Bush and Officials Lied leading up to Iraq war

[maineman]

Its is IMPOSSIBLE to convey a false impression by stating what you perceive as the truth....
ex. You are led to believe there is a very tall person in a room....you see 5 people in the room, all under 5 ft. tall...so you, being 6 ft. tall state, "THEIR IS NO DOUBT I AM THE TALLEST PERSON IN THESE ROOM".....sadly you missed the other person in the room that is 7 ft. tall....did you lie.....certainly not.....

It matters not if your statement is
"I am the tallest in the room",
"I have no doubt, I am the tallest in the room", or
"there is no doubt, I am the tallest in the room"......

or any variation of it....that was YOUR belief when you made the statement..

You are mistakin' ...not lying.....

fortunately for the world, individuals do not get to independently recreate the rules of grammar and vocabulary. And until they do, the phrase "I have no doubt" will always have a different meaning than the phrase "there is no doubt".

too bad for you... you should create a country called Alphaland and create your own elastic language...until then, you're stuck with English.

and how could Bush possibly "perceive" that there was no doubt when he was provided numerous statements that contained doubt? lol

 

[maineman]

Definition number 2 isn't directed toward a statement. Definition #1 is.

no. #1 is SPECIFICALLY directed towards a statement. definition#2 can include non-verbal lies, but does not EXCLUDE verbal ones.

 

[Steerpike]

no. #1 is SPECIFICALLY directed towards a statement. definition#2 can include non-verbal lies, but does not EXCLUDE verbal ones.

Fair enough.

But let me ask you this - when you see a Bush Lied sticker, or when someone says "Bush lied" do you think the majority of them are using definition 1 or 2? Words, after all, are meant to convey the meaning of the speaker. We should adopt the meaning that the speaker intends to apply.

Most of the people I hear who make the Bush lied argument believe that he subjectively knew he was lying at the time. That's fine by me, but that requires a different level of proof than number 2.

 

[Alpha1]

Its is IMPOSSIBLE to convey a false impression by stating what you perceive as the truth....
ex. You are led to believe there is a very tall person in a room....you see 5 people in the room, all under 5 ft. tall...so you, being 6 ft. tall state, "THEIR IS NO DOUBT I AM THE TALLEST PERSON IN THESE ROOM".....sadly you missed the other person in the room that is 7 ft. tall....did you lie.....certainly not.....

It matters not if your statement is
"I am the tallest in the room",
"I have no doubt, I am the tallest in the room", or
"there is no doubt, I am the tallest in the room"......

or any variation of it....that was YOUR belief when you made the statement..

You are mistakin' ...not lying.....

The above explanation proves you wrong....

It matters not if your statement is
"I am the tallest in the room",
"I have no doubt, I am the tallest in the room", or
"there is no doubt, I am the tallest in the room"......

or any variation of it....that was YOUR belief when you made the statement..
ALL THESE STATEMENTS CONVEY THE SAME MEANING......
and no amount of dingbat english from Maine will change that....

 

[maineman]

The above explanation proves you wrong....

It matters not if your statement is
"I am the tallest in the room",
"I have no doubt, I am the tallest in the room", or
"there is no doubt, I am the tallest in the room"......

or any variation of it....that was YOUR belief when you made the statement..
ALL THESE STATEMENTS CONVEY THE SAME MEANING......
and no amount of dingbat english from Maine will change that....

again...if someone had told you there was possibly someone taller, then your statement of "there is not doubt, I am the tallest in the room" would have been a lie. Bush was made aware of degrees of doubt. To then turn around and deny that doubt existed was a lie.

 

[maineman]

Fair enough.

But let me ask you this - when you see a Bush Lied sticker, or when someone says "Bush lied" do you think the majority of them are using definition 1 or 2? Words, after all, are meant to convey the meaning of the speaker. We should adopt the meaning that the speaker intends to apply.

