CIA Confirms: Waterboarding 9/11 Mastermind Led to Info that Aborted 9/11-Style Attac

[Red Dawn]

well, it's settled then. Debate over.


Republicans love torture, they love sadism, and they think torturing is as american as apple pie.

Liberals, and sane republicans like Ron paul and John mcCain think torture is unamerican, illegal and immoral.

wrong again, asshole
the debate is on just what is torture
you saying talking to them harshly is torture
we dont
you are just a fucking pussy assed wimp

You're lying, Dumbcon, but that's no surprise.

I never said a word about "talking to them harshly"


You love torture, you want to lock people in boxes, slam their heads against walls, and waterboard them.

that's fine, if that's what you believe, and what you love.

problem is, torture is fucking illegal. Its against the law of the united states. You CONS certainly seemed concerened about the rule of law when a president lied about a blow job.


I'm more than happy, if you want to convince the repubilcan party to get on the floor of the US Senate, and in full view of the world, try to pass legislation making torture legal.

Lets's have the debate. In the open.

Until then, torture is fucking illegal. Even though I know you would love to torture somebody, you sadistic fuck.

 

[DiveCon]

well, it's settled then. Debate over.


Republicans love torture, they love sadism, and they think torturing is as american as apple pie.

Liberals, and sane republicans like Ron paul and John mcCain think torture is unamerican, illegal and immoral.

wrong again, asshole
the debate is on just what is torture
you saying talking to them harshly is torture
we dont
you are just a fucking pussy assed wimp

You're lying, Dumbcon, but that's no surprise.

I never said a word about "talking to them harshly"


You love torture, you want to lock people in boxes, slam their heads against walls, and waterboard them.

that's fine, if that's what you believe, and what you love.

problem is, torture is fucking illegal. Its against the law of the united states. You CONS certainly seemed concerened about the rule of law when a president lied about a blow job.


I'm more than happy, if you want to convince the repubilcan party to get on the floor of the US Senate, and in full view of the world, try to pass legislation making torture legal.

Lets's have the debate. In the open.

Until then, torture is fucking illegal. Even though I know you would love to torture somebody, you sadistic fuck.

fuck off asshole
you are totally fucking clueless

 

[DiveCon]

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.

Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp

Conveniently left out of the press release?

He also defends those who carried out the interrogations?

Looks like someone in BO government has sense.

amazing
he wont last long

 

[Phate]

I am pulled in-between when it comes to this

If we are 110% sure that we have detained a high-level extremist, then I believe water boarding is justified if it can save the lives of innocent people. Notice how I said 110% sure. I will not support torture/water boarding if it is done on "suspects" or extremists the U.S military thinks might know something. They have to have sustainable evidence that who they are holding is a threat and knows something.

 

[Sinatra]

I watched a discussion on this earlier today.

Remarkable.

 

[DiveCon]

I am pulled in-between when it comes to this

If we are 110% sure that we have detained a high-level extremist, then I believe water boarding is justified if it can save the lives of innocent people. Notice how I said 110% sure. I will not support torture/water boarding if it is done on "suspects" or extremists the U.S military thinks might know something. They have to have sustainable evidence that who they are holding is a threat and knows something.

KSM was for sure a high level detainee
so were the other 2 that were waterboarded
and the grand total of time that they were waterboarded was 5 minutes(all 3 of them)

 

[Phate]

I am pulled in-between when it comes to this

If we are 110% sure that we have detained a high-level extremist, then I believe water boarding is justified if it can save the lives of innocent people. Notice how I said 110% sure. I will not support torture/water boarding if it is done on "suspects" or extremists the U.S military thinks might know something. They have to have sustainable evidence that who they are holding is a threat and knows something.

KSM was for sure a high level detainee
so were the other 2 that were waterboarded
and the grand total of time that they were waterboarded was 5 minutes(all 3 of them)

Well. In that case - he deserved it. He admitted he planned the attacks so he had it coming.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I did, and take it back -- you did answered #1 and #2 though not #3.

Do you agree with me that the techniques I mentioned should not be legal?

And are you approving other nations legitimately water boarding US soldiers and citizens and whatever other torture techniques you think are legal?

Our special forces undergo water boarding as part of their training to be prepared for capture. And, no i would not want it to happen but i am not so Polly Anna as to believe that what i want will sway an enemy. nor am I so naive to think that because we might not use the techniques in question that our enemies won't.

So in that regard I am saying that no technique should be off limits.

Since we are speaking hypothetically here, would you agree that if the intelligence gathered via water boarding actually did stop an attack on Los Angeles, that had Obama been president at the time, many hundreds or possibly thousands more Americans would have died all for his belief that it is better Americans die than we water board one terrorist?

