Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop

[Katzndogz]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

It depends on what they advertise and where. They aren't going to have people streaming in and out of their home. They will have an outlet somewhere. If they advertise for wedding cakes, they have to make wedding cakes for same sex weddings. They aren't saying gays can't buy their chocolate chip cookies. No one can demand they bake them a wedding cake if they don't advertise that they make wedding cakes. You cannot walk into Dunken Donuts and demand a wedding cake. But if the girl behind the counter has been known to make a wedding cake a time or two and you ask very nicely, maybe she'll make one for you too. But she doesn't have to.

The answer is just too simple. Any Christian baker that doesn't want to make cakes for same sex weddings should immediately stop offering these as part of their bakery service. As the ruling in the Photographer's case said, they CAN use a disclaimer in their advertising saying that they cannot offer services to same sex couples because they have a religious objection.

 

[WorldWatcher]

You are relying too heavily on the web site. It has not been changed, yet. Did you notice that it still has a shot of the store. They will have to make some changes in their advertising. They will probably move out of their home quite quickly and into space where they do the baking but that doesn't mean they have to open their doors to the public.

If it were me, I just would stop baking wedding cakes except by private arrangement. I'd put up a sign that says "State and federal law prohibit the advertisement of wedding cakes".

#1 The already made cakes by "private arrangement", people came in, they ordered a cake, they discussed the design with the owner, the owner sold the cake. I'm not sure why, while operating legally under an Oregon Business license as a public business you think "private arrangments" weren't already made. They would need to close shop, relinquish their license, and re-incorporate under a private club concept - then they could restrict sales to bonefide members.

#2 Why would a Christian couple lie about advertising? No State of Federal law prohibits them from advertising about wedding cakes.



>>>>

You aren't getting the concept of open to the public. The bakery advertised that it made wedding cakes. The advertising is made to the general public. A member of the public walks in and negotiates the price and design. Public accommodation for business offered to the public at large.

It's not a private club, because admittance to the premises is not being restricted. Gays can walk in and buy anything out of the display case they want.

Suppose they did not advertise that they made wedding cakes. They made event cakes. Birthday, Bar Mitzvah, baby shower cakes. Someone walks in and says they want to order a wedding cake. The owner says "sorry, we don't make wedding cakes". But, they made a wedding cake for the leader of the church choir! That doesn't matter. It was the result of personal contact not public advertising. No public accommodation. There is no offer to do business with the public at large.

All they have to do is reopen someplace else and stop advertising that they make wedding cakes. Problem solved. They will make a wedding cake as a favor, to special friends.

And if they make cakes for those special friends weddings and they show up as a business transaction under the business books, then they are still in the business of making wedding cakes for sale.

Now, if they do it "under the table" and not on the books, then if they are caught they face fines and criminal prosecution and loss of their business license.

>>>>

 

[Connery]

Merged threads

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't see this as a bad thing, but a good thing. It just needs some creative thinking. Gays will simply have to get used to doing business only with those willing to do business with them.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If they are operating a business (even if it is out of their home), have a business license, and advertise for public sale of goods or services - they still fall under public accommodation laws.



>>>>

It depends on what they advertise and where. They aren't going to have people streaming in and out of their home. They will have an outlet somewhere. If they advertise for wedding cakes, they have to make wedding cakes for same sex weddings. They aren't saying gays can't buy their chocolate chip cookies. No one can demand they bake them a wedding cake if they don't advertise that they make wedding cakes. You cannot walk into Dunken Donuts and demand a wedding cake. But if the girl behind the counter has been known to make a wedding cake a time or two and you ask very nicely, maybe she'll make one for you too. But she doesn't have to.

The answer is just too simple. Any Christian baker that doesn't want to make cakes for same sex weddings should immediately stop offering these as part of their bakery service. As the ruling in the Photographer's case said, they CAN use a disclaimer in their advertising saying that they cannot offer services to same sex couples because they have a religious objection.