Most of the people I hear who make the Bush lied argument believe that he subjectively knew he was lying at the time. That's fine by me, but that requires a different level of proof than number 2.

I am aware that there are wacky lefties who blame Bush for anything and everything and endow him with some form of profoundly evil genius. I do not. If others think he lied using definition #1, I would disagree with them.

I have always and only thought he lied using the second definition. But I think that it was critical to gain as much public support as possible for him to make the case for Saddam's WMD stockpiles as ironclad as possible... and in so doing, he created the false impression of absolute certainty. It worked, but it still was a lie.

 

[Alpha1]

You may be as tenacious as a pit bull.....but sadly not quite as smart as one...

The only lie here is the one you've been obsessed with for the last few days.....the average IQ of the fleet must have risen dramatically since they no longer have to include you....

 

[maineman]

You may be as tenacious as a pit bull.....but sadly not quite as smart as one...

The only lie here is the one you've been obsessed with for the last few days.....the average IQ of the fleet must have risen dramatically since they no longer have to include you....

and I am not smart because a fucking moron like YOU says so?

give me a fucking break. If someone had come up to you and said, "Alpha, there may be someone in the room who is taller than you...we're not entirely sure...the room is crowded...there have been some reports that maybe there is a guy sitting down that, once he stands up, might be taller than you...." if someone had told you that and you STILL turned around and pronounced "there is no doubt that I am the tallest guy in the room", are you really saying that, given the doubts presented to you, that that statement would not be a lie?

From my perspective you are WAY too fucking dumb to even MAKE it INTO the fleet.

 

[Shogun]

Fair enough.

But let me ask you this - when you see a Bush Lied sticker, or when someone says "Bush lied" do you think the majority of them are using definition 1 or 2? Words, after all, are meant to convey the meaning of the speaker. We should adopt the meaning that the speaker intends to apply.

Most of the people I hear who make the Bush lied argument believe that he subjectively knew he was lying at the time. That's fine by me, but that requires a different level of proof than number 2.

I would say that the Plame witch hunt was pretty indicative that Bush had motive to squash anything that suggested that, in fact, Saddam may not have had WMDs. Aluminuim tubes and yellow cake were part of the original plea for war as was insisting that Saddam had WMDs and was an immediate threat. Plame ate the backlash of trying to convey the truth about Bush's Nigerian claims. This conveys to me that his march to the war, on the basis of WMDs, was not only a blatant lie but indicates actual effort to brush off information that, at the VERY least, provided the kind of DOUBT that he clearly wasn't interested in. Would i be any less guilty of Fraud if I purposefully made every effort to DISBELIEVE in the actual shoreline or Arizona when selling you beach front property?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I would say that the Plame witch hunt was pretty indicative that Bush had motive to squash anything that suggested that, in fact, Saddam may not have had WMDs. Aluminuim tubes and yellow cake were part of the original plea for war as was insisting that Saddam had WMDs and was an immediate threat. Plame ate the backlash of trying to convey the truth about Bush's Nigerian claims. This conveys to me that his march to the war, on the basis of WMDs, was not only a blatant lie but indicates actual effort to brush off information that, at the VERY least, provided the kind of DOUBT that he clearly wasn't interested in. Would i be any less guilty of Fraud if I purposefully made every effort to DISBELIEVE in the actual shoreline or Arizona when selling you beach front property?

Except for the fact Bush never claimed Iraq was an imminent or immediant threat.

 

[ReillyT]

Except for the fact Bush never claimed Iraq was an imminent or immediant threat.

Taking into account not just Bush, but also the White House in general:

On October 2, Bush described Iraq as “a threat of unique urgency” (AP, 10/2/02).

Testifying before Congress (AP, 9/18/02), Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld added urgency: “No terrorist state poses a greater and more immediate threat to the security of our people and the stability of the world than the regime of Saddam Hussein in Iraq.”