God...every time you post something, it's just another dumb-ass attack. SERE school gives trainees a small taste of what torture is. It has a definite time frame...you will be released at the end of the course...you go home when you're done, a little wiser, but no worse for the wear.

The detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere, have been detained with no endpoint in sight...they may never be released...if they are released, they will carry profound physical and psychological scars.

If you want a detailed dissertation on the subject from a former SERE school instructor...

Waterboarding is Torture… Period​

And your hypothetical situation is just that, a fictional situation thought true by folks who have watched to many episodes of "24" never realizing that it too is fiction.

really?

washingtonpost.com

Consider the Justice Department memo of May 30, 2005. It notes that "the CIA believes 'the intelligence acquired from these interrogations has been a key reason why al Qaeda has failed to launch a spectacular attack in the West since 11 September 2001.' . . . In particular, the CIA believes that it would have been unable to obtain critical information from numerous detainees, including [Khalid Sheik Mohammed] and Abu Zubaydah, without these enhanced techniques." The memo continues: "Before the CIA used enhanced techniques . . . KSM resisted giving any answers to questions about future attacks, simply noting, 'Soon you will find out.' " Once the techniques were applied, "interrogations have led to specific, actionable intelligence, as well as a general increase in the amount of intelligence regarding al Qaeda and its affiliates."
ad_icon

Specifically, interrogation with enhanced techniques "led to the discovery of a KSM plot, the 'Second Wave,' 'to use East Asian operatives to crash a hijacked airliner into' a building in Los Angeles." KSM later acknowledged before a military commission at Guantanamo Bay that the target was the Library Tower, the tallest building on the West Coast. The memo explains that "information obtained from KSM also led to the capture of Riduan bin Isomuddin, better known as Hambali, and the discovery of the Guraba Cell, a 17-member Jemmah Islamiyah cell tasked with executing the 'Second Wave.' " In other words, without enhanced interrogations, there could be a hole in the ground in Los Angeles to match the one in New York.

And i don't watch 24 so that reference is useless. but the attack referenced above certainly sound like nonfiction to me.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Ahhh...another dumb-ass attack. Are you and Skully butt-buddies?

More on the myth...

The Myth of the Ticking Time Bomb​

You guys gotta get out more and stop watching so much bad tv.

nice unbiased source there
NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please, by all means , refute it...If you can.

All anyone with a brain needs to read in that piece is the final sentence to realize the authors logic is poor.

The use of torture to stop ticking bombs leads ultimately to a cruel choice—either legalize this brutality, à la Dershowitz and Bush, or accept that the logical corollary to state-sanctioned torture is state-sponsored murder, à la Vietnam.

Murder is NOT the "logical corollary" to interrogation using any of the techniques involved in the NYT article cited earlier.. The author is at least guilty of presenting a false slippery slope here.

 

[Skull Pilot]

I did, and take it back -- you did answered #1 and #2 though not #3.

Do you agree with me that the techniques I mentioned should not be legal?

And are you approving other nations legitimately water boarding US soldiers and citizens and whatever other torture techniques you think are legal?

Our special forces undergo water boarding as part of their training to be prepared for capture. And, no i would not want it to happen but i am not so Polly Anna as to believe that what i want will sway an enemy. nor am I so naive to think that because we might not use the techniques in question that our enemies won't.

So in that regard I am saying that no technique should be off limits.

Since we are speaking hypothetically here, would you agree that if the intelligence gathered via water boarding actually did stop an attack on Los Angeles, that had Obama been president at the time, many hundreds or possibly thousands more Americans would have died all for his belief that it is better Americans die than we water board one terrorist?

God...every time you post something, it's just another dumb-ass attack. SERE school gives trainees a small taste of what torture is. It has a definite time frame...you will be released at the end of the course...you go home when you're done, a little wiser, but no worse for the wear.

The detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere, have been detained with no endpoint in sight...they may never be released...if they are released, they will carry profound physical and psychological scars.

.

Well IMHO, if the terrorist doesn't worry about the profound psychological scars that wantonly killing as many innocent people as possible may produce, why the fuck should i worry about any such scars he may receive as a result of preventing him from killing said innocent people?

 

[Bullypulpit]

The Progressive is an American monthly magazine of politics and culture with a pronounced leftist perspective. Known for its pacifism, it has strongly opposed military interventions, such as the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003. The magazine also devotes much coverage to civil rights, civil liberties, and environmentalism. It has opposed nuclear weapons from August 1945 to the present.

In the 1980s, it published stories about U.S. support for death squads in Central America. During the 1990s, The Progressive campaigned on behalf of immigrants, women on welfare, LGBT social movements, and prisoners. In recent years, it worked to end the economic sanctions on Iraq, to prevent U.S. involvement in the Colombian civil war, to adopt a more liberal policy toward drugs, and to institute public funding of political campaigns.

