Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

[Coyote]

Let's put the Muslim population in the right perspective. www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf

Meanwhile, why are you still blabbering about child marriages, Miss Osomir (especially since you are so hard at work at the State Department earning your salary). Your expertise should also cover honor killings so tell us where they are most prevalent. After all, there are young women being honor killed among the Muslim population for supposedly putting a stain on the family's reputation. I would imagine Miss Osomir has no problems with the Muslims carrying signs saying that Hitler should have finished the job or one man's sign saying Kill the Juice (meaning Jews). She just doesn't want anyone to say anything negative about Islam (I wonder why) even though the sad thing is that many people who follow this faith are even murdering each other if you are not of the right sect. Sad that the Ahmadi Muslims say they only feel safe here in America.

Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.

Why is this thread dragging on and on? We know that there are child marriages and that little girls die on their wedding night, and we all know that there are little girls who die during pregnancy because their young bodies can't handle it.

Because it is a good discussion, and it's a serious issue worth discussing. Much more so, say, then marvelous inventions by Israel or Judaization of America or Justin Beiber.

We also know that even when the family moves to a civilized country such as England, young girls are still forced into marriages.

It's not widespread, but yes, and it's usually by parents who are themselves immigrants, the more generations the less you see it.

As far as Hitler is concerned, your friend Miss Osomir is busy calling anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted, and I was just trying to show that the Muslims are very bigoted too as evidenced by some of the signs they carry at their protests.

I have not seen Osomir call "anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted" - I have seen some good contributions to the issue and personal attacks against him in return.

I do however see the anti-Islamic generalizations being used that is very similar to anti-semitism. Thing is - when it's directed against Jews, we call it what it is: anti-semitism. When it's directed against Muslims....it appears to be acceptable.

Sure some Muslims are bigoted. Just like any human group and religion in the world. Xenophobia is hardwired. But come on...let's not drag this down into a Nazi/Hitler mudfest. I think the issue of child brides is a good one with out Hitler references.

In fact, not only are they bigoted against the Jews, but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other sects of Muslims.

You describe SOME Muslims and you describe SOME Christians, Hindus and Buddhists in that statement. Why do you choose to only single out Muslims?

Please don't try to deny the truth, especially when the blood is still running down the streets in Iraq due to the spate of car bombings of one sect against another this past weekend.

What truth am I supposed to be denying? That all Islam is a religion of hateful violent bigots?

 

[Coyote]

UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.

No, nothing to do with Islam. Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

 

[Roudy]

What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.

There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.

When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.

You know...you have a good point there. The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage. So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....

That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.

 

[Roudy]

UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.

No, nothing to do with Islam. Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

It says Guinea is 63 Muslim. And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians. I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims. What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire.

I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them. And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.

 

[Esmeralda]

UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.

No, nothing to do with Islam. Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

Poverty and lack of education. That's what it says in the site I read. The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.

 

[Coyote]

UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.

No, nothing to do with Islam. Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

It says Guinea is 63 Muslim.

You're right, I was looking at Guinea-Bissau, wrong place.

And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians. I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims. What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire.

More common, but not that much more common. I do agree the religion has an influence but I strongly disagree with it being the "number one cause". Over and over, the primary causes in the worst countries - and this was specifically brought up in Yemen are poverty, instability and war, weak central governments. The primary causes in Muslim countries are the same as in non-Muslim countries because many of these countries exist side by side in the same regions with similar cultures and conditions despite different religions.

I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them. And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.

It's complex because SOME Muslims cite that, and SOME Muslims feel child marriage is acceptable. At the same time there are plenty of Muslims who disagree with that interpretation of Islam and of Aisha's age (in fact, the sources I used to support her age as older then you claim are from those). The fact that child marriage is not ubiquitously condoned in all Muslim countries.

 

[Coyote]

There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.

When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.

You know...you have a good point there. The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage. So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....

That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.

Here's another unpleasant tidbit. India is a culture that separates the sexes, prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women. Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence. And, of course, child marriages. Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.

 

[Roudy]

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

It says Guinea is 63 Muslim.

You're right, I was looking at Guinea-Bissau, wrong place.

And if you delve into it, you will see the practice is more common among the Muslims than Christians. I'm not saying there aren't other causes among non Muslims. What I am saying is Islam is the number one cause among Muslims. You add religion to the other causes, and that's why it's most prevalent among Muslims. It's like adding gasoline to a fire.

More common, but not that much more common. I do agree the religion has an influence but I strongly disagree with it being the "number one cause". Over and over, the primary causes in the worst countries - and this was specifically brought up in Yemen are poverty, instability and war, weak central governments. The primary causes in Muslim countries are the same as in non-Muslim countries because many of these countries exist side by side in the same regions with similar cultures and conditions despite different religions.

