Child bride in Yemen dies of internal bleeding on wedding night: activist

[SherriMunnerlyn]

And yet, for all your continued apologetics, the sheik'ers and movers of the islamist world refuse to contradict the inventor of Islam and the perfect model for humanity.

Early Marriage | WISE Muslim Women


Al-Azhar Al-Sharif in Egypt, a significant Islamic religious body, released a new manual on the rights of Muslim children that states; "Marriage in Islam is regulated by certain rules, namely, children must reach puberty and maturity so that they can get married."

Yes. Must reach puberty and maturity. That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.

Also from your link:

In November 2006, ministers, politicians and scholars from almost 50 Muslim states gathered for two days in Morocco for the first Islamic Childhood Conference, and called for "measures to eliminate all forms of discrimination against girls and all harmful traditional or customary practices, such as child marriage and female genital mutilation." In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a woman’s credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid. There are some that argue the Prophet married Aisha bint Abu Bakr, at the age of 9 and therefore deduct that child marriage is permissible. However, some scholars question the authenticity of the Hadith that claims Aisha was 9 at the time of marriage as this would go against the just and merciful message of Islam, and most importantly, oppose a prerequisite of having a valid Muslim marriage.

So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.

Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died. Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online

What a shame that both the islamist world and you just can't bring yourselves to unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.


In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a woman’s credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid

And as we know, in a male dominated and controlled society such as islamist society, the child has no way of denying permission or making such choices as to what man she will be married to.

Just another way for islamist apologists to allow the abuse of children to continue.

This phrase "unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage", this demand you seem to desire to judgmentally place on posters here, I have not heard you say you yourself unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage. And what does that even mean, this demand you place on posters here other than yourself? Who defines what child marriage is? Does childhood end at puberty, at 16, at 17, at 18, at 19, at 20, at 21? Do you define child marriage for all of us here, for everyone in every nation? Why must I judge and condemn and demonize people at your command? I refuse to do this.

Child marriage has occurred in Israel, among Jews. It has occurred in the US, lawfully and unlawfully, forced and voluntary, look at Elizabeth Smart , among Christians, among Mormons, Edgar Allen Poe was said to have married his 13 year old cousin.

Who makes you the judge of morality for all?

I do not approve of child marriages, or encourage the practice, but what I see is that the problem occurs within certain cultures and I see it as a struggle for the people inside those individual cultures to address. We outside of these societies encountering these issues can encourage the people there to advocate for rights for young girls women and try to assist them in obtaining rights, but it is their struggle. What I see you as doing is demonizing the people in these societies because of the human rights struggles they are engaged in.

I do not have to condemn and demonize people , like you do. I refuse to be like you.

So, what do I do? I will look up email addresses to officials in the Yemen government and I will write a letter encouraging government officials in Yemen to follow through with this proposal being discussed to raise the age for marriages, something they can do that may help the plight young girls in Yemen find themselves in. But I wont include judgmental or demonizing language in my letter, I will not judge or demonize the people of Yemen or Muslims.

 

[Coyote]

Child marriage and it's causes. In Muslims the main cause is clearly Islam, and Mohammed's marriage to a 9 year old.

The main cause is poverty. Islam is secondary.

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here. A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor. I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child? Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

who did that? The story in the op is not true.

denial.

....is not a river in Egypt.

Let us see you prove it happened.

 

[Roudy]

I don't know what her religion is, but there is no religion that allows it that young....

Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism

Ahh.

Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.

No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs. And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.

 

[Roudy]

Yes. Must reach puberty and maturity. That's not an 8 or 9 yr old, as is the OP.

Also from your link:





So Al-Azhar Al-Sharif, the highest religious body in Sunni, is making a strong statement against child marriage.

Also interesting is the reaction in the Arab world, to the claim that an 8 yr old Yemeni child died. Even though this particular incident was shown to be false, it provoked a great deal of outrage in the Islamic world, for example: Yemen's faces false child marriage accusations- Yemen Post English Newspaper Online

What a shame that both the islamist world and you just can't bring yourselves to unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage.