For instance, speaking to the Veterans of Foreign Wars in 2002 (Associated Press, 8/26/02; State Department, 8/26/02), Vice President Dick Cheney described Iraq as “a mortal threat” and “as grave a threat as can be imagined.” “Simply stated,” Cheney told the vets, “there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction. There is no doubt he is amassing them to use against our friends, against our allies and against us.” Furthermore, Cheney warned, “Many of us are convinced that Saddam will acquire nuclear weapons fairly soon.”

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1173

If all one is concerned about is the specific verbiage, as if the words "imminent threat" have a talismanic, mystical quality, then I suppose you are correct. If however, we are willing to examine statements which have the same meaning, regardless of the use of the word "imminent," then I must disagree.

 

[nibor]

It's amazing to me "that the whitehouse in general" and specifically it's behind the scenes trash advisors don't get called out for a good old time BLANKET PARTY.........................

 

[Shogun]

Taking into account not just Bush, but also the White House in general:
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=1173
If all one is concerned about is the specific verbiage, as if the words "imminent threat" have a talismanic, mystical quality, then I suppose you are correct. If however, we are willing to examine statements which have the same meaning, regardless of the use of the word "imminent," then I must disagree.

Truly, it's litigious to a degree that would make Johny Cochrane crack a smile while burning in hell.

How many times did someone attached with the Bush admin mention mushroom clouds? Anthrax? Chem and Bio weapons? Mobile chem labs?

laughable.



Then again, who the hell takes RGS serious enough to give a fuck about his eternal fanboi bush love?

 

[nibor]

Truly, it's litigious to a degree that would make Johny Cochrane crack a smile while burning in hell.

How many times did someone attached with the Bush admin mention mushroom clouds? Anthrax? Chem and Bio weapons? Mobile chem labs?

laughable.



Then again, who the hell takes RGS serious enough to give a fuck about his eternal fanboi bush love?

I guess it's not prudent to actually say THE NAMES of those responsible (someone attached) for most if not all the bad judgement and decisions surounding all of this.....................because of the back flips it will create huh?

 

[Alpha1]

and I am not smart because a fucking moron like YOU says so?

give me a fucking break. If someone had come up to you and said, "Alpha, there may be someone in the room who is taller than you...we're not entirely sure...the room is crowded...there have been some reports that maybe there is a guy sitting down that, once he stands up, might be taller than you...."

What you seem to be too stupid to grasp is, after that someone tells me
"Alpha, there may be someone in the room who is taller than you...we're not entirely sure...the room is crowded...there have been some reports that maybe there is a guy sitting down that, once he stands up, might be taller than you...."...
I personally look the place over, examine what I see, consider what this other guy said and reach my own conclusion after careful contemplation and consideration, I come to the conclusion that their is no one in the room taller than me ...and I make that belief known....."there is no doubt I am the tallest in the room".....
I may be right, or I may be wrong....be that is my honest belief , and personal
consideration.....

if someone had told you that and you STILL turned around and pronounced "there is no doubt that I am the tallest guy in the room", are you really saying that, given the doubts presented to you, that that statement would not be a lie?
You are obsessed with the erroneous conclusion that I am not entitled to make my own decision on the matter, come to my own conclusions, arrive at my own belief...
You seem to think that someone elses doubt supercedes my lack of doubt...
Well, you are wrong on that from the get go.....If my belief clashes with your belief, tough shit....MY BELIEF takes precedence....and as I speak of that belief, it CAN'T be called a lie...wrong, yes..but not a lie..

From my perspective you are WAY too fucking dumb to even MAKE it INTO the fleet.

000

 

[mattskramer]

I’m surprised that this debate has gone on for so long. The question is so simple.

True or False:

• 
  1. Bush knew that somewhere, out there in the world, existed at lest a tiny bit of doubt that Saddam had WMD.

• 2. At about the same time that he knew this, Bush said that there is no doubt that Saddam had WMD.

