Collective bargaining "rights"??

[Hum Dinger]

Here's another option:

The people of Wisconson can quit their jobs and stay at home and home school their children. They can also police their own streets, fight their own fires, build their own cars, roads and bridges, and desposed of their own waste.

Don't take kindly to that prospect?

Thn I suggest that you reevaluate the very real value of the union workers.

 

[Liability]

Here's another option:

The people of Wisconson can quit their jobs and stay at home and home school their children. They can also police their own streets, fight their own fires, build their own cars, roads and bridges, and desposed of their own waste.

Don't take kindly to that prospect?

Thn I suggest that you reevaluate the very real value of the union workers.

Imbecilic false dichotomies such as you present don't further meaningful debate.

The people can have teachers without unions. In fact, lots of school districts in my state proudly proclaim themselves as being the "Union Free School District."

The law prohibits them from striking. Unions that can't strike are not exactly powerhouses, and yet they still exert undue influence.

Firefighters can be non-union.

Cops can be non-union.

Sanitation crews can be non-union.

And to have a functioning civil society, they probably all should be non union.

Unions have had their place and sometimes still serve a valid role. But they are not an essential element of public service.

 

[Provocateur]

Hey, here's an idea:

What if State governments continued to negotiate with unions, as they've been doing for the past 60 years, and instead of screwing the working people of this country, they raised taxes on the wealthiest people in order to balance their budgets.

The only problem with that is that the wealthy own the Republican politicians so they'll keep twsiting their arms into doing anything but raise taxes.

But ultimately, they're going to fond out that it just isn't going to work.

They can force confrontations with the unions and lose, or they can let the goverments go into bankrutpcy - but then they'll be a total economic collapse and the wealthy will no longer be wealthy.

World Socialism rears it's ugly head!

Why do you feel entitled to rich people's money?

 

[The T]

Hey, I lived in New York back in the 60s & 70s, and it sure was disgusting when the sanitation workers went on strike - it pissed everyone off. Same with the teachers strike and just about every other strike.

But the unions won and that's all there was to it.

Welcome to capitalism! If you don't like economic contension move to China!

The simple truth is that collective bargaining forces management, or the general populace, to realize the true value of the workers. They may not like it, but who gives a shit.

It's better to have people resent you than it is to live in poverty.

Unions are not Capitalism. Unions are thuggery.

BULLSHIT! Unions negotiate the true value of the constituents. They may prevent the exploitation of the economically disadvantaged by the economically advantaged, but that's a whole lot better than a return to servitude.

Doing business is a priviledge, not a right. If you cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then you cannot do business.

And Which constituients are those?

 

[Stephanie]

All that the unions need to is get the sanitation union to go on strike and it's all over for Walker.

That's the nuke of the union negotiations.

Really? Is this your fianal answer? All it will do is bolster the disgust for Unions in the populace.
But if you feel secure? You just go with this.

LOL, no kidding. I hope they do it.

 

[Stephanie]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the state does or does not legislate. As long as the union poeple stick together they'll win.

All they have to do is withhold services - and there's nothing that the govenment can do.

Not passing legislation to undermine the unions, and continuing to negotiate will prevent an awful lot of suffering for the people of Wisconson - that's the only difference.

When push comes to shove the unions will win. We've been down this road many a time before.

You just go and suggest they do that. With people in the mood they are over this crap in Wisconsin, over 10% unemployment, food prices going up, gas prices going up.

I say GO FOR IT. SEE WHERE IT GETS ya. not sure someone would want to mention they are a Union Member.

 

[BenNatuf]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the state does or does not legislate. As long as the union poeple stick together they'll win.

All they have to do is withhold services - and there's nothing that the govenment can do.

Not passing legislation to undermine the unions, and continuing to negotiate will prevent an awful lot of suffering for the people of Wisconson - that's the only difference.

When push comes to shove the unions will win. We've been down this road many a time before.

You've heard of "help wanted" ads?

 

[The T]

In the end, it really doesn't matter what the state does or does not legislate. As long as the union poeple stick together they'll win.