In Islam intellectual and physical maturity and a woman’s credible permission are prerequisites for a marriage to be valid

And as we know, in a male dominated and controlled society such as islamist society, the child has no way of denying permission or making such choices as to what man she will be married to.

Just another way for islamist apologists to allow the abuse of children to continue.

This phrase "unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage", this demand you seem to desire to judgmentally place on posters here, I have not heard you say you yourself unequivocally reject child abuse by way of child marriage. And what does that even mean, this demand you place on posters here other than yourself? Who defines what child marriage is? Does childhood end at puberty, at 16, at 17, at 18, at 19, at 20, at 21? Do you define child marriage for all of us here, for everyone in every nation? Why must I judge and condemn and demonize people at your command? I refuse to do this.

Child marriage has occurred in Israel, among Jews. It has occurred in the US, lawfully and unlawfully, forced and voluntary, look at Elizabeth Smart , among Christians, among Mormons, Edgar Allen Poe was said to have married his 13 year old cousin.

Who makes you the judge of morality for all?

I do not approve of child marriages, or encourage the practice, but what I see is that the problem occurs within certain cultures and I see it as a struggle for the people inside those individual cultures to address. We outside of these societies encountering these issues can encourage the people there to advocate for rights for young girls women and try to assist them in obtaining rights, but it is their struggle. What I see you as doing is demonizing the people in these societies because of the human rights struggles they are engaged in.

I do not have to condemn and demonize people , like you do. I refuse to be like you.

So, what do I do? I will look up email addresses to officials in the Yemen government and I will write a letter encouraging government officials in Yemen to follow through with this proposal being discussed to raise the age for marriages, something they can do that may help the plight young girls in Yemen find themselves in. But I wont include judgmental or demonizing language in my letter, I will not judge or demonize the people of Yemen or Muslims.

Sherri, you who knows Iranian Muslims, ask them why it is allowed in Iran to marry 9 year olds. Is it because they are poor and need the money <LOL at that one> or because the religious leaders said so, and Islam allows it.

Go ahead and ask and report back to us.

 

[Roudy]

denial.

....is not a river in Egypt.

Let us see you prove it happened.

Prove what happened? I'm not proving the obvious to a nincompoop. It happened, and it happens in Muslim countries, all the time. Wake up.

 

[Roudy]

Aisha's age at marriage:

You decide based on actual historical analysis and ask yourself what your own agenda is in taking events out of their historical period and trying to paint Islam as a religion of pedophiles with widespread suppport for child marriage. Outside of tradtional societies you find little to no support and even within traditional socieites support for marriage prior to puberty (which can be as young as 11 or 12).

Clearly, when modern people try to use an historical age of marriage to validate violating children - it is wrong, it is against the morals, customs and laws the world today. It should be condemned and pressure should be put upon nations that practice it or allow it to put an end to it regardless of religion.

It should be noted that traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aisha&#8217;s age either - the events occurred over a thousand years ago. This gives Muslims the power they need to abolish any religious justification for the practice in Muslim majority countries around world, though it does not address the main issues driving it which are poverty and lack of education.

If there is such a divide on Aisha's age (which there isn't) then why do Muslims feel they have a right to marry 9 years olds and cite Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Mohammed. The world you want to see is different than the world that is. You just refuse to accept this because you've filled your mind with this alternate reality that doesn't correlate to the actual reality.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Aisha's age at marriage:

You decide based on actual historical analysis and ask yourself what your own agenda is in taking events out of their historical period and trying to paint Islam as a religion of pedophiles with widespread suppport for child marriage. Outside of tradtional societies you find little to no support and even within traditional socieites support for marriage prior to puberty (which can be as young as 11 or 12).

