave the E.U. on June 23 and follows Norway’s lead as an E.U. outsider, officials here say, the British should be prepared for less control over their own affairs, not more. That is because Norway still must abide by E.U. rules and regulations, even though it has no say in shaping them."[/I]

Brits look to Norway for post-Brexit model. Norwegians urge Brits to look again.

.[/QUOTE]
They just dont get it. It is lucky that they only have to put a x in a box to do their democratic duty. Most of them are too thick to do anything more taxing.

 

[Tommy Tainant]

EU group slammed for 'shameful' claim Brexit would stop an Orlando-style attack

Brexit trash using slaughtered club - goers to push political agenda.

Classy !

 

[frigidweirdo]

The EU has no unelected law makers – the UK has 825 in the House of Lords, including 92 born into the job

Everyone knows that lords in the House of Lords reach their position through no form of voting system. However ... they are at least British, and do NOT constitute any foreign power. The same cannot be said of the EU, of course, where foreigners predominate, AND have the power to legislate 'for' us.

But see this ...

Who will be in the EU’s next unelected politburo? | AECR

Following the appointment of the unelected Jean-Claude Juncker at the head of the European Commission, a further 27 unelected commissioners must now be appointed, for the next five years, to their powerful posts in the European Commission.

The European Commission – from where all EU legislation emanates – is an institution of around 23,000 civil servants managed by these appointed commissioners .... They serve five-year terms and cannot be removed from their positions by the ballot box.

You were saying .... ?

Oh, it's okay because they're British. Do they represent the normal British people though? More of them are Tories than anything else. Is this fair? The Tories have permanent dominance in one part of government? If you're not a Tory, then does the House of Lords represent you?

You say they're British.

Scotland has 16 peers as far as I can tell from this: MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF LORDS: SCOTTISH PEERS (NO. 9) (Hansard, 22 June 1999)

That's out of 801 who can sit in the House of Lords. Do you think the Scottish might think this is a little unfair? How many of these Scottish peers are more interested in the interests of England or Britain over Scotland too?

Juncker was appointed as head of the EU. There are 28 members of the commission, each one is chosen by the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of the country they are from. Each country gets one. So, the UK voted for Cameron, Cameron chose this person. That's a lot more democratic than the House of Lords where the government can just make anyone a peer, so they can put in 2,000 of their own, and have a massive majority, no matter what.

Yes, I say they're British. As in, not part of a foreign control-freaking elite, dominated by those foreigners, putting UK interests a long way down their list of priorities ! Whether or not you like the House of Lords, they do NOT represent a foreign power, and the activities of the House of Lords do serve British interests. And, British interests FIRST.

And if you concede that the Government can put in peers 'of their own', then it's an ELECTED Government that chooses to. The result may not be directly democratic ... but, there's an indirect version of it in play in your scenario.

Tell me - have the Government put in '2000' peers ? Care to list them ?

And in your 'model democracy' in the EU ... even with the example you gave, isn't it the case that foreign votes predominate over ours ?

Oh , and do tell us what your ambitions and goals are in arguing your line. Are they 'British-friendly' ? I keep addressing this. But you won't even divulge your nationality, to so much as give us a clue. And .. you won't be candid as to why ....

Unless of course you're Scottish, Welsh or Catholic from Northern Ireland, in which case you probably do thing they're part of a "foreign control-freaking elite".

They don't put British interests first. Many of them are Tories, when have the Tories ever put British interests first? I mean, the Tories are destroying the NHS, right? Whose interests are they representing exactly when they do this? The people? No, they're putting the interests of the RICH first. What about education, are they representing the British people when they're messing around with schools, turning them into academies for no reason other than they want to save money and privatize the schools, and make the rich richer?

Seriously? Just because you're British, doesn't mean you're looking out for the interests of the British.

The funny thing about what I said about the House of Lords, you concede there is indirect democracy. This is the same as the EU executive. Yet with the EU you say "it's bad, it's not democracy" with the House of Lords you say "It's good, it's indirect democracy".

