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I thought this was an open forum for discussion. I have respect for many elements of all religions and also see fault in many so the discussion interests me. I always keep an open mind so please don't assume to know my motives based on two simple posts. I have experience with the Catholic religion and many friends and family still actively part of it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder
I can respect that. Thanks for the explanation... With that said I'm probably not the best to partake In this discussion as my views are more challenging. Best of luck with your journeySlade3200, I was not trying to insult you, I was trying to keep this thread on focus. I know that with guno around, there will be amusing diversions, but I would like for at least the Christians to stay on track. There is a lot Catholicism has to offer the world. The religion has probably more to offer than most non-Catholics appreciate.
There is a reason the Catholic Church is the only major religion which has a structure, definite leadership, and comprehensive theology that has lasted more than 2000 years. And the Catholic Church is also the largest Church in membership, and it is rapidly growing, especially in Africa and Asia. Non-Catholics have the wrong idea that Catholicism is in decline, but that is only true in Europe, which has been in spiritual crisis for hundreds of years.
When I was a teenager, I did not appreciate my Catholic faith as I should, and up until recently, I know I have been deficient in my faith life. I do not make it a regular habit to pray, I do not attend Mass as I should, and sometimes I don't even make it on Christmas or Easter. But the Church is drawing me in, stronger and stronger as I get older and the end of my life approaches like a door that I must soon go beyond. I fear what I will see there if I continue my life of spiritual negligence. I am not a bad or sinful man, but faith is required, and my faith is not as strong as it should be. Sharing my faith on this forum has always been my effort to strengthen my faith in my own life.
I know there will be those who will amuse themselves on this thread, but I'm going to ignore these diversions, and I hope the rest of us can have a faith discussion that enriches all of us. I'm not trying to convert anyone here, I'm just trying to share what I know.
The title and the OP led me to believe that the poster had confusion about the sacramental elements of the religion. I was providing a general explanation from my experience and point of view. He just clarified his intent and I understand that we were going going down two different paths. I'll leave you all to delv further into this as I bring a dubious viewpoint which is counterproductive to the intended discussion.I thought this was an open forum for discussion. I have respect for many elements of all religions and also see fault in many so the discussion interests me. I always keep an open mind so please don't assume to know my motives based on two simple posts. I have experience with the Catholic religion and many friends and family still actively part of it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder
It is a forum open for discussion. As I explained earlier, my remarks weren't directed at you (or anyone) specifically. I don't know your motives, and I did not say I did. Re-reading your first post, I still don't see anything for us to discuss. Do you? If so, perhaps presenting one specific issue better might start us out.
Slade3200, you are exactly the person I am trying to reach, a Catholic who is lost or confused just as I am. I am not a good Catholic at this stage in my life, and I'm trying to improve. If you are seeking answers, then please continue to participate because I am also seeking answers, and we could seek them together.The title and the OP led me to believe that the poster had confusion about the sacramental elements of the religion. I was providing a general explanation from my experience and point of view. He just clarified his intent and I understand that we were going going down two different paths. I'll leave you all to delv further into this as I bring a dubious viewpoint which is counterproductive to the intended discussion.I thought this was an open forum for discussion. I have respect for many elements of all religions and also see fault in many so the discussion interests me. I always keep an open mind so please don't assume to know my motives based on two simple posts. I have experience with the Catholic religion and many friends and family still actively part of it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder
It is a forum open for discussion. As I explained earlier, my remarks weren't directed at you (or anyone) specifically. I don't know your motives, and I did not say I did. Re-reading your first post, I still don't see anything for us to discuss. Do you? If so, perhaps presenting one specific issue better might start us out.
I do appreciate the invitation and am always happy to engage in conversation, however, I am a bit jaded at the Catholic religion. I don't want to be counter productive to your search. The best advise that I can give is to learn to "succumb to a higher power" whatever that may be. If the Catholic faith rings a bell for you then go with it and find your answers. For some people, analytical types, searching for every answer can be detrimental, as there will always be an unknown element and your faith in the unknown is what you need to lean on. For myself, the Catholic faith nor any organized religion rang true. I find truth in all religions and also in life... Truth, as I stated before, is in the eye of the beholder.Slade3200, you are exactly the person I am trying to reach, a Catholic who is lost or confused just as I am. I am not a good Catholic at this stage in my life, and I'm trying to improve. If you are seeking answers, then please continue to participate because I am also seeking answers, and we could seek them together.The title and the OP led me to believe that the poster had confusion about the sacramental elements of the religion. I was providing a general explanation from my experience and point of view. He just clarified his intent and I understand that we were going going down two different paths. I'll leave you all to delv further into this as I bring a dubious viewpoint which is counterproductive to the intended discussion.I thought this was an open forum for discussion. I have respect for many elements of all religions and also see fault in many so the discussion interests me. I always keep an open mind so please don't assume to know my motives based on two simple posts. I have experience with the Catholic religion and many friends and family still actively part of it. Truth is in the eye of the beholder
It is a forum open for discussion. As I explained earlier, my remarks weren't directed at you (or anyone) specifically. I don't know your motives, and I did not say I did. Re-reading your first post, I still don't see anything for us to discuss. Do you? If so, perhaps presenting one specific issue better might start us out.
