Collectivism

[Votto]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm? Those that do know it and are fond of it, who are your collecivist heros historically? Those that don't know history and are fond of collecitivism, shouldn't you be more informed of the historical roots of your ideology before embracing it?

Additionally, what are our rights under collectivism? I know what my individual rights are under the Constitution, but what are our collective rights? It seems to me that every day someone is chipping away at my individual rights all in the name of our collective rights. Trouble is, is that I don't know what they hell that is exactly. Can anyone tell me?

 

[Agit8r]

Which "collective" rights are you talking about?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to breathe air that isn't deadly?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to drink unpolluted water?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to not be killed at work?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to have at least that level of subsistence that was available in the natural state?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to be equal before the law?

"We must not conclude merely upon a man's haranguing upon liberty, and using the charming sound, that he is fit to be trusted with the liberties of his country. It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their own liberty, — to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who are poorer or weaker than themselves"
-- Samuel Adams; from an untitled essay in the Independent Advertiser (1748)

 

[ScienceRocks]

Collectivism=communal.

A type of pure communism. Right?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. It relies on the dependency of one person on a society, or civilization; instead of those things relying on the person. Even classical liberals such as Ludwig von Mises thought the idea was flawed.

"On the other hand the application of the basic ideas of collectivism cannot result in anything but social disintegration and the perpetuation of armed conflict. It is true that every variety of collectivism promises eternal peace starting with the day of its own decisive victory and the final overthrow and extermination of all other ideologies and their supporters. ... As soon as a faction has succeeded in winning the support of the majority of citizens and thereby attained control of the government machine, it is free to deny to the minority all those democratic rights by means of which it itself has previously carried on its own struggle for supremacy."

So what's the plan for our liberals now?

 

[Agit8r]

Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. It relies on the dependency of one person on a society, or civilization; instead of those things relying on the person. Even classical liberals such as Ludwig von Mises thought the idea was flawed.

"On the other hand the application of the basic ideas of collectivism cannot result in anything but social disintegration and the perpetuation of armed conflict. It is true that every variety of collectivism promises eternal peace starting with the day of its own decisive victory and the final overthrow and extermination of all other ideologies and their supporters. ... As soon as a faction has succeeded in winning the support of the majority of citizens and thereby attained control of the government machine, it is free to deny to the minority all those democratic rights by means of which it itself has previously carried on its own struggle for supremacy."

So what's the plan for our liberals now?

Von Mises was a sad little man who preferred fascism to democracy, just like the "libertarian" Pinochet-apologists after him:

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history"
-- Ludwig Von Mises; from 'Liberalism' Chap 1, Sect 10

Fortunately it was Democracy that saved Europe instead.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm? Those that do know it and are fond of it, who are your collecivist heros historically? Those that don't know history and are fond of collecitivism, shouldn't you be more informed of the historical roots of your ideology before embracing it?

Additionally, what are our rights under collectivism? I know what my individual rights are under the Constitution, but what are our collective rights? It seems to me that every day someone is chipping away at my individual rights all in the name of our collective rights. Trouble is, is that I don't know what they hell that is exactly. Can anyone tell me?

Bullshit thread.

Your individual rights are intact. Nobody....especially not liberals like me...is interested in chipping away at individual rights. The USC is the law of the land....regardless of what your political ideology is.

You found a new word to fuck around with. It is meaningless in reality, isn't it?

 

[TemplarKormac]

Collectivism is the opposite of individualism. It relies on the dependency of one person on a society, or civilization; instead of those things relying on the person. Even classical liberals such as Ludwig von Mises thought the idea was flawed.

"On the other hand the application of the basic ideas of collectivism cannot result in anything but social disintegration and the perpetuation of armed conflict. It is true that every variety of collectivism promises eternal peace starting with the day of its own decisive victory and the final overthrow and extermination of all other ideologies and their supporters. ... As soon as a faction has succeeded in winning the support of the majority of citizens and thereby attained control of the government machine, it is free to deny to the minority all those democratic rights by means of which it itself has previously carried on its own struggle for supremacy."

So what's the plan for our liberals now?

Von Mises was a sad little man who preferred fascism to democracy, just like the "libertarian" Pinochet-apologists after him:

"It cannot be denied that Fascism and similar movements aiming at the establishment of dictatorships are full of the best intentions and that their intervention has, for the moment, saved European civilization. The merit that Fascism has thereby won for itself will live on eternally in history"
-- Ludwig Von Mises; from 'Liberalism' Chap 1, Sect 10

Fortunately it was Democracy that saved Europe instead.

 

[editec]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

I don't think there is a "history" of collectivism.

There are plenty examples of collectivism found in history and of course in prehistory, too.

Historical anarchist collectives don't last very long.

Those that do know it and are fond of it, who are your collecivist heros historically?

The Anarchists of Europe seem to love the post 18th century revolutionary Paris Commune and the Spanish communes that sprang up during Spains civil war of the 1930s. I think parts of Germany flirted with communes during its era of revolutions in the 1840s(date?)

Those that don't know history and are fond of collecitivism, shouldn't you be more informed of the historical roots of your ideology before embracing it?

Sure, do educate us.

Additionally, what are our rights under collectivism?

Depends on the collective, doesn't it?

I know what my individual rights are under the Constitution, but what are our collective rights?

In constitutional theory your collective right is "equal justice under the law".

Now, do you think that our de rfacto rights are living up to our theoretical rights?

It seems to me that every day someone is chipping away at my individual rights all in the name of our collective rights.

Yeah I think you are right.

I think the tension between individual rights and community rights have always been with us.

Trouble is, is that I don't know what they hell that is exactly. Can anyone tell me?

As I said, in this nation, your communial right is the right to equal justice under the law as delineated in the Constitution and the other laws of the land.

 

[FA_Q2]

As I said, in this nation, your communial right is the right to equal justice under the law as delineated in the Constitution and the other laws of the land.

How is that a collective right?

I would call that an INDIVIDUAL right to be treated equally as others are treated under law. Where is the collectivism in that.

A collective right would be something that you as an individual are not afforded but ‘society’ is afforded. Essentially, no right at all but it has been argued (erroneously and only to try and destroy the right entirely) that the second is a ‘collective’ right in that society has the ‘right’ to be armed but you do not.

Why would you call equal protection a ‘collective’ right when it has nothing to do with giving the collective anything but has everything to do with giving the individual what the collective has.

 

[LoneLaugher]

Some people should avoid philosophical and ideological discussions.

 

[Mac1958]

.

Ugh.

All civilizations include "collective", "communal" elements.

I'd think the question would be at what point those elements become a net drag (via dependence, sloth, corruption, etc.) on both the citizens within those civilizations and the civilizations themselves.

.

 

[Antares]

Practice what you preach kid, you look pretty stupid flinging shit from the sidelines.

Some people should avoid philosophical and ideological discussions.

 

[konradv]

Collectivism=communal.

A type of pure communism. Right?

Families are collectives. That's the problem with simplistic arguments, they're easily shown to be ludicrous. Collectivism vs. individualism isn't an either/or proposition. Both dynamics are important.

 

[DiamondDave]

There is no 'collective right'.. IMHO, The ideal of collectivism came out of 2 camps.. Those who wished to utilize the weak, sheepish, lazy masses by usurping control in the name of equalized outcome (though the same rules did not apply to those in charge)... And the utopian lazy themselves, who think their self appointed know-it-all-ism gives them the right to sap off the actual production of