All they have to do is withhold services - and there's nothing that the govenment can do.

Not passing legislation to undermine the unions, and continuing to negotiate will prevent an awful lot of suffering for the people of Wisconson - that's the only difference.

When push comes to shove the unions will win. We've been down this road many a time before.

How? By more bullying tactics? Threats of violence against a sitting Governor?

Are YOU sure that YOU wanna take that stance?

Odds are? YOU will lose. The people are fed up with the likes of YOU at their expense.

 

[Cecilie1200]

First Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


freedom of assembly


You can not tell Americans they can not get together and talk.

When they get together and talk they can deside to join forces and stick together to acheive a collective goal.


How anyone can think a group of any Americans can be told who they are allowed to group with is beyond me.

None of which is the same as, or has anything to do with, the concept of "collective bargaining rights".

They can get together and talk all they like. They can decide to protest together, strike together, whatever. BUT . . . the employer is under no obligation to pay any attention to their demands or negotiate with them as a group. Without "collective bargaining rights", he is free to insist that they negotiate individually, and to toss them out on their asses and replace them with employees who will negotiate individually if they won't.

THAT is what is meant by "collective bargaining rights".

 

[Cecilie1200]

I think they have a right to do that. As in, they can as a group protest their work environment and demand another agreement.

But by that same logic, their employer has a right to then fire their spoiled asses and hire someone else who will actually be grateful for a job and show up for work.

In a right to work state thats true, but WI law curreently does not allow the employer to fire them. It also does not require the employer to bargain with them.

As i understand it, the workers have the right to unionize under freedom of assembly, and the right to appoint people to speak for them under freedom of speech. What they don't have is the right to compell anyone to bargain with them or even to acknowledge them.

Seems to me that if they refuse to show up for work because they aren't getting their way, that would be grounds for firing. God knows, MOST people in this country would lose their jobs for non-attendance.

 

[BenNatuf]

What are you high on?!?!

The economies of the Right-to-work states are in the dumps. Only a handful of the industrial centers in the Union States are doing poorly - and those are getting better fast.

Hell, we barely even have a real estate slump here in the Northeast.

The only migration is the elderly - like always - and that just for the weather.

speaking of "high"

The most bankrupt states are California, with $6.8 billion in borrowings, Michigan ($3.4 billion), New York ($2.4 billion), Pennsylvania ($2.2 billion) and Ohio ($1.9 billion).

A Majority Of States Are Now Insolvent: Quantifying The Disastrous Unemployment Situation | zero hedge

So what? Bigger economies have bigger debts. Florida is right up there in debt and foreclosures - and it's a right to work state, as is South Carolina.

You can't compare the economies of California and Wyoming. More people and more industry means more unemployment during economic down turns.

The fact is the economies of the right to work states, for the most part, suck during the best of times.

Arguing facts with unsupported assertions and unsubstantiated opinions doesn't realy cut it. The top five states there are all closed shop states, TX and FL and a few others are bigger and they ain't there hoss.

States with the lowest unemployment rates

1 NORTH DAKOTA 3.8
2 NEBRASKA 4.4
3 SOUTH DAKOTA 4.6
4 NEW HAMPSHIRE 5.5
5 VERMONT 5.8
6 IOWA 6.3
7 HAWAII 6.4
7 WYOMING 6.4
9 VIRGINIA 6.7
10 KANSAS 6.8
10 OKLAHOMA 6.8

I'm not sure about VT but I belive the rest of them are right to work states.

States with the highest unemployment rates

41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.8
42 MISSISSIPPI 10.1
43 GEORGIA 10.2
44 KENTUCKY 10.3
45 OREGON 10.6
46 SOUTH CAROLINA 10.7
47 RHODE ISLAND 11.5
48 MICHIGAN 11.7
49 FLORIDA 12.0
50 CALIFORNIA 12.5
51 NEVADA 14.5

appear to be five of each with 4 of the bottom 5 all being closed shop, not entirely sure about NV so it may be 3 of the bottom 5.

