Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it".....

[Bonzi]

"Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it"....."

Those free from faith indeed 'get' Christianity; in fact, the vast majority of those free from faith were once Christian, with a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the gospels and the religion's doctrine and dogma - and with that knowledge and understanding came to the correct conclusion that being free from faith was the appropriate decision.

Well I think that's a pretty simplistic model. It's not like all atheists (or perhaps even most) experienced a 'moment of enlightenment where they saw through the myth'. I think that is certainly true of some atheists and it is certainly how they would like to view themselves, but I would guess that the real reasons are far more complex, far less mystic than some grand epiphany, and far more personal in nature. I would guess that many of them left faith because they were raised in a religiously repressive environment and when they got on their own they rejected faith as a means of rebellion. Some perhaps suffered a tragedy that made them question why God allows such things to happen. Some perhaps are just lazy and find that not believing is far easier than maintaining their faith. There are all sorts of reasons.

I have found that there are many people who rejected their faith and desperately want it back. They just don't know how. One friend of mine rejected faith because he fell in with a bad church. It was a community wherein they were not allowed to listen to rock music, they were not allowed to go roller skating, they were not allowed to ask any questions, etc. If they did they were dragged on the stage during service and chastised in front of the community. Pfft...I understand completely why he hates religion the way he does. But he also says he wishes he had found a path where his faith could have been maintained. That's just one example, but there are many.

Absolutely there are those who, after great inner reflection, simply said "I don't buy it", but I am not convinced they represent the majority reason for why people leave faith.

I tend to view your assumption that atheists are somehow more enlightened than theists is reflective of your inner need to convince yourself of your own superiority. You sure aint convincing any of us.

Atheists are not more "enlightened" than theists.

They are just less encumbered with superstitious beliefs.

Makes for clearer and more rational thinking IMO.

I can't recall ever hearing any Pastararian wondering what would the flying spaghetti monster do?

why do you dismiss the historical evidences of Christ?
of the Bible?
what are you afraid of?

 

[BluePhantom]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Yep
That is exactly what he was accused of and why the Pharisees wanted him dead.

But Jesus himself never made that claim. He knew that it would have been a death penalty if he had.

Oh yes He did, DT. At least according to the gospels.

"9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." (John 14:9-13, NIV)

"61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death." (Mark 14:61-64, NIV)

"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. ...20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah." (Matt 16:13-20, NIV)

Oh yeah He did!

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Well I am not so sure about that. The portrayal of the divinity of Jesus is quite different across the gospels and even there is even greater differences in the apocrypha. In Mark, for example, He takes great effort to conceal His identity as the Messiah where in John He goes out of His way to demonstrate it. He was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin (although the reasons for His actually arrest and the charges before Pilate were quite different).

James, the brother of Jesus, is reputed to have call Paul the Man of the Lie for calling Jesus the son of God according to one interpretation of the dead sea scrolls which is about as contemporaneous as it gets.

Overall Jesus does not outright make the claim for himself although it is certainly implied. The problem with those versions is how many times were they edited to alter that implication?

 

[Derideo_Te]

"Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it"....."

Those free from faith indeed 'get' Christianity; in fact, the vast majority of those free from faith were once Christian, with a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the gospels and the religion's doctrine and dogma - and with that knowledge and understanding came to the correct conclusion that being free from faith was the appropriate decision.

Well I think that's a pretty simplistic model. It's not like all atheists (or perhaps even most) experienced a 'moment of enlightenment where they saw through the myth'. I think that is certainly true of some atheists and it is certainly how they would like to view themselves, but I would guess that the real reasons are far more complex, far less mystic than some grand epiphany, and far more personal in nature. I would guess that many of them left faith because they were raised in a religiously repressive environment and when they got on their own they rejected faith as a means of rebellion. Some perhaps suffered a tragedy that made them question why God allows such things to happen. Some perhaps are just lazy and find that not believing is far easier than maintaining their faith. There are all sorts of reasons.

I have found that there are many people who rejected their faith and desperately want it back. They just don't know how. One friend of mine rejected faith because he fell in with a bad church. It was a community wherein they were not allowed to listen to rock music, they were not allowed to go roller skating, they were not allowed to ask any questions, etc. If they did they were dragged on the stage during service and chastised in front of the community. Pfft...I understand completely why he hates religion the way he does. But he also says he wishes he had found a path where his faith could have been maintained. That's just one example, but there are many.

Absolutely there are those who, after great inner reflection, simply said "I don't buy it", but I am not convinced they represent the majority reason for why people leave faith.