Clearly, when modern people try to use an historical age of marriage to validate violating children - it is wrong, it is against the morals, customs and laws the world today. It should be condemned and pressure should be put upon nations that practice it or allow it to put an end to it regardless of religion.

It should be noted that traditional scholarship is not unanimously in agreement about Aisha’s age either - the events occurred over a thousand years ago. This gives Muslims the power they need to abolish any religious justification for the practice in Muslim majority countries around world, though it does not address the main issues driving it which are poverty and lack of education.

If there is such a divide on Aisha's age (which there isn't) then why do Muslims feel they have a right to marry 9 years olds and cite Aisha's age at the time of her marriage to Mohammed. The world you want to see is different than the world that is. You just refuse to accept this because you've filled your mind with this alternate reality that doesn't correlate to the actual reality.

Name even one person in Yemen doing this, who says I arranged a marriage for my 9 year old daughter because Aisha married Mohammad. I think you are filled with BS and hate for Muslims!

 

[S.J.]

The main cause is poverty. Islam is secondary.

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here. A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor. I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child? Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.

 

[Coyote]

From the Babylonian Talmud: When a grown-up man has intercourse with a little girl it is nothing, for when the girl is less than this (6) (6. less than three years old) it is as if one puts the finger into the eye (7) (7. tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come back to the little girl under three years) Kethuboth 11b -


Babylonian Talmud: Kethuboth 11

It doesn't sound like it's "permitted" - looking at the link, it seems to be about penalties applied for certain types of rape.

A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books

From the Mishnah
PG 83 Niddah Ch 5 3-5

"The girl three years and one day old is deemed capable of sexual relations...:"

So that is from "A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities" which sounds as complex and constraining and archaic as all those Islamic codes ... which makes it kind of laughable when people try to single out Islam as a socio-political system some how different from other religions...

It's talking about "Niddah". When I look it up in Wikipedia, it's seems to be rules pertaining to impure (menstrating) women....a bit medievil. Children conceived during Niddah are (ben Niddah) are considered "tainted".

It does state as an example - "a girl 3 yrs old betrothed by intercourse." when talking about legal status of children.

I'll admit - I don't know exactly what to make of it - I'm certainly not a scholar - except to say, that like Islam - many of these rules and cases applied to a culture that existed several thousand years ago and should be viewed in their historical context.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Sherri slut is probably talking about Judaism. There is some sort of myth that it is allowed in Judaism

Ahh.

Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.

No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs. And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.

Does the Mishnah exist?

 

[Jos]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Ahh.

Most likely a passage is taken out of it's historical context and manipulated to feed an agenda.

No such passage. A woman is not considered a woman until her thirteenth birthday, which is why you have Bat-mitzvahs. And even then it means the person is responsible for their own sins in the eyes of God. Says nothing about marriage.

Does the Mishnah exist?

A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary

*edited by Jacob Neusner

PG 83, you can read it online


A history of the Mishnaic Law of Purities. 15. Niddah . Commentary - Google Books

 

[Coyote]

You keep blaming it on poverty, let's use some common sense here. A muslim family is poor, so they sell their 8 or 9 year old child to another muslim who is not poor. I guess the muslim who BUYS the little girl is just doing it to "help out" the poor family and has no intention of violating the child? Perversion/pedophilia isn't a factor?

I'm not the one blaming poverty. I'm citing sources such as UNICEF and human rights organizations that cite poverty as the main reason. Take it up with them.

You seem to overlook the fact that child marriages are not limited to Muslim majority countries and in fact, the top countries for child marriages are almost evenly divided between Christian and Muslim, with a couple of Hindu nations thrown in. Are you trying to tell me that all those non-Muslim child marriages have nothing to do with perversion?

Note - I have never stated perversion/pedophilia is not a factor. I'm quite convinced it is when you are talking about 8 and 9 year olds. You seem to think it's not when it's not a Muslim.

Name a few "non muslim" countries that allow child marriages.