I guess now you'll be coming out with another unsupported opinion.

 

[The T]

speaking of "high"

A Majority Of States Are Now Insolvent: Quantifying The Disastrous Unemployment Situation | zero hedge

So what? Bigger economies have bigger debts. Florida is right up there in debt and foreclosures - and it's a right to work state, as is South Carolina.

You can't compare the economies of California and Wyoming. More people and more industry means more unemployment during economic down turns.

The fact is the economies of the right to work states, for the most part, suck during the best of times.

Arguing facts with unsupported assertions and unsubstantiated opinions doesn't realy cut it. The top five states there are all closed shop states, TX and FL and a few others are bigger and they ain't there hoss.

States with the lowest unemployment rates

1 NORTH DAKOTA 3.8
2 NEBRASKA 4.4
3 SOUTH DAKOTA 4.6
4 NEW HAMPSHIRE 5.5
5 VERMONT 5.8
6 IOWA 6.3
7 HAWAII 6.4
7 WYOMING 6.4
9 VIRGINIA 6.7
10 KANSAS 6.8
10 OKLAHOMA 6.8

I'm not sure about VT but I belive the rest of them are right to work states.

States with the highest unemployment rates

41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.8
42 MISSISSIPPI 10.1
43 GEORGIA 10.2
44 KENTUCKY 10.3
45 OREGON 10.6
46 SOUTH CAROLINA 10.7
47 RHODE ISLAND 11.5
48 MICHIGAN 11.7
49 FLORIDA 12.0
50 CALIFORNIA 12.5
51 NEVADA 14.5

appear to be five of each with 4 of the bottom 5 all being closed shop, not entirely sure about NV so it may be 3 of the bottom 5.

I guess now you'll be coming out with another unsupported opinion.

'
FLORIDA is a right to work State...

 

[syrenn]

Hey, I lived in New York back in the 60s & 70s, and it sure was disgusting when the sanitation workers went on strike - it pissed everyone off. Same with the teachers strike and just about every other strike.

But the unions won and that's all there was to it.

Welcome to capitalism! If you don't like economic contension move to China!

The simple truth is that collective bargaining forces management, or the general populace, to realize the true value of the workers. They may not like it, but who gives a shit.

It's better to have people resent you than it is to live in poverty.

Unions are not Capitalism. Unions are thuggery.

BULLSHIT! Unions negotiate the true value of the constituents. They may prevent the exploitation of the economically disadvantaged by the economically advantaged, but that's a whole lot better than a return to servitude.

Doing business is a priviledge, not a right. If you cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then you cannot do business.

Unions "negotiate" like the mob. They use the same thug tactics as organized gangsters. They prevent anyone from competing with them. Unions extort money from anyone who wants to work in a shop they control.

Working for a business is a privilege and not a right. If an employee cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then they should be FIRED. Unions are the ones protecting the lazy slugs.

 

[The T]

Unions are not Capitalism. Unions are thuggery.

BULLSHIT! Unions negotiate the true value of the constituents. They may prevent the exploitation of the economically disadvantaged by the economically advantaged, but that's a whole lot better than a return to servitude.

Doing business is a priviledge, not a right. If you cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then you cannot do business.

Unions "negotiate" like the mob. They use the same thug tactics as organized gangsters. They prevent anyone from competing with them. Unions extort money from anyone who wants to work in a shop they control.

Working for a business is a privilege and not a right. If an employee cannot maintain reasonable employment standards then they should be FIRED. Unions are the ones protecting the lazy slugs.

Absolutely.

 

[thereisnospoon]

This is nothing but a political attack. The unions that support Walker are protected by Walker. Now let's hear again about how this is for the budget of WI

Really?...Name those unions.
Here's the deal Major Tom, the Wisconsin legislature WILL pass a law that will severely limit collective bargaining rights of public employees......It's a done deal.
BTW Other states are considering the same as well. The time for high salaried cushy benefitted, gold plate pensioned public employees is OVER.