That is not what the NM Supreme Court said, they said was:

"They may, for example, post a disclaimer on their website or in their studio advertising that they oppose same-sex marriage but that they comply with applicable anti discrimination laws."​

They said the business was free to state their opinion on the matter in their advertising, but make it clear that they comply with applicable law. They did not say they can post a disclaimer and then discriminate based on race, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation, etc.


>>>>

 

[hazlnut]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

Some of those threats were shocking. One emailer wished for the couple’s children to fall ill. Another expressed hope that Mr. Klein should be shot and even raped, The Blaze reported.

And yet another wrote: “Here’s hoping you go out of business, you bigot.”
The couple said on top of that, their vendors were “badgered and harassed” into stopping all associations with the bakery.

The Kleins say they’re now closing up their doors and moving their operations to their home. Their business, they say, has suffered a serious revenue hit from the unexpected activism and backlash.

Looks like they need a Chik-Fil-A-type support system.

Klein is a jewish name.

 

[Katzndogz]

#1 The already made cakes by "private arrangement", people came in, they ordered a cake, they discussed the design with the owner, the owner sold the cake. I'm not sure why, while operating legally under an Oregon Business license as a public business you think "private arrangments" weren't already made. They would need to close shop, relinquish their license, and re-incorporate under a private club concept - then they could restrict sales to bonefide members.

#2 Why would a Christian couple lie about advertising? No State of Federal law prohibits them from advertising about wedding cakes.



>>>>

You aren't getting the concept of open to the public. The bakery advertised that it made wedding cakes. The advertising is made to the general public. A member of the public walks in and negotiates the price and design. Public accommodation for business offered to the public at large.

It's not a private club, because admittance to the premises is not being restricted. Gays can walk in and buy anything out of the display case they want.

Suppose they did not advertise that they made wedding cakes. They made event cakes. Birthday, Bar Mitzvah, baby shower cakes. Someone walks in and says they want to order a wedding cake. The owner says "sorry, we don't make wedding cakes". But, they made a wedding cake for the leader of the church choir! That doesn't matter. It was the result of personal contact not public advertising. No public accommodation. There is no offer to do business with the public at large.

All they have to do is reopen someplace else and stop advertising that they make wedding cakes. Problem solved. They will make a wedding cake as a favor, to special friends.

And if they make cakes for those special friends weddings and they show up as a business transaction under the business books, then they are still in the business of making wedding cakes for sale.

Now, if they do it "under the table" and not on the books, then if they are caught they face fines and criminal prosecution and loss of their business license.

>>>>

Nope.

I went through this two years ago. I was sued by a lesbian couple because I refused to paint their wedding portrait. They proved that I painted portraits. They proved that I was paid for my work. What they could not prove was that I offered the service of portraiture to anyone. They really could not prove that I offered ANY artistic service for money. Theoretically, they could have walked into my shop and asked to buy a painting off the wall and I could have refused them. I could have said none of these are for sale and that would the end of it.

They cannot use business transactions because business transactions are not information readily available to the general public that would lead a reasonable person to conclude that such services were offered for sale. The place of public accommodation has to hold itself out as providing their services to the general public, not all services, just their services. All they really have to do is not hold themselves out as providing wedding cake baking services.

The Judge in the photographer's case was really clear on the subject.

 

[Skull Pilot]

My mechanic decided a few years ago that he was never again going to have a black customer. He just had too much trouble from them. He closed up his mechanic shop and went private. He's done better than ever. Relieved of monthly overhead, he was able to drop his prices. He doesn't have to pay for advertising either.

Times are changing. What used to be a detriment is going to end up being a plus. As icing on this particular cake, they won't have employees either.

Then they'll have to settle for making a lot less money.

Sorry but two people working out of a home without commercial equipment won't be able to produce much.