 

[frigidweirdo]

frigidweirdo:

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

You are right.

The UK has talked about following the Norwegian model but Norwegians feel that this would be a mistake:

"If Britain votes to leave the E.U. on June 23 and follows Norway’s lead as an E.U. outsider, officials here say, the British should be prepared for less control over their own affairs, not more. That is because Norway still must abide by E.U. rules and regulations, even though it has no say in shaping them."[/I]

Brits look to Norway for post-Brexit model. Norwegians urge Brits to look again.

.[/QUOTE]

For the most part the Brexit people have realized this, and not spoken about it since way back when. Literally they jump on anything, say how great it is, and then figure out it's wrong and then go find something else to jump on, until the only thing left is immigration, where they're comfortable.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Its no secret that the bulk of Brexit supporters come from the low educated and illiterate. This was a party picnic for them.
I look forward to seeing you condemn their behaviour.

Seems you dodged my question ? Understandable ...

I do indeed condemn their behaviour. I also condemn any remarks of theirs which were made which were insulting to Europe, or Europeans. I am not here to insult or disparage Europeans myself ... I simply argue to be free of a control-freaking colossus called the EU, so that the UK may know full political autonomy.

As for the 'fans' ... I'll no doubt applaud any and all actions taken against them. In fact ... if England is disqualified, though it might be unfair against the team .. it sends a message that only decent behaviour will serve. And that's just fine by me.

As I just posted, you want to be free? When has the UK govt ever been free? The House of Lords is unelected.

We'd be free of foreign interference. Simple !

No you won't.

That's such nonsense. If the EU decides to do something, they'll have influence over the UK, and the UK won't have any ability to influence the political process that decides these things.

It's like saying Canada is free from US interference. It's not.

'Influence' .. that's indirect at best. Not an outright EDICT, or a LAW. No, we'll make our own laws, thanks ...

No, it's indirect.

The EU says "If you want to trade said product with us, you will need it to meet our requirements". So, those people who want to trade in the EU will then just make all their products meet those requirements because it'll be cheaper to do that than have to ways of meeting requirements.

The UK govt might even follow EU regulations because it'd just be easier.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I believe Britain has nothing to worry about concerning possible EU retaliation for their leaving. Simply because ordinary French and German citizens are watching crefully and, if Britain succeeds, they're gone too. There will be no bureaucracy left to fuck thing up.

I doubt it.

The EU leaders like Tusk saying a UK exit could lead to the break up of the EU just makes people more likely to vote for an exit, simply because they like the thought of being important.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Well the pound has been dropping like a stone, and again the pound has dropped.

Pound Falls Again As Markets Eye Brexit Polls

"
Pound Falls Again As Markets Eye Brexit Polls"

What do you think will happen on Friday? Chaos.

It's lost 7 euro cents to the pound in 2 weeks.

The last poll that had stay ahead was Jun 2nd, the currency went up over that period, before that, around the time of that little dip, there was one saying leave was ahead. Seems to go hand in hand.

However telephone polling had 45% to 50%/ stay to leave, and then before that 48% to 47%. Internet polls seem to be more in favor of leave. The most recent one had 15% undecided compared to 5% a few days earlier.

 

[Drummond]

The EU has no unelected law makers – the UK has 825 in the House of Lords, including 92 born into the job

Everyone knows that lords in the House of Lords reach their position through no form of voting system. However ... they are at least British, and do NOT constitute any foreign power. The same cannot be said of the EU, of course, where foreigners predominate, AND have the power to legislate 'for' us.

But see this ...

Who will be in the EU’s next unelected politburo? | AECR

Following the appointment of the unelected Jean-Claude Juncker at the head of the European Commission, a further 27 unelected commissioners must now be appointed, for the next five years, to their powerful posts in the European Commission.

The European Commission – from where all EU legislation emanates – is an institution of around 23,000 civil servants managed by these appointed commissioners .... They serve five-year terms and cannot be removed from their positions by the ballot box.