 

[Stephanie]

This is nothing but a political attack. The unions that support Walker are protected by Walker. Now let's hear again about how this is for the budget of WI

Really?...Name those unions.
Here's the deal Major Tom, the Wisconsin legislature WILL pass a law that will severely limit collective bargaining rights of public employees......It's a done deal.
BTW Other states are considering the same as well. The time for high salaried cushy benefitted, gold plate pensioned public employees is OVER.

yep, and the majority of the people are for it.

 

[BenNatuf]

So what? Bigger economies have bigger debts. Florida is right up there in debt and foreclosures - and it's a right to work state, as is South Carolina.

You can't compare the economies of California and Wyoming. More people and more industry means more unemployment during economic down turns.

The fact is the economies of the right to work states, for the most part, suck during the best of times.

Arguing facts with unsupported assertions and unsubstantiated opinions doesn't realy cut it. The top five states there are all closed shop states, TX and FL and a few others are bigger and they ain't there hoss.

States with the lowest unemployment rates

I'm not sure about VT but I belive the rest of them are right to work states.

States with the highest unemployment rates

41 NORTH CAROLINA 9.8
42 MISSISSIPPI 10.1
43 GEORGIA 10.2
44 KENTUCKY 10.3
45 OREGON 10.6
46 SOUTH CAROLINA 10.7
47 RHODE ISLAND 11.5
48 MICHIGAN 11.7
49 FLORIDA 12.0
50 CALIFORNIA 12.5
51 NEVADA 14.5

appear to be five of each with 4 of the bottom 5 all being closed shop, not entirely sure about NV so it may be 3 of the bottom 5.

I guess now you'll be coming out with another unsupported opinion.

'
FLORIDA is a right to work State...

When did I say it wasn't? CA, MI, RI and I believe NV are not, that would be 4 out of 5 of the bottom 5 (or 3 if NV ain't). thats what I said.

 

[Cecilie1200]

If I were a voter in WI, I would want to know where the hell these 14 are, and if they're still holed up somewhere like a bunch of fucking cowards, I'd want to know who is paying their bill, and then I'd be demanding they either report for the job they are being paid to do or resign. Either would be fine.

Fucking cowardly little critters. It'll be a riot if any of these 14 ever decide to run for POTUS.... the right will have a wonderful time reminding them of this little fiasco. LMAO.

If I lived in WI, I'd be wanting to see a bill proposed wherein attendance at and participation in the legislature X number of days per session is required of all state legislators (barring real, catastrophic illness, family crises, etc.), and if the requirement is not met, either they don't get paid for that session at all, or they are summarily replaced by the governor.

As I said before, anyone else in the US would have their pay docked or lose their job for refusing to show up and work. Why should politicians be any different?

 

[Cecilie1200]

It wasn't that long ago, remember when libs were outraged at Tea Party activists? Remember how the left was shocked, I say shocked that little old ladies and grey haired conservative men would actually engage in the political process? There were cries of anarchy and treason on the left. Now we have municipal workers breaking the law with sick-outs and trying to intimidate the poor Wisconsin governor and the left thinks it's another day in the park. Cowardly democrat state senators probably think they are entitled to a pay check while they sit in a bar in Illinois. What a bunch.

Would you care to show me where the workers are breaking any laws?

It is illegal for teachers to strike.

Calling in sick when you are not actually sick is fraud, and last time I checked that is illegal.

Taking students off of school property requires parental permission slips in most states. That is another way they are breaking the law.

Passing off documents you know are false, like the doctors slips some teachers are getting signed, is fraud, filing a false report, and perjury.

Shall I go on, or do you get the point?

And convincing the students to leave campus during school hours on their own is contributing to the delinquency of minors.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Bottom line is that because of the last election, the conservatives have the votes to do something the minority disagrees with. So the minority is trying to spin this as a democracy issue, with protests.

If the majority has it wrong, the minority should show up, vote against it, playing it up big. Wait for the next election cycle, they'll win in a landslide, right?

That only works with adults. Spoiled children, on the other hand, pick up all their toys and stomp away in a snit.