WXXM-FM in Madison, Wisconsin, an Air America Radio affiliate, features a "Progressive Radio" show with Matthew Rothschild. The half-hour show is broadcast on terrestrial and Internet radio stations across the country, as is a daily audio editorial, The Progressive Point of View, which features Rothschild.

The Progressive - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
-----

Definitely an un-biased news periodical.

That's NOT a refutation of anything. It's just a cut-and-paste because ya got nothin'.

 

[eots]

Every war when it comes, or before it comes, is represented not as a war but as an act of self-defense against a homicidal maniac.
George Orwell

 

[Bullypulpit]

Our special forces undergo water boarding as part of their training to be prepared for capture. And, no i would not want it to happen but i am not so Polly Anna as to believe that what i want will sway an enemy. nor am I so naive to think that because we might not use the techniques in question that our enemies won't.

So in that regard I am saying that no technique should be off limits.

Since we are speaking hypothetically here, would you agree that if the intelligence gathered via water boarding actually did stop an attack on Los Angeles, that had Obama been president at the time, many hundreds or possibly thousands more Americans would have died all for his belief that it is better Americans die than we water board one terrorist?

God...every time you post something, it's just another dumb-ass attack. SERE school gives trainees a small taste of what torture is. It has a definite time frame...you will be released at the end of the course...you go home when you're done, a little wiser, but no worse for the wear.

The detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere, have been detained with no endpoint in sight...they may never be released...if they are released, they will carry profound physical and psychological scars.

.

Well IMHO, if the terrorist doesn't worry about the profound psychological scars that wantonly killing as many innocent people as possible may produce, why the fuck should i worry about any such scars he may receive as a result of preventing him from killing said innocent people?

Look, Skull Merkin...The facts are that torture doesn't produce reliable intel. Second, any prosecution whether in civil or military courts of people who have been tortured will fail as any evidence obtained through torture will be tainted and thus, inadmissible. And, if you've paid ANY attention at all, which seems unlikely. most of the detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere are low level functionaries who were little more than cooks and drivers for Al Qaeda or completely innocent. Is it right or just to hold and/or torture the innocent? Or are you of that noxious school of thought that the ends justify the means even if the innocent get caught up in the meat grinder?

And your opinion, is just that...an opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

 

[Bullypulpit]

So, did the rest of the thread get lost in the move?

 

[Skull Pilot]

God...every time you post something, it's just another dumb-ass attack. SERE school gives trainees a small taste of what torture is. It has a definite time frame...you will be released at the end of the course...you go home when you're done, a little wiser, but no worse for the wear.

The detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere, have been detained with no endpoint in sight...they may never be released...if they are released, they will carry profound physical and psychological scars.

.

Well IMHO, if the terrorist doesn't worry about the profound psychological scars that wantonly killing as many innocent people as possible may produce, why the fuck should i worry about any such scars he may receive as a result of preventing him from killing said innocent people?

Look, Skull Merkin...The facts are that torture doesn't produce reliable intel. Second, any prosecution whether in civil or military courts of people who have been tortured will fail as any evidence obtained through torture will be tainted and thus, inadmissible. And, if you've paid ANY attention at all, which seems unlikely. most of the detainees at GITMO, and elsewhere are low level functionaries who were little more than cooks and drivers for Al Qaeda or completely innocent. Is it right or just to hold and/or torture the innocent? Or are you of that noxious school of thought that the ends justify the means even if the innocent get caught up in the meat grinder?

And your opinion, is just that...an opinion, and an ill-informed one at that.

So the intel that stopped the L.A. attack was useless?

These so called torture techniques are NOT physical in nature but rather psychological. Combined with sleep deprivation, hunger, and other methods, they are designed to weaken psychological barriers and elicit unintentional responses from prisoners.

There was no ripping out of fingernails, no breaking of bones, no Iron Maidens, no stretching on the rack etc. So the "They said anything to stop the pain" defense does not work.

The physical safety of these terrorists was taken into account every step of the way

And if one, just one, American's life was saved because of it, I have no problem with a terrorists or anyone with knowledge of a terrorist plot being subjected to them.

 

[NOBama]

WASHINGTON – President Obama’s national intelligence director told colleagues in a private memo last week that the harsh interrogation techniques banned by the White House did produce significant information that helped the nation in its struggle with terrorists.

“High value information came from interrogations in which those methods were used and provided a deeper understanding of the al Qa’ida organization that was attacking this country,” Adm. Dennis C. Blair, the intelligence director, wrote in a memo to his staff last Thursday.