I tend to view your assumption that atheists are somehow more enlightened than theists is reflective of your inner need to convince yourself of your own superiority. You sure aint convincing any of us.

Atheists are not more "enlightened" than theists.

They are just less encumbered with superstitious beliefs.

Makes for clearer and more rational thinking IMO.

I can't recall ever hearing any Pastararian wondering what would the flying spaghetti monster do?

why do you dismiss the historical evidences of Christ?
of the Bible?
what are you afraid of?

Those "historical evidences" don't hold water and neither do they stand up as evidence for the existence of your God.

But feel free to bring up whatever you believe to be the most convincing of your "historical evidences" and we can discuss them.

I am not afraid to discuss any of them.

 

[rdean]

Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it".....

Who want's it?

I think mysticism is a horrible scam on humanity.

 

[Bonzi]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Well I am not so sure about that. The portrayal of the divinity of Jesus is quite different across the gospels and even there is even greater differences in the apocrypha. In Mark, for example, He takes great effort to conceal His identity as the Messiah where in John He goes out of His way to demonstrate it. He was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin (although the reasons for His actually arrest and the charges before Pilate were quite different).

James, the brother of Jesus, is reputed to have call Paul the Man of the Lie for calling Jesus the son of God according to one interpretation of the dead sea scrolls which is about as contemporaneous as it gets.

Overall Jesus does not outright make the claim for himself although it is certainly implied. The problem with those versions is how many times were they edited to alter that implication?

You are giving validity to the Word of God.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Say the Bible is bunk, or admit it is truth, but do not argue in between.

 

[Anathema]

Gee thats what Christianity is.........an individual connection to God.....

No its not. When the vast majority of people feel the need to associate themselves abd others with a denomination that's not an individual connection.

 

[Bonzi]

"Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it"....."

Those free from faith indeed 'get' Christianity; in fact, the vast majority of those free from faith were once Christian, with a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the gospels and the religion's doctrine and dogma - and with that knowledge and understanding came to the correct conclusion that being free from faith was the appropriate decision.

Well I think that's a pretty simplistic model. It's not like all atheists (or perhaps even most) experienced a 'moment of enlightenment where they saw through the myth'. I think that is certainly true of some atheists and it is certainly how they would like to view themselves, but I would guess that the real reasons are far more complex, far less mystic than some grand epiphany, and far more personal in nature. I would guess that many of them left faith because they were raised in a religiously repressive environment and when they got on their own they rejected faith as a means of rebellion. Some perhaps suffered a tragedy that made them question why God allows such things to happen. Some perhaps are just lazy and find that not believing is far easier than maintaining their faith. There are all sorts of reasons.

I have found that there are many people who rejected their faith and desperately want it back. They just don't know how. One friend of mine rejected faith because he fell in with a bad church. It was a community wherein they were not allowed to listen to rock music, they were not allowed to go roller skating, they were not allowed to ask any questions, etc. If they did they were dragged on the stage during service and chastised in front of the community. Pfft...I understand completely why he hates religion the way he does. But he also says he wishes he had found a path where his faith could have been maintained. That's just one example, but there are many.

Absolutely there are those who, after great inner reflection, simply said "I don't buy it", but I am not convinced they represent the majority reason for why people leave faith.

I tend to view your assumption that atheists are somehow more enlightened than theists is reflective of your inner need to convince yourself of your own superiority. You sure aint convincing any of us.

Atheists are not more "enlightened" than theists.

They are just less encumbered with superstitious beliefs.

Makes for clearer and more rational thinking IMO.

I can't recall ever hearing any Pastararian wondering what would the flying spaghetti monster do?

why do you dismiss the historical evidences of Christ?
of the Bible?
what are you afraid of?

Those "historical evidences" don't hold water and neither do they stand up as evidence for the existence of your God.

But feel free to bring up whatever you believe to be the most convincing of your "historical evidences" and we can discuss them.

I am not afraid to discuss any of them.

Is that what your inner core is telling you De Te?
The truth can not be denied....

 

[Bonzi]

Gee thats what Christianity is.........an individual connection to God.....

No its not. When the vast majority of people feel the need to associate themselves abd others with a denomination that's not an individual connection.

Christianity is a believe in Christ as God. Acceptance that he died for your sins so that you can stand before God, blameless and perfect and in everlasting life with Him. Now and forever.

 

[BluePhantom]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Well I am not so sure about that. The portrayal of the divinity of Jesus is quite different across the gospels and even there is even greater differences in the apocrypha. In Mark, for example, He takes great effort to conceal His identity as the Messiah where in John He goes out of His way to demonstrate it. He was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin (although the reasons for His actually arrest and the charges before Pilate were quite different).