If the answer to each of these two statements is true, then Bush lied.

Come on, people. It is as simple as that.

 

[maineman]

Alpha:

Of course you are entitled to come to your own conclusions. If you do, the correct way to express that is to say:

"Others have some doubts about my height being preeminent in this room, but I personally have none." That clearly and unambiguously presents the fact that the statement of your height being the greatest is your opinion and not necessarily held by others.

The incorrect way is to say that "there is no doubt that I am the tallest in the room." Others who do not have the benefit of having heard the reports about possible taller men would take that statement as an unambiguous statement of fact, and not merely your opinion.

Bush made a similar mistake and asked Americans to bet their son's lives on it. He created a false impression of absolute certainty. That was a lie.

Whine all you want, the FACT is: There is no doubt that Saddam has stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction" is a statement of fact - grammatically. It is different in meaning to "I personally have no doubt that Saddam has stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction" which is not a statement of fact, but the expression of an opinion.

Oh, and what the fuck does 000 mean in that context? is it your ASVAB score?

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Alpha:

Of course you are entitled to come to your own conclusions. If you do, the correct way to express that is to say:

"Others have some doubts about my height being preeminent in this room, but I personally have none." That clearly and unambiguously presents the fact that the statement of your height being the greatest is your opinion and not necessarily held by others.

The incorrect way is to say that "there is no doubt that I am the tallest in the room." Others who do not have the benefit of having heard the reports about possible taller men would take that statement as an unambiguous statement of fact, and not merely your opinion.

Bush made a similar mistake and asked Americans to bet their son's lives on it. He created a false impression of absolute certainty. That was a lie.

Whine all you want, the FACT is: There is no doubt that Saddam has stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction" is a statement of fact - grammatically. It is different in meaning to "I personally have no doubt that Saddam has stockpiles of Weapons of Mass Destruction" which is not a statement of fact, but the expression of an opinion.

Oh, and what the fuck does 000 mean in that context? is it your ASVAB score?

And there we have it, According to Maineman , unless someone says what HE thinks they should say, they are liars. Well unless they are democrats then Maineman has no problem deciding they were just mistaken.

 

[Shogun]

What you seem to be too stupid to grasp is, after that someone tells me
"Alpha, there may be someone in the room who is taller than you...we're not entirely sure...the room is crowded...there have been some reports that maybe there is a guy sitting down that, once he stands up, might be taller than you...."...
I personally look the place over, examine what I see, consider what this other guy said and reach my own conclusion after careful contemplation and consideration, I come to the conclusion that their is no one in the room taller than me ...and I make that belief known....."there is no doubt I am the tallest in the room".....
I may be right, or I may be wrong....be that is my honest belief , and personal
consideration.....


And, if the statements made by Bush reflected, in any way, every bolded MAYBE in your silly little hypothetical then perhaps you'd have a point.

Did Bush suggest that there MIGHT BE WMDs? Did he consider that, like your stupid example, that he may not have the entire picture in order to make such a DEFINITE statement? Did he suggest that HIS SOURCES indicated that there MIGHT BE room for error? no. On all counts. He conveyed that Iraq WAS a threat and WAS capable of damage to the US and he had NO DOUBT, after having the benefit of reviewing his information no less, that there were WMDs.


By all means, have your stupid opinoin; this is America. The rest of us will do the same regardless of how you try to writhe out from under the hindsight of those PHANTOM EMDs and your fanboi crush on Bush.

 

[Shogun]

And there we have it, According to Maineman , unless someone says what HE thinks they should say, they are liars. Well unless they are democrats then Maineman has no problem deciding they were just mistaken.

Gosh, assuming that a president of the greatest nation on earth was telling the truth by suggesting that there was NO DOUBT about WMDs in iraq.. how RIDICULOUS!



I can't even begin to describe how fun it is to watch you suckers try and yank that hook, line and sinker out of your gullet this side of the 04 election.