You were saying .... ?

Oh, it's okay because they're British. Do they represent the normal British people though? More of them are Tories than anything else. Is this fair? The Tories have permanent dominance in one part of government? If you're not a Tory, then does the House of Lords represent you?

You say they're British.

Scotland has 16 peers as far as I can tell from this: MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF LORDS: SCOTTISH PEERS (NO. 9) (Hansard, 22 June 1999)

That's out of 801 who can sit in the House of Lords. Do you think the Scottish might think this is a little unfair? How many of these Scottish peers are more interested in the interests of England or Britain over Scotland too?

Juncker was appointed as head of the EU. There are 28 members of the commission, each one is chosen by the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of the country they are from. Each country gets one. So, the UK voted for Cameron, Cameron chose this person. That's a lot more democratic than the House of Lords where the government can just make anyone a peer, so they can put in 2,000 of their own, and have a massive majority, no matter what.

Yes, I say they're British. As in, not part of a foreign control-freaking elite, dominated by those foreigners, putting UK interests a long way down their list of priorities ! Whether or not you like the House of Lords, they do NOT represent a foreign power, and the activities of the House of Lords do serve British interests. And, British interests FIRST.

And if you concede that the Government can put in peers 'of their own', then it's an ELECTED Government that chooses to. The result may not be directly democratic ... but, there's an indirect version of it in play in your scenario.

Tell me - have the Government put in '2000' peers ? Care to list them ?

And in your 'model democracy' in the EU ... even with the example you gave, isn't it the case that foreign votes predominate over ours ?

Oh , and do tell us what your ambitions and goals are in arguing your line. Are they 'British-friendly' ? I keep addressing this. But you won't even divulge your nationality, to so much as give us a clue. And .. you won't be candid as to why ....

Unless of course you're Scottish, Welsh or Catholic from Northern Ireland, in which case you probably do thing they're part of a "foreign control-freaking elite".

They don't put British interests first. Many of them are Tories, when have the Tories ever put British interests first? I mean, the Tories are destroying the NHS, right? Whose interests are they representing exactly when they do this? The people? No, they're putting the interests of the RICH first. What about education, are they representing the British people when they're messing around with schools, turning them into academies for no reason other than they want to save money and privatize the schools, and make the rich richer?

Seriously? Just because you're British, doesn't mean you're looking out for the interests of the British.

The funny thing about what I said about the House of Lords, you concede there is indirect democracy. This is the same as the EU executive. Yet with the EU you say "it's bad, it's not democracy" with the House of Lords you say "It's good, it's indirect democracy".

I'm an Englishman, living in Wales. Do I think I'm living in a foreign land ? NO. Do I doubt my thinking, when I'm surrounded by people (occasionally) talking in a near impenetrable Welsh accent ? Er'm, sometimes ...

But, no. I don't think of Wales, Scotland, etc as 'foreign lands'. Do I think of France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland, etc as 'foreign lands' ... well .. YES .. because ... they ARE ...

... and they think they have a right to legislate for us in the UK, courtesy of being part of the EU !! High time we were shot of such interference in our affairs.

You say the Conservatives don't put British interests first. I disagree ... some Conservatives definitely do .. Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith .. two stellar examples for you of Conservatives who do. There are, of course, other such examples. Though .. Cameron could be argued, through his scaremongering tactics, to be putting the EU before all else,namely, FOREIGN interests .. so maybe you've a point of sorts.

Don't bore me with talk of the Conservatives 'trying to destroy the NHS'. Such claims were made decades ago, yet the NHS not only still exists, but dominates our healthcare. These claims are mere Leftie rot.

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

 

[Drummond]

I believe Britain has nothing to worry about concerning possible EU retaliation for their leaving. Simply because ordinary French and German citizens are watching crefully and, if Britain succeeds, they're gone too. There will be no bureaucracy left to fuck thing up.

I doubt it.