I don't understand why this is so complex, Muslims themselves even cite Mohammad's (the perfect human being) marriage to Aisha as the reason it is acceptable for them. And the phenomenon is even legalized in some Muslim nations, and those that it isn't, the religious court often over turns the civil, because it is sanctioned by Islam.

It's complex because SOME Muslims cite that, and SOME Muslims feel child marriage is acceptable. At the same time there are plenty of Muslims who disagree with that interpretation of Islam and of Aisha's age (in fact, the sources I used to support her age as older then you claim are from those). The fact that child marriage is not ubiquitously condoned in all Muslim countries.

As indicated earlier in the thread. The more secular a society, the less acceptable and therefore illegal these kids of practices. Unfortunately with Muslims, they are mostly very religious societies that believe in Islam and Shariah law above all else, even nationalism. While factors such as education and poverty are main contributors in non Muslim societies, the main contributor in Muslim societies is Islam, as Islam goes first.

 

[Hollie]

You are not being clever here; you're just being stupid. You completely miss the point of my post. You may list the stats from UNICEF, but you interpret them in a biased, bigoted way. UNICEF says nothing about Islam. And you continue to ignore the fact that there are many religions, not just Islam, that have the problem of child brides. You ARE completely transparent in your bigotry.

I am not DEFENDING Islam. I am after one thing only: truth and fairness. This thread was posted purportedly to discuss the problem of child brides but went directly to attacking Islam for having this problem and has not mentioned any other religion or culture. I am against bigotry, not for any one religion.

Your angry, vicious, vitriolic and bitter prejudice makes you think anyone who tries to speak against bigotry when it concerns something about which you are bigoted is defending that one idea or thing you focus your bigotry on. What the person is actually doing is arguing against the bigot, not defending what your bigotry focuses on. You probably don't get the point I'm making. Your mind is warped, sad and pathetic. An ugly, black, wasteland full of decay and offal. Wallow in your hate, anger, stupidity, bigotry. Must be awful to be you. You're really beneath contempt.

Oh, and btw, I'M NOT INTERESTED IN THE ISSUE OF CHILD BRIDES??? Really? Who posted the site that discusses this issue in detail, w/o focusing on how bad one culture or another is? Me. And who failed to read all the detailed information they have there? YOU. You are not interested in the issue of child brides. You are only interested in bashing Islam.

What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.

There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.

When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.

It can only be described as a debilitating clinical condition that causes people to spend enormous amounts of time, effort and risk global ridicule in critiquing how it may or may not be be “islamically correct” for a woman to reveal a tuft of hair, an exposed ankle or even a bare forearm.

The sexually and emotionally insecure men of Islam are both obsessed with and terrified of sex beyond even the wildest imaginings of Westerners. The obsession is far from healthy and even further from objective reality. We frequently joke about men's preoccupation with sex and female body parts in the West, but the fascination with these things pales in comparison when you consider that men in the Moslem world are literally consumed by female sexuality and with their fear of it. It is ironic that both Moslem men and women are under the mistaken impression that Western society is over sexualized compared to them, when in fact, it is practically impossible to be more obsessed with sexual matters than they are in the Moslem world.

Consider for a moment a culture that would prefer to let young girls die in a burning building than to risk having them run out of said building not properly shrouded in their “islamically correct” uniforms; and tell me that such a society is less preoccupied with matters of sex than we are in the West.

Enormous effort is spent veiling women, dressing them in amorphous sacks, silencing them, reviling women, punishing them, controlling them, keeping them uneducated, -- in short, dehumanizing women in every way possible, all under the pretence of "protecting" them.

The women in these societies are brainwashed from birth into thinking that this cultural preoccupation somehow is necessary and that it "liberates" them in some bizarre manner.

 

[Sunni Man]

..........................................^^^^ Funny stuff......LOL ..

 

[Hossfly]

Since the topic is child marriages, not honor killings, not Hitler - that might explain why the discussion is about (EGAD) child marriages.

Why is this thread dragging on and on? We know that there are child marriages and that little girls die on their wedding night, and we all know that there are little girls who die during pregnancy because their young bodies can't handle it.

Because it is a good discussion, and it's a serious issue worth discussing. Much more so, say, then marvelous inventions by Israel or Judaization of America or Justin Beiber.



It's not widespread, but yes, and it's usually by parents who are themselves immigrants, the more generations the less you see it.



I have not seen Osomir call "anyone who speaks out against Islam bigoted" - I have seen some good contributions to the issue and personal attacks against him in return.