James, the brother of Jesus, is reputed to have call Paul the Man of the Lie for calling Jesus the son of God according to one interpretation of the dead sea scrolls which is about as contemporaneous as it gets.

Overall Jesus does not outright make the claim for himself although it is certainly implied. The problem with those versions is how many times were they edited to alter that implication?

Who said anything about Paul? Paul had nothing to do with writing the gospels. As far as the purported conflict between James and Paul...there are stories in the apocrypha. I am not sure how reliable they are. You have to keep in mind that in the early church there was a LOT of dissention about who Jesus was and what He taught. Lots of people who came later would write something in someone else's name, usually an apostle or someone significant that had authority, in order to give authority to their own personal views. The message of Paul was not the only one being taught. Many people thought Paul was a heretic and would write letters hammering him and sign those letters as someone else. It's what is known as pseudepigraphy (which I am sure you know).

As the far as the redaction...yeah sure....the Bible has been heavily redacted. That's why recognizing the findings of Biblical scholarship is so important...especially textual criticism. The goal is to try to reconstruct what scripture originally said. That's also why many Christians find it so threatening, of course.

I don't know how much more direct He could have gotten with the passages I gave in post #62 though. He seems to be pretty clear about it.

 

[Manonthestreet]

Gee thats what Christianity is.........an individual connection to God.....

No its not. When the vast majority of people feel the need to associate themselves abd others with a denomination that's not an individual connection.

Yes it is...........Christs message is directed at the individual......

 

[Bonzi]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Well I am not so sure about that. The portrayal of the divinity of Jesus is quite different across the gospels and even there is even greater differences in the apocrypha. In Mark, for example, He takes great effort to conceal His identity as the Messiah where in John He goes out of His way to demonstrate it. He was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin (although the reasons for His actually arrest and the charges before Pilate were quite different).

Ultimately, if you are in relationship with God - Truth is known. It sounds like a cop out to the secular, and, is very really to children of God. It's impossible for an unsaved person to truly understand Truth, but, possible to discover and for it to be revealed with an open heart....

 

[Anathema]

Christianity is a believe in Christ as God. Acceptance that he died for your sins so that you can stand before God, blameless and perfect and in everlasting life with Him. Now and forever.

Not what I look for in a Deity. Nor have I seen evidence that what is expected of a Christian in this life is worth what you get at the end.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Yep
That is exactly what he was accused of and why the Pharisees wanted him dead.

But Jesus himself never made that claim. He knew that it would have been a death penalty if he had.

Oh yes He did, DT. At least according to the gospels.

"9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." (John 14:9-13, NIV)

"61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer. Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?” 62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.” 63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?” They all condemned him as worthy of death." (Mark 14:61-64, NIV)

"13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” 14 They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” 16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God.”
17 Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by my Father in heaven. ...20 Then he ordered his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Messiah." (Matt 16:13-20, NIV)

Oh yeah He did!

You mean the kangaroo court scene where none of the witness testimony was reliable and Jesus said nothing at all?

Until suddenly he "confesses" and is beaten?

Or was he beaten until he confessed?

The question itself raises doubts. Who was the high priest referring to as the "blessed one"? Was it God or was he referring to Mary? If it was the latter then the answer makes sense.

But let's put this in the proper context. We have a biased court with an agenda and a bunch of weaselly priests/lawyers trying to force a confession out of a carpenter.

It wasn't as if this was a public trial with reporters and the public. Instead it was a set up with a foregone conclusion as to the outcome.

How many of these trials have we seen on TV? Are you seriously basing your faith on a bunch of lawyers?

 

[Bonzi]

Christianity is a believe in Christ as God. Acceptance that he died for your sins so that you can stand before God, blameless and perfect and in everlasting life with Him. Now and forever.

Not what I look for in a Deity. Nor have I seen evidence that what is expected of a Christian in this life is worth what you get at the end.

It's not about you. That is key.

 

[Anathema]

Yes it is...........Christs message is directed at the individual......

Yet you all seem to find it necessary to have congregations and denominations.

 

[Anathema]

It's not about you. That is key.

If that Deity wants my time money and interest then it IS about me to a certain degree.