The EU leaders like Tusk saying a UK exit could lead to the break up of the EU just makes people more likely to vote for an exit, simply because they like the thought of being important.

Perhaps we're just completely fed up with all the ridiculous 'doom and gloom' stuff, interwoven with threats and other scaremongering ploys ? Perhaps we see how shabby the scaremongering tactics truly are, and we wonder at the mentality that would stoop to it all ?

And perhaps we dare to think we have a right to run our own affairs, free of the shabby disreputability (clearly illustrated) of the political figures that oppose us in this ?

 

[frigidweirdo]

The EU has no unelected law makers – the UK has 825 in the House of Lords, including 92 born into the job

Everyone knows that lords in the House of Lords reach their position through no form of voting system. However ... they are at least British, and do NOT constitute any foreign power. The same cannot be said of the EU, of course, where foreigners predominate, AND have the power to legislate 'for' us.

But see this ...

Who will be in the EU’s next unelected politburo? | AECR

Following the appointment of the unelected Jean-Claude Juncker at the head of the European Commission, a further 27 unelected commissioners must now be appointed, for the next five years, to their powerful posts in the European Commission.

The European Commission – from where all EU legislation emanates – is an institution of around 23,000 civil servants managed by these appointed commissioners .... They serve five-year terms and cannot be removed from their positions by the ballot box.

You were saying .... ?

Oh, it's okay because they're British. Do they represent the normal British people though? More of them are Tories than anything else. Is this fair? The Tories have permanent dominance in one part of government? If you're not a Tory, then does the House of Lords represent you?

You say they're British.

Scotland has 16 peers as far as I can tell from this: MEMBERSHIP OF HOUSE OF LORDS: SCOTTISH PEERS (NO. 9) (Hansard, 22 June 1999)

That's out of 801 who can sit in the House of Lords. Do you think the Scottish might think this is a little unfair? How many of these Scottish peers are more interested in the interests of England or Britain over Scotland too?

Juncker was appointed as head of the EU. There are 28 members of the commission, each one is chosen by the ELECTED GOVERNMENT of the country they are from. Each country gets one. So, the UK voted for Cameron, Cameron chose this person. That's a lot more democratic than the House of Lords where the government can just make anyone a peer, so they can put in 2,000 of their own, and have a massive majority, no matter what.

Yes, I say they're British. As in, not part of a foreign control-freaking elite, dominated by those foreigners, putting UK interests a long way down their list of priorities ! Whether or not you like the House of Lords, they do NOT represent a foreign power, and the activities of the House of Lords do serve British interests. And, British interests FIRST.

And if you concede that the Government can put in peers 'of their own', then it's an ELECTED Government that chooses to. The result may not be directly democratic ... but, there's an indirect version of it in play in your scenario.

Tell me - have the Government put in '2000' peers ? Care to list them ?

And in your 'model democracy' in the EU ... even with the example you gave, isn't it the case that foreign votes predominate over ours ?

Oh , and do tell us what your ambitions and goals are in arguing your line. Are they 'British-friendly' ? I keep addressing this. But you won't even divulge your nationality, to so much as give us a clue. And .. you won't be candid as to why ....

Unless of course you're Scottish, Welsh or Catholic from Northern Ireland, in which case you probably do thing they're part of a "foreign control-freaking elite".

They don't put British interests first. Many of them are Tories, when have the Tories ever put British interests first? I mean, the Tories are destroying the NHS, right? Whose interests are they representing exactly when they do this? The people? No, they're putting the interests of the RICH first. What about education, are they representing the British people when they're messing around with schools, turning them into academies for no reason other than they want to save money and privatize the schools, and make the rich richer?

Seriously? Just because you're British, doesn't mean you're looking out for the interests of the British.

The funny thing about what I said about the House of Lords, you concede there is indirect democracy. This is the same as the EU executive. Yet with the EU you say "it's bad, it's not democracy" with the House of Lords you say "It's good, it's indirect democracy".