Just like your shade tree mechanic bigot will make a lot less than he would if he employed a dozen mechanics in a well run business.

And I'm sure he doesn't pay taxes on what he earns now and that's nothing to be praising.

J Paul Getty once said; ""I'd rather have 1% of the effort of 100 men than 100% of my own effort."

That is the essence of owning a business.

Which of course is bollocks.
I took home more Money and paid less in tax when I was a one man outfit than when I had 12 employees and 18 contractors on sites.
The business value however, now that grew, so when I sold it, I got a good price.
Good enough to invest in something completely different.
Which I sold after 31 months at an amazing profit.

I will pay not one cent in income tax as of next year!!
Imagine that!!
Not one penny!

It's bollocks to assume you can as a one man show fix more cars, bake more bread, serve more people etc than you can with a team of people.

If you are a one man show you do not own a business you own a job and if you don't show up you don't get paid.

A business makes you money when you're not there.

For example we went away for 2 weeks in June and our business grossed over 50K in sales.

If I was a one man show it would have grossed zero.

 

[Darkwind]

I don't do links so I haven't read the article.

I am curios, however, as to how the owners of the bakery knew that the couple was gay?

It isn't like it is stamped on their foreheads.

I smell an agenda going on here.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

Some of those threats were shocking. One emailer wished for the couple’s children to fall ill. Another expressed hope that Mr. Klein should be shot and even raped, The Blaze reported.

And yet another wrote: “Here’s hoping you go out of business, you bigot.”
The couple said on top of that, their vendors were “badgered and harassed” into stopping all associations with the bakery.

The Kleins say they’re now closing up their doors and moving their operations to their home. Their business, they say, has suffered a serious revenue hit from the unexpected activism and backlash.

Looks like they need a Chik-Fil-A-type support system.

I remember arguing with you about this. I am glad you changed your mind, and I owe you rep for it. I still don't understand why anyone would want someone who doesn't want to bake them a cake to be forced to do so.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

WWJH?

(who Would Jesus Hate?)

Aren't these bakers really just using their religion as an excuse to hate?

I don't get that. I don't get why some here who SAY they're "Christian", really just use that as an excuse to hate. There are some here who are just disguised members of the Westboro Baptist "church". They just spew MINDLESS hate and then blame it on their god.

I believe churches should have to pay the same taxes as the rest of us and if they all had to actually act like "Christians" or forfeit their exemption, there would be a lot of money pouring in to the IRS.

Not to mention that they have some really scary sexual hangups ...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

I don't do links so I haven't read the article.

I am curios, however, as to how the owners of the bakery knew that the couple was gay?

It isn't like it is stamped on their foreheads.

I smell an agenda going on here.

They probably wanted a same sex decoration or something and of course, we all know how Jesus/God would have smote them, right there on the spot.

There have been some other posts where I've wondered the same thing - Are business owners now going to demand that your concealed carry gun permit also show your sexual preference AND your country of citizenship?

 

[JOSweetHeart]

You know, I'm getting kind of sick of gay people.

The attitude that so many of them possess is what has made me so sick of them. They act like everyone else in the world owes them something, when we do not owe them a thing, especially if all that they are ever going to see is themselves and what it is that they think that they deserve.

God bless you always!!!

Holly

 

[Quantum Windbag]

...
I wonder what kind of pressure the vendors were under that they chose to act against this couple.

Maybe they saw what is purported to be a facebook rant by the couple (and deleted not long after)

Screenshot

Do you have any idea how easy it is to fake a Facebook page? Sweet Cakes never had a Facebook page, but you managed to find a screenshot of their Facebook page and claim it justified what happened to them.

Fuck off.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Nope. Don't have to like, just have to abide by the law.

Which they didn't, and they blame everyone else but themselves. Hypocrites.

I read about when the arrest of Rosa Parks was justified because she broke the law.

Is it remotely possible that you are the hypocrite?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Do fags have to abide by the law?