Catholicism is a very complicated religion which is why the Church actually doesn't encourage laymen to try to teach it to non-Catholics. They are afraid we will get it wrong, and do more harm than good.
So the job of the Catholic layman is
to spread the Good News by our example, by our deeds, and "they will know we are Christian by our love." Which is well and good, and I think for most Catholics, that is good advice.
But I am going to try to teach Catholicism anyway, because I think maybe I can handle the task.
I have taken a course in canon law,
I have perused the Catholic Bible
and know it well, and I have read the Catholic Catechism, or can find what I need out of it.
So here's a beginning:
The center of the Catholic Church, the thing that is above all things, the reason the Catholic Church exists, is to celebrate the Mass.
And the center of the Mass is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Delivery of the Sacrament of the Eucharist to the world's one billion Catholics is the most important thing the Catholic Church does in this world.
Does that seem strange to you?
Here is the source:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of the Eucharist
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
"Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
"Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John
I am the living bread that came down from heaven; whoever eats this bread will live forever; and the bread that I will give is my flesh for the life of the world.
Here is where bread, a metaphor for teaching from heaven, words from God, became flesh, a metaphor for the teaching of Jesus, teaching that he received from God like bread from heaven.
Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
If you do not receive his teaching (eat his flesh) about the figurative nature of the words and hidden subjects of the law, and do it, (drink his blood) you cannot have the life promised for obedience to the law in you.
"Does this shock you? What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Here Jesus explains that flesh is a metaphor for words, teaching.
"Do you also want to leave?" Simon Peter answered him, "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life." John
Here the disciples confirmed their belief in his explanation , that his teaching, his words, are what give life.
Nothing in what you posted has anything to do with worshiping and eating a matzo at mass as if it was a god.
The only mysterious thing around here is why you aren't aware that your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.
A few things to consider:
1. Metaphors/words are eternal life? Or is it Jesus himself who gives eternal life? (Does Jesus offer metaphors, or does he offer himself?)
2. It was five hundred years (twenty generations) before there was ever a question about the bread and wine perhaps not becoming the body and blood of our Lord.
3. Would so many disciples have left Jesus over a metaphor?
4. Have you considered your attacks on Catholic belief that Jesus meant precisely what he said comes across as being desperate to prove that Catholics do not have the greater faith in Jesus and his teachings, they are merely foolish? Shrug. Scripture tells us God chooses the foolish....
Catholicism is a very complicated religion which is why the Church actually doesn't encourage laymen to try to teach it to non-Catholics. They are afraid we will get it wrong, and do more harm than good.
So the job of the Catholic layman is to spread the Good News by our example, by our deeds, and "they will know we are Christian by our love." Which is well and good, and I think for most Catholics, that is good advice.
So here's a beginning:
The center of the Catholic Church, the thing that is above all things, the reason the Catholic Church exists, is to celebrate the Mass.
And the center of the Mass is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Delivery of the Sacrament of the Eucharist to the world's one billion Catholics is the most important thing the Catholic Church does in this world.
Does that seem strange to you?
It sounds like you and your family either did not get a good education regarding Transubstantiation or chose not to embrace a foundational teaching of the Church. Meanwhile, today, many a Catholic will spend time in Eucharistic adoration because they believe Christ is truly present in the Eucharist.The catholic religion is an institution that binds it's people by being the intermediary between God and the individual. The church is gods house, the priest is gods messenger and representative that is here to guide and teach. It's foundation is based in sacraments, baptism, communion, confession, etc. and it's people live and worship through "works", meaning following the doctrine and rituals as directed by the church. Basically, follow the rules... Go to church, receive the sacraments, take communion, confess your sins, and do your penance. Do these things and you will be guided to heaven. Don't do them and spend eternity in hell. Fear God! This message used to be pushed very hard as the church was a very powerful and political part of society. This God fearing message was made to scare people And discourage questioning or doubt... It was a way to keep their power and control. There was much corruption that came from this.Catholicism is a very complicated religion which is why the Church actually doesn't encourage laymen to try to teach it to non-Catholics. They are afraid we will get it wrong, and do more harm than good.
So the job of the Catholic layman is to spread the Good News by our example, by our deeds, and "they will know we are Christian by our love." Which is well and good, and I think for most Catholics, that is good advice.
But I am going to try to teach Catholicism anyway, because I think maybe I can handle the task. I have taken a course in canon law, I have perused the Catholic Bible and know it well, and I have read the Catholic Catechism, or can find what I need out of it.
So here's a beginning:
The center of the Catholic Church, the thing that is above all things, the reason the Catholic Church exists, is to celebrate the Mass.
And the center of the Mass is the Sacrament of the Eucharist. Delivery of the Sacrament of the Eucharist to the world's one billion Catholics is the most important thing the Catholic Church does in this world.
Does that seem strange to you?