I do however see the anti-Islamic generalizations being used that is very similar to anti-semitism. Thing is - when it's directed against Jews, we call it what it is: anti-semitism. When it's directed against Muslims....it appears to be acceptable.

Sure some Muslims are bigoted. Just like any human group and religion in the world. Xenophobia is hardwired. But come on...let's not drag this down into a Nazi/Hitler mudfest. I think the issue of child brides is a good one with out Hitler references.

In fact, not only are they bigoted against the Jews, but also Christians, Hindus, Buddhists and other sects of Muslims.

You describe SOME Muslims and you describe SOME Christians, Hindus and Buddhists in that statement. Why do you choose to only single out Muslims?

Please don't try to deny the truth, especially when the blood is still running down the streets in Iraq due to the spate of car bombings of one sect against another this past weekend.

What truth am I supposed to be denying? That all Islam is a religion of hateful violent bigots?

I would think that the most important issue of the day is what is happening in Syria. The fact of underage brides who die on their wedding night or who die in pregnancy will be something that will go on and on. I am of the impression that no matter how long people are living in a civilized country, this will still happen, especially when the parents send the young girl to a country to marry some relative. As far as your friend Miss Osomir calling people bigoted who say something derogatory against Islam, if you have missed this you have your blinders on. And, if you are not aware of what is going on in Muslim countries with regard to people who are non Muslims and even Muslims of different sects (and this is not just a handful of Muslims showing bigotry, which also includes murder), I would say you also have you blinders on. However, who am I to tell you to take your blinders off if you feel comfortable with them on?

 

[Roudy]

UNICEF reports that the top five nations in the world with highest observed child marriage rates - Niger (75%), Chad (72%), Mali (71%), Bangladesh (64%), Guinea (63%) - are all Islamic majority countries.

No, nothing to do with Islam. Nothing at all.

Game, set, match.

From your Unicef report: ...include Niger – where the incidence of child marriage is a staggering 75 percent, Chad (72 per cent), Mali (71 per cent),Bangladesh (64 per cent), Guinea (63per cent), Central African Republic (61 per cent), Mozambique (56 per cent),
and Nepal (51 per cent).

Niger, Chad, Mali, and Bangladesh are Muslim Majority. Guinea is only about 38 percent Muslim, the majority is "animist". CAR and Mozambique are Christian. Nepal is Hindu.

If Islam is the primary cause - why do we see such a diversity in religions here?

What else is in common with those regions?

Poverty and lack of education. That's what it says in the site I read. The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.

Again, this is not a one size fits all. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels. In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region. Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.

Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.

More lipstick on the pig? LOL

 

[Roudy]

..........................................^^^^ Funny stuff......LOL ..

Yeah, it's both horrifying and comedic at the same time. But then again you're the one who said Muslim men in America should be allowed to have four wives, because that's what Shariah law says.

Would you like me repeat what else you said?

 

[Roudy]

You know...you have a good point there. The worst sexual exploitations seem to occur in the most socially repressive cultures and religious sects that demand celibacy or drastically restrict social interaction between males and females prior to marriage. So...you end up with a large number of frustrated testosterone infested young men....

That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.

Here's another unpleasant tidbit. India is a culture that separates the sexes, prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women. Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence. And, of course, child marriages. Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.

But in India it's cultural chauvinism, and not the religion, that is, unless you're talking about Indian Muslims, of which there are 300 million. In their case it's religion, economic, cultural, and educational.

 

[Roudy]

What is the breakdown on religions then? At a glance I would say the vast majority are Islamic countries, not that it matters because a Viagra induced boner has no religion.

There is no question, Islamic violence and terrorism certainly has a degree of sexual frustration as part of its causes.

When you combine the strict, repressive societies with a promise of unlimited sex with virgins in the Islamic afterlife, that boner can make you do some amazing things.

It can only be described as a debilitating clinical condition that causes people to spend enormous amounts of time, effort and risk global ridicule in critiquing how it may or may not be be “islamically correct” for a woman to reveal a tuft of hair, an exposed ankle or even a bare forearm.

The sexually and emotionally insecure men of Islam are both obsessed with and terrified of sex beyond even the wildest imaginings of Westerners. The obsession is far from healthy and even further from objective reality. We frequently joke about men's preoccupation with sex and female body parts in the West, but the fascination with these things pales in comparison when you consider that men in the Moslem world are literally consumed by female sexuality and with their fear of it. It is ironic that both Moslem men and women are under the mistaken impression that Western society is over sexualized compared to them, when in fact, it is practically impossible to be more obsessed with sexual matters than they are in the Moslem world.

Consider for a moment a culture that would prefer to let young girls die in a burning building than to risk having them run out of said building not properly shrouded in their “islamically correct” uniforms; and tell me that such a society is less preoccupied with matters of sex than we are in the West.

Enormous effort is spent veiling women, dressing them in amorphous sacks, silencing them, reviling women, punishing them, controlling them, keeping them uneducated, -- in short, dehumanizing women in every way possible, all under the pretence of "protecting" them.

The women in these societies are brainwashed from birth into thinking that this cultural preoccupation somehow is necessary and that it "liberates" them in some bizarre manner.

Hollie you touched on a very important subject. Listen to this what this former Islamist / reformed terrorist says will happen when Islamic radicals take over society. Very interesting:

[ame=http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ao94x-KemJA]Arabs for Israel - Muslims for Israel - Dr.Tawfik Hamid - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Coyote]

That is for sure. When you're talking about a lifetime of watching women being covered from head to toe, strict punishment for premarital sex, and lack of any sports or activities for the young, suddenly those virgins in heaven become very appealing.

Here's another unpleasant tidbit. India is a culture that separates the sexes, prizes males, discourages pre-marital involvement, prizes virginity and is considered one of the worst in the world for violence against women. Throw in the fact that families can select the sex of their children, there is an over abundance of young men, not enough brides and a huge problem with violence. And, of course, child marriages. Most of the problems in all these countries occur in the rural villages and tribal areas where religion is strong and education weak.

But in India it's cultural chauvinism, and not the religion, that is, unless you're talking about Indian Muslims, of which there are 300 million. In their case it's religion, economic, cultural, and educational.

No, it's not - it's enshrined in the religion in the institution of kanayadan marriage where the husband is an aspect of Vishnu and the daughter is donated to Vishnu. The younger the virgin the more prized.

Or consider this, rationalizing it in the religion: understanding the concept of child marriage

 

[Coyote]

Poverty and lack of education. That's what it says in the site I read. The real links in the child bride problem are poverty and lack of education, not religion.

Again, this is not a one size fits all. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels. In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region. Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.

Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.

Your bias is showing. None of those countries you list are even in the list of Top Twenty countries with the highest rates of child marriage: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...cTf1OiqZEebZaFQ&bvm=bv.52288139,d.dmg&cad=rja

1 Niger 76.6
2 Chad 71.5
3 Bangladesh 68.7
4 Mali 65.4
5 Guinea 64.5
6 Central African Republic 57.0
7 Nepal 56.1
8 Mozambique 55.9
9 Uganda 54.1
10 Burkina Faso 51.9
11 India 50.0
12 Ethiopia 49.1
13 Liberia 48.4
14 Yemen 48.4
15 Cameroon 47.2
16 Eritrea 47.0
17 Malawi 46.9
18 Nicaragua 43.3
19 Nigeria 43.3
20 Zambia 42.1

More lipstick on the pig? LOL

In a list of poorest countries in the Middle East, Yemen and Iraq top the list. Out of 14, Iran is 5th.

Then look at this list of poorest countries in the world: 20 Poorest Countries In The World - many of them are also in the top twenty list for child marriages.

And, as an aside - in that list of 20 countries with highest rates we have:
Muslim: Yemen, Niger, Chad, Bangledesh, Yemen, Burkina Faso, Guinea, Mali
Christian: Zambia, Nicaragua, Malawi, Cameroon, Liberia, Ethiopia, Uganda, Mozambique, CAR, Eritrea
Split: Nigeria
Hindu: India, Nepal

Roudy, your lipstick job is smeared all over the place.

 

[Roudy]

Again, this is not a one size fits all. Saudi Arabia, Iran, Iraq, Egypt are not necessarily "poverty stricken" or have exceptionally low educational levels. In fact Iran has some of the highest educated among Muslim countries in the region. Yet, Muslim clerics and the grand ayatollah (people who generally know more about Islam) have said that since child brides are sanctioned by Islam, and since that's what Mohammad did, then so can his followers.

Therefore, the reasons can be economic, educational, governmental, cultural, and yes, RELIGION.

Your bias is showing. None of those countries you list are even in the list of Top Twenty countries with the highest rates of child marriage: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...cTf1OiqZEebZaFQ&bvm=bv.52288139,d.dmg&cad=rja

1 Niger 76.6
2 Chad 71.5
3 Bangladesh 68.7
4 Mali 65.4
5 Guinea 64.5
6 Central African Republic 57.0
7 Nepal 56.1
8 Mozambique 55.9
9 Uganda 54.1
10 Burkina Faso 51.9
11 India 50.0
12 Ethiopia 49.1
13 Liberia 48.4
14 Yemen 48.4
15 Cameroon 47.2
16 Eritrea 47.0
17 Malawi 46.9
18 Nicaragua 43.3
19 Nigeria 43.3
20 Zambia 42.1

More lipstick on the pig? LOL

In a list of poorest countries in the Middle East, Yemen and Iraq top the list. Out of 14, Iran is 5th.

Then look at this list of poorest countries in the world: 20 Poorest Countries In The World - many of them are also in the top twenty list for child marriages.

And, as an aside - in that list of 20 countries with highest rates we have:
Muslim: Yemen, Niger, Chad, Bangledesh, Yemen, Burkina Faso, Guinea, Mali
Christian: Zambia, Nicaragua, Malawi, Cameroon, Liberia, Ethiopia, Uganda, Mozambique, CAR, Eritrea
Split: Nigeria
Hindu: India, Nepal

Roudy, your lipstick job is smeared all over the place.

We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well. What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it. However if we are talking rates and frequency of child marriage, then again, Muslim majority countries lead the pack. So, however you cut this cheese, its going to smell bad.

The Hindu religion isn't the only religion or culture that idolizes "young brides". However, we have young, and then we have a 54 year old prophet and final messenger of God, Mohammad, marrying a 9 year old. The difference is its not interpretative, here you have a specific age or milestone where this kind of marriage can be sanctioned by Islam.

What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.

That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.

 

[Coyote]

We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.

It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?

What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it.

They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.

Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is. What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else. This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.

However if we are talking rates and frequency of child marriage, then again, Muslim majority countries lead the pack. So, however you cut this cheese, its going to smell bad.

The Hindu religion isn't the only religion or culture that idolizes "young brides". However, we have young, and then we have a 54 year old prophet and final messenger of God, Mohammad, marrying a 9 year old. The difference is its not interpretative, here you have a specific age or milestone where this kind of marriage can be sanctioned by Islam.

You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have by no means a definitive fact here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws). You keep ignoring that.

The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).

What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.

Not at all. I have never made the claim that religion has no effect. My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported in the sources I've used.

That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.

If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries? Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.

 

[Roudy]

We aren't talking about rates only, although that is part of it. It is well documented that Child marriages occur in the West among Muslim communities as well.

It is also well documented that those are uncommon and occur primarily in new immigrant communities from - guess where?

What you are also avoiding is that child marriages also occur in countries such as Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran, and are legal, and religion certainly plays a major role in it.

They do, but to a far less extent and they also occur in many other areas around the world and in different religions as I've repeatedly pointed out.

Religion may play a factor but it is not the dominant factor and you haven't proved that it is. What you keep on trying to claim is that in Islamic countries religion is the overriding reason while in other countries, it's something else. This just doesn't fly since you have countries in Africa side by side with high rates and different religions.






You have a prophet that by SOME accounts married a 9 year old and by OTHER accounts, consumated marriage at 16 - you have by no means a definitive fact here and by no means is that age an agreed upon marriagable age in all or even most Islamic countries (looking at age of marriage laws). You keep ignoring that.

The example I gave you was not simply "idolizing" young brides - it was a specific example of child marriage to a god (aspect).

What's even funnier is now, even you yourself are attributing the cause for child marriages in India to have Hindu religion undertones, which undermines your own argument.

Not at all. I have never made the claim that religion has no effect. My argument is that the effect religion plays is less than some of the other effects such as poverty and that is an argument supported in the sources I've used.

That's how it worked in the old days, religion was the greatest influence, so it affected culture and in turn culture affected religious practices. As hard as you try, you can't separate the two.

If the two are that intertwined Roudy (and I agree, they are though child marriages long predated Islam), then why aren't you making the same case for Hindu and Christian countries? Africa leads the pack in child marriages with by far the most number of countries involved and both Christian and Muslim religions.

I don't think child marriage can be directly traced to religion with Christianity, Hinduism or Judaism, the way it can with Islam. And proof of that is the Muslims themselves, and the fact that they cite Mohammad's marriage to Aisha as the reason.

Again the reason I brought up Iran, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia was not because of frequency, but because in those countries child marriage was legalized specifically because of Islam and Mohammad's marriage to a 9 year old.

Re Aisha's age, perhaps you can tell that to the religious courts and Islamic clerics who claim that Aisha was 9, as justification for child marriage. After all, wouldn't they be the ones who know more about Islam and Mohammad than you and I? I think a majority of Muslims agree that Mohammad was engaged to Aisha when she was 6 and the marriage was consummated when she was it her 8 or 9 depending on which source you go by. There is no real dispute as to her age. Your view is not mainstream at all on this.