The homosexual couple were not in the wrong here. The bakers were.

Not true.

The couple was withing the law, but wrong. The bakery broke the law, but was right.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Christian bakers who refused cake order for gay wedding forced to close shop - Washington Times

A year ago I would have said 'good.' But actually seeing that it happened, - I don't like how this feels. They shouldn't have been treated as they have been treated, not in my estimation.

Some of those threats were shocking. One emailer wished for the couple’s children to fall ill. Another expressed hope that Mr. Klein should be shot and even raped, The Blaze reported.

And yet another wrote: “Here’s hoping you go out of business, you bigot.”
The couple said on top of that, their vendors were “badgered and harassed” into stopping all associations with the bakery.

The Kleins say they’re now closing up their doors and moving their operations to their home. Their business, they say, has suffered a serious revenue hit from the unexpected activism and backlash.

Looks like they need a Chik-Fil-A-type support system.

WIMPS!

They got some emails and phone calls?

Pussies..they're OOB because their business failed, so now they're hoping that by pretending to be SCARED they're hoping RW dupes will save their bidness.

If they were threatened, they can go top the cops.

Did they?

Their business is still open and baking cakes, they just closed the store front.

I guess that makes you the idiot.

 

[BDBoop]

Apparently not to serve gays, huh Chick-a-fil ?

chick fil a didn't threaten to refuse service to GLBT folks, just to give money to those opposing inclusion. That led to the boycott, and chick fil a backed down.

They never backed down, it's own customers came in force to support them. The boycott was practically meaningless since it had little to no impact on it's revenue. Actually it turned out to be more profitable for them than not.

Orly?

Chick-fil-A promises to stop giving money to anti-gay groups - Los Angeles Times

Chick-fil-A has pledged to stop giving money to anti-gay groups and to back off political and social debates after an executive’s comments this summer landed the fast-food chain smack in the middle of the gay marriage debate.

The Civil Rights Agenda, which dubs itself the largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy group in Illinois, said Chick-fil-A agreed in meetings to stop donating to groups such as Focus on the Family and the National Organization for Marriage. Such groups oppose same-sex marriage.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

WWJH?

(who Would Jesus Hate?)

Aren't these bakers really just using their religion as an excuse to hate?

I don't get that. I don't get why some here who SAY they're "Christian", really just use that as an excuse to hate. There are some here who are just disguised members of the Westboro Baptist "church". They just spew MINDLESS hate and then blame it on their god.

I believe churches should have to pay the same taxes as the rest of us and if they all had to actually act like "Christians" or forfeit their exemption, there would be a lot of money pouring in to the IRS.

Not to mention that they have some really scary sexual hangups ...

Aren't you really using your stupidity as an excuse to hate?

In the 5 years that Oregon has had a law that made it illegal to discriminate against gays they received a dozen complains, and half of them were ruled unjustified.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

...
I wonder what kind of pressure the vendors were under that they chose to act against this couple.

Maybe they saw what is purported to be a facebook rant by the couple (and deleted not long after)

Screenshot

Do you have any idea how easy it is to fake a Facebook page? Sweet Cakes never had a Facebook page, but you managed to find a screenshot of their Facebook page and claim it justified what happened to them.

Fuck off.

Uh, yes, they did have a FB page. I read it and I also saw that linked from a news story early today.

It has since been taken down.

I can't say if that's real or not but its the same language as I read before.

 

[BDBoop]

...
I wonder what kind of pressure the vendors were under that they chose to act against this couple.

Maybe they saw what is purported to be a facebook rant by the couple (and deleted not long after)

Screenshot

Do you have any idea how easy it is to fake a Facebook page? Sweet Cakes never had a Facebook page, but you managed to find a screenshot of their Facebook page and claim it justified what happened to them.

Fuck off.

I was just at their Facebook page this morning.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sweet-Cakes-by-Melissa/352725392798?rf=218956318229708