Here is the source:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The sacrament of the Eucharist
Through a a lot of this crap and corruption there are virtuous elements of the faith and a truly beautiful message. One that other denominations teach in their own way. A message that most other religions reach in there own way. Whether you accept it as truth or as good or bad, right or wrong is entirely up to you
Never felt bound
I was hoping this would be a dialogue, with people responding to what I posted, and not striking out in random directions.
I posted about the Eucharist, let's talk about that. What is the Eucharist? It is the Body and Blood of Christ. This is not a symbol, it is the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine.
This is the process called transubstantiation. When the priest says the words of concencration, the bread and wine transform into the Body and Blood of Christ. Only the appearance of bread and wine remain.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist
That is what they say, they did believe it in the old days, but I know of no RC's who believe it actually turns into the body and blood of Christ. My family never did and every one was an altar boy, even my alter boy nephews never did. It was a symbolic of receiving the spirit of Christ, but more special than a cracker some take at other churches. Transubstantiation was never taught fully that I remember, the nuns sort of just skimmed over it.
Haha, Somebody scribbled on the back of one of the seats on the short bus... WWJD... Not sure what it means but perhaps it applies to how your faith teaches you to act towards others.Learning the similarities and differences among the Anglican and Episcopalian sects re 'official' Catholicism would be interesting for some also, and what distinguishes them as 'Protestant'.
And ignore the silly kids posting from the short busses who make a point of disrupting any attempt at real discussions in this forum; they're simply sick giggly little gimps with no education or manners, so just carry on as if they don't exist; their parents do.
the place that I will choose to place My Name. That is referring to YeruShalem because Sifri identifies the place which Hashem will choose
A few things to consider:
1. Metaphors/words are eternal life? Or is it Jesus himself who gives eternal life? (Does Jesus offer metaphors, or does he offer himself?)
The promised reward for obedience to the law is life. Jesus was teaching that the words in the law were figurative and the subjects hidden and without his teaching, eating his flesh, one cannot fulfill the laws demands nor receive the eternal life promised for obedience.
2. It was five hundred years (twenty generations) before there was ever a question about the bread and wine perhaps not becoming the body and blood of our Lord.
That is not true at all. What I am saying is exactly what tertullian said,
Auditu devorandus est, intellectu ruminamlus, et fide digerendus”: “ Christ by hearing must be devoured, by understanding must be chewed, and by faith must be digested.
And Chrysostom : "This is that great bread that feeds not the body but the mind"
3. Would so many disciples have left Jesus over a metaphor?
Yes. They questioned how he could give his flesh to eat. They took it literally without understanding the implications or not so subtle reference to Kosher law and without understanding his meaning it was more than any rational person could stomach.
4. Have you considered your attacks on Catholic belief that Jesus meant precisely what he said comes across as being desperate to prove that Catholics do not have the greater faith in Jesus and his teachings, they are merely foolish? Shrug. Scripture tells us God chooses the foolish....
First of all. I am not attacking anyone. What I have revealed is for your edification.
What comes across as desperate is you trying to defend the indefensible and attempting to deny the irrefutable without any inkling that your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.
A few things to consider:
1. Metaphors/words are eternal life? Or is it Jesus himself who gives eternal life? (Does Jesus offer metaphors, or does he offer himself?)
The promised reward for obedience to the law is life. Jesus was teaching that the words in the law were figurative and the subjects hidden and without his teaching, eating his flesh, one cannot fulfill the laws demands nor receive the eternal life promised for obedience.
2. It was five hundred years (twenty generations) before there was ever a question about the bread and wine perhaps not becoming the body and blood of our Lord.
That is not true at all. What I am saying is exactly what tertullian said,
Auditu devorandus est, intellectu ruminamlus, et fide digerendus”: “ Christ by hearing must be devoured, by understanding must be chewed, and by faith must be digested.
And Chrysostom : "This is that great bread that feeds not the body but the mind"
3. Would so many disciples have left Jesus over a metaphor?
Yes. They questioned how he could give his flesh to eat. They took it literally without understanding the implications or not so subtle reference to Kosher law and without understanding his meaning it was more than any rational person could stomach.
4. Have you considered your attacks on Catholic belief that Jesus meant precisely what he said comes across as being desperate to prove that Catholics do not have the greater faith in Jesus and his teachings, they are merely foolish? Shrug. Scripture tells us God chooses the foolish....
First of all. I am not attacking anyone. What I have revealed is for your edification.
What comes across as desperate is you trying to defend the indefensible and attempting to deny the irrefutable without any inkling that your sin is as obvious as a white boulder in the middle of a plowed field.
1. Read what Tertullian and Chrystendom said in addition. They believed.
2. They took it literally, and more telling, Jesus didn't say, "Wait a minute, it was a metaphor!"
3. I know and understand my beliefs. You don't. Speaking of edifying, you have no wish for me to edify you on Catholic beliefs, do you? So why don't we each speak about our own beliefs and let others speak of their own without. No one needs or benefits from sneering and insulting phrases on alternate beliefs.