 

[Derideo_Te]

The Bible is clear, and it is consistent: one person cannot die for the sins of another. In other words, the sins committed by one person cannot be wiped out by the punishment given to another. In Exodus 32:30-35, Moses asks Gd to punish him for the sin committed by the people in regards to the Golden Calf. Gd tells Moses that the person who committed the sin is the one who must receive the punishment. Then, in Deuteronomy 24:16, Gd simply states this as a basic principle, 'Every man shall be put to death for his own sin.' This concept is repeated in the Prophets, in Ezekiel 18: 'The soul that sinneth, it shall die... the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.' The prophet Jeremiah looks to the day when the mistaken belief that one man's death atones for another man's sins shall no longer be held by anyone: in Jeremiah 31:29-30, the prophet says: 'In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge.'

What Jews Believe Essay 1 No Vicarious Atonement

It is clear that you do not believe that Jesus is Gods son.
Nothing will convince you and I doubt that you will believe, even when you stand before Jesus at judgment.

Even Jesus would not have believed that he was the son of God because to do so would have been blasphemy for a Jew.

Well I am not so sure about that. The portrayal of the divinity of Jesus is quite different across the gospels and even there is even greater differences in the apocrypha. In Mark, for example, He takes great effort to conceal His identity as the Messiah where in John He goes out of His way to demonstrate it. He was convicted of blasphemy by the Sanhedrin (although the reasons for His actually arrest and the charges before Pilate were quite different).

James, the brother of Jesus, is reputed to have call Paul the Man of the Lie for calling Jesus the son of God according to one interpretation of the dead sea scrolls which is about as contemporaneous as it gets.

Overall Jesus does not outright make the claim for himself although it is certainly implied. The problem with those versions is how many times were they edited to alter that implication?

You are giving validity to the Word of God.

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Say the Bible is bunk, or admit it is truth, but do not argue in between.

The bible is a double edged sword. It can just as effectively be used against theists since it contains so many contradictions.

Your problem is that you have bought into it as being infallible. That means when I expose it as being wrong I expose a flaw in your beliefs.

I have no such vested interest. It doesn't matter to me that it is just a big book of myths, fairy tales and mumbo jumbo with some actual history mixed in to give it a little credence.

 

[Derideo_Te]

"Christianity..... why non believers don't "get it"....."

Those free from faith indeed 'get' Christianity; in fact, the vast majority of those free from faith were once Christian, with a comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the gospels and the religion's doctrine and dogma - and with that knowledge and understanding came to the correct conclusion that being free from faith was the appropriate decision.

Well I think that's a pretty simplistic model. It's not like all atheists (or perhaps even most) experienced a 'moment of enlightenment where they saw through the myth'. I think that is certainly true of some atheists and it is certainly how they would like to view themselves, but I would guess that the real reasons are far more complex, far less mystic than some grand epiphany, and far more personal in nature. I would guess that many of them left faith because they were raised in a religiously repressive environment and when they got on their own they rejected faith as a means of rebellion. Some perhaps suffered a tragedy that made them question why God allows such things to happen. Some perhaps are just lazy and find that not believing is far easier than maintaining their faith. There are all sorts of reasons.

I have found that there are many people who rejected their faith and desperately want it back. They just don't know how. One friend of mine rejected faith because he fell in with a bad church. It was a community wherein they were not allowed to listen to rock music, they were not allowed to go roller skating, they were not allowed to ask any questions, etc. If they did they were dragged on the stage during service and chastised in front of the community. Pfft...I understand completely why he hates religion the way he does. But he also says he wishes he had found a path where his faith could have been maintained. That's just one example, but there are many.

Absolutely there are those who, after great inner reflection, simply said "I don't buy it", but I am not convinced they represent the majority reason for why people leave faith.

I tend to view your assumption that atheists are somehow more enlightened than theists is reflective of your inner need to convince yourself of your own superiority. You sure aint convincing any of us.

Atheists are not more "enlightened" than theists.

They are just less encumbered with superstitious beliefs.

Makes for clearer and more rational thinking IMO.

I can't recall ever hearing any Pastararian wondering what would the flying spaghetti monster do?

why do you dismiss the historical evidences of Christ?
of the Bible?
what are you afraid of?

Those "historical evidences" don't hold water and neither do they stand up as evidence for the existence of your God.

But feel free to bring up whatever you believe to be the most convincing of your "historical evidences" and we can discuss them.

I am not afraid to discuss any of them.

Is that what your inner core is telling you De Te?
The truth can not be denied....

Why the deflection, Bonzi?

Afraid that I am going to destroy your "historical evidences" too?

 

[Bonzi]

It's not about you. That is key.

If that Deity wants my time money and interest then it IS about me to a certain degree.

Money... can you take it with you? It's temporal?
Is that really what you value in life?
God doesn't want your money, he wants your HEART!