Admiral Blair sent his memo on the same day the administration publicly released secret Bush administration legal memos authorizing the use of interrogation methods that the Obama White House has deemed to be illegal torture. Among other things, the Bush administration memos revealed that two captured Qaeda operatives were subjected to a form of near-drowning known as waterboarding a total of 266 times.

Admiral Blair’s assessment that the interrogation methods did produce important information was deleted from a condensed version of his memo released to the media last Thursday. Also deleted was a line in which he empathized with his predecessors who originally approved some of the harsh tactics after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001.

“I like to think I would not have approved those methods in the past,” he wrote, “but I do not fault those who made the decisions at that time, and I will absolutely defend those who carried out the interrogations within the orders they were given.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/22/us/politics/22blair.html?_r=1&hp

Conveniently left out of the press release?

He also defends those who carried out the interrogations?

Looks like someone in BO government has sense.

amazing
he wont last long

That was my first thought too. It should be interesting to see how this unfolds now. Kudo's to Blair for having some nads. (I hope Cheney has a job waiting for him if he sticks to his guns!).

 

[Bfgrn]

I'm sure the Nazi's had similar conversations, as they awaited being hanged in Nuremberg

 

[Iriemon]

My daughter sent me this:

"This was written by a Canadian woman, but oh how it also applies to the U.S. , U.K. and Australia.

Written by a housewife in New Brunswick, to her local newspaper. This is one ticked off lady.

'Are we fighting a war on terror or aren't we? Was it or was it not started by Islamic people who brought it to our shores on September 11, 2001 and have continually threatened to do so since?

Were people from all over the world not brutally murdered that day, in downtown Manhattan, across the Potomac from the nation's capitol and in a field in Pennsylvania ?

Did nearly three thousand men, women and children die a horrible, burning or crushing death that day, or didn't they?

And I'm supposed to care that a few Taliban were claiming to be tortured by a justice system of the nation they come from and are fighting against in a brutal insurgency.

I'll start caring when Osama bin Laden turns himself in and repents for incinerating all those innocent people on 9/11.

I'll care about the Koran when the fanatics in the Middle East start caring about the Holy Bible, the mere belief of which is a crime punishable by beheading in Afghanistan .

I'll care when these thugs tell the world they are sorry for hacking off Nick Berg's head while Berg screamed through his gurgling slashed throat.

I'll care when the cowardly so-called 'insurgents' in Afghanistan come out and fight like men instead of disrespecting their own religion by hiding in mosques.

I'll care when the mindless zealots who blow themselves up in search of nirvana care about the innocent children within range of their suicide bombs.

I'll care when the Canadian media stops pretending that their freedom of speech on stories is more important than the lives of the soldiers on the ground or their families waiting at home to hear about them when something happens.

In the meantime, when I hear a story about a CANADIAN soldier roughing up an Insurgent terrorist to obtain information, know this:

I don't care.

When I see a wounded terrorist get shot in the head when he is told not to move because he might be booby-trapped, you can take it to the bank:

I don't care.

When I hear that a prisoner, who was issued a Koran and a prayer mat, and 'fed special' food that is paid for by my tax dollars, is complaining that his holy book is being 'mishandled,' you can absolutely believe in your heart of hearts:

I don't care.

And oh, by the way, I've noticed that sometimes it's spelled 'Koran' and other times 'Quran.' Well, Jimmy Crack Corn you guessed it,

I don't care!!

And may I add:

'Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Soldiers don't have that problem.'

One last thought for the day:

Only five defining forces have ever offered to die for you:

1. Jesus Christ

2. The Canadian Soldier.

3. The British Soldier.

4. The US Soldier, and

5. The Australian Soldier

One died for your soul, the other 4 for your freedom.

If you agree with this viewpoint, pass this on to all your E-mail friends. Sooner or later, it'll get to the people responsible for this ridiculous behavior!

If you don't agree, then by all means hit the delete button. Should you choose the latter, then please don't complain when more atrocities committed by radical Muslims happen here in our great Country'."

Ah, yup.

Does she care if innocent people are locked away in jail for years and years without access to communication with their families, lawyers or judicial process?

Ah, nope.

 

[Iriemon]

I didn't dodge anything. Beheading and torture as PC described vs. water boarding? If they are going to torture our guys, water boarding wins.

Thanks for answering. So you think others should be able to torture US citizens or soldiers this way.

Not me.

you are too fucking stupid
as if they WOULDNT torture because we didnt
you are sorely lacking in historical perspective

They are evil. So we can be evil too.

 

[Skull Pilot]

They are evil. So we can be evil too.

They want to kill as many Americans as possible.
We want, or should want, to prevent that by any means possible.