I'm an Englishman, living in Wales. Do I think I'm living in a foreign land ? NO. Do I doubt my thinking, when I'm surrounded by people (occasionally) talking in a near impenetrable Welsh accent ? Er'm, sometimes ...

But, no. I don't think of Wales, Scotland, etc as 'foreign lands'. Do I think of France, Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Poland, etc as 'foreign lands' ... well .. YES .. because ... they ARE ...

... and they think they have a right to legislate for us in the UK, courtesy of being part of the EU !! High time we were shot of such interference in our affairs.

You say the Conservatives don't put British interests first. I disagree ... some Conservatives definitely do .. Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith .. two stellar examples for you of Conservatives who do. There are, of course, other such examples. Though .. Cameron could be argued, through his scaremongering tactics, to be putting the EU before all else,namely, FOREIGN interests .. so maybe you've a point of sorts.

Don't bore me with talk of the Conservatives 'trying to destroy the NHS'. Such claims were made decades ago, yet the NHS not only still exists, but dominates our healthcare. These claims are mere Leftie rot.

... OK. Your last posting was an attack on the Conservatives. I must ask you yet again what agenda you're following. Since you won't even admit to your own nationality (!) ... and since you're disparaging of our own Party in Government, can I safely conclude that yours is definitely a hostile agenda .. this accounting for your many, persistently, pro-EU arguments ????

The south of Wales is far more Anglosized than the north of Wales. Now, I don't know where abouts you live, but I also know that many in Scotland hate the English political system based in London far more than the Welsh (the Welsh with the Assembly but the Scots with the Parliament, for example, shows that the Scots are far more independent.)

The point I'm making again, is, the Scots and Catholics in Northern Ireland, and even some Welsh, might feel the same about Westminster as you do Brussels.

Do you think Boris Johnson is putting the UK first? I think he's putting himself first. With this whole EU campaign, he's gunning for the top job, PM. This is what it's about for him. Ian Duncan Smith, yeah, maybe he's got much more integrity than many other politicians.

However the Tories in general don't, and Cameron's still going to be PM.

The NHS still exists. The Tories aren't trying to destroy the NHS so much that people vote them out. They must remember 1997 and getting their arses handed to them on a plate, and the state the NHS was in. Do you remember the MRSA (I think that's what it was called) problem in hospitals that was as a result of neglect in hospitals for so long.

What the Tories want is a private system like the US. It gives future Tory donors lots of opportunities to make money out of a system that is totally unnecessary. So they're going for the slow disintegration of the NHS, to meet their own needs, make healthcare more expensive, more private, more in line with their own ways of making profit.

This isn't the place here for such a large discussion about this, but I can see it's happening.

 

[frigidweirdo]

I believe Britain has nothing to worry about concerning possible EU retaliation for their leaving. Simply because ordinary French and German citizens are watching crefully and, if Britain succeeds, they're gone too. There will be no bureaucracy left to fuck thing up.

I doubt it.

The EU leaders like Tusk saying a UK exit could lead to the break up of the EU just makes people more likely to vote for an exit, simply because they like the thought of being important.

Perhaps we're just completely fed up with all the ridiculous 'doom and gloom' stuff, interwoven with threats and other scaremongering ploys ? Perhaps we see how shabby the scaremongering tactics truly are, and we wonder at the mentality that would stoop to it all ?

And perhaps we dare to think we have a right to run our own affairs, free of the shabby disreputability (clearly illustrated) of the political figures that oppose us in this ?

No, I doubt it's being fed up with doom and gloom, it's more just another reason to moan and groan. What will people do if the UK leaves the EU? What will they then moan about? And what will they find to get hope from, if the only hope they had went out of the window and disintegrated into a major problem, a dwindling pound, a dwindling employment rate, more expensive holidays and foreign products, etc etc. Oh, right, yeah, they'll be able to moan and groan about all of that.

Yeah, you go run your own affairs, with an undemocratic upper house, a government that's destroying things and doesn't care about the normal people, and then realize that NOTHING will change, other than you'll be poorer.