Do you mean allow as in legal ages of consent or allow as in age of consent is poorly enforced and as a result they have high rates of child marriages?

Much of this was gone into earlier in the this thread.

Worldwide ages of consent vary: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...XzY8i9ULsXwVqMg&bvm=bv.52434380,d.dmg&cad=rja

Mexico and Angola have the lowest legal age of consent (for females): 12. They are also Christian majority countries.

 

[Coyote]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

In the case of Avrohom Mondrowitz, who actually sodomized Jewish children, the Gerrer leadership has protected him for 26 years and will continue to do so. It is certainly not because they feel that child rape is acceptable by the Torah.There are three main issues here: 1) The severity of the sin (the fact that it is a crime as well doesn't matter to them because they don't hold by dina d'malchusa). 2) The long term effects on the victim. 3) The repercussions on the molester's family and on the community as a whole. What the rabbis have concluded is that the severity of the sin and the effects on the victim are not strong enough to outweigh the potential damage to the families and the community. They are clueless as to how severe the damaging effects are on the victim. Case in point: one of the victims of Stefan Colmer came to his rebbe, Rabbi Ginzberg of Mirrer Yeshiva complaining that Colmer performed oral sex on him. The boy told the rabbi that Colmer continued until the boy came in his mouth. The rabbi answered, "Nu, so you'll get over it!" Another case in point is the Tropper scandal where his sins were widely reported and the rabbis remain silent till this day.


Why Do Haredi Rabbis Often Turn A Blind Eye To Child Sexual Abuse? - FailedMessiah.com

 

[SherriMunnerlyn]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

So...all that shows is that some Rabbis, like some priests, ministers, immams take advantage of their calling to molest children.

That is right, like some fathers arrange child marriages for their daughters. They include fathers from different religions and cultures. Not all of them do it, fathers that is. Most of us see this conduct as morally wrong, and also the conduct of priests and rabbis and imams who abuse kids. There are things we can most of us agree about, I think.

 

[toastman]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

Just curious Jos, what's your point ?

 

[Roudy]

The fact that Jews (even the most religious ones) aren't marrying girls at said ages, is proof enough that this is a false claim. I've heard all kinds of lies about Jews and Judaism, this ain't one of them.

 

[Roudy]

Geez, nice bullshit you posted there, Sherri....can you show me any country today where Jews are running around marrying girls younger than 10 or 11 legally or by religious law?

Case closed. .

They no longer feel the need to marry the "little ones"
Let me google that for you

In the case of Avrohom Mondrowitz, who actually sodomized Jewish children, the Gerrer leadership has protected him for 26 years and will continue to do so. It is certainly not because they feel that child rape is acceptable by the Torah.There are three main issues here: 1) The severity of the sin (the fact that it is a crime as well doesn't matter to them because they don't hold by dina d'malchusa). 2) The long term effects on the victim. 3) The repercussions on the molester's family and on the community as a whole. What the rabbis have concluded is that the severity of the sin and the effects on the victim are not strong enough to outweigh the potential damage to the families and the community. They are clueless as to how severe the damaging effects are on the victim. Case in point: one of the victims of Stefan Colmer came to his rebbe, Rabbi Ginzberg of Mirrer Yeshiva complaining that Colmer performed oral sex on him. The boy told the rabbi that Colmer continued until the boy came in his mouth. The rabbi answered, "Nu, so you'll get over it!" Another case in point is the Tropper scandal where his sins were widely reported and the rabbis remain silent till this day.


Why Do Haredi Rabbis Often Turn A Blind Eye To Child Sexual Abuse? - FailedMessiah.com

Ha ha ha. Child sexual abuse or child marriage is not sanctioned in Judaism. There are perverts in every religion, as we have found out with the Catholic priests recently. However nobody can cite anything in Catholicism that could be interpreted as a permission to commit child abuse. As with Mohammad's marriage to Aisha.

You guys will knock on all doors and throw anything you can at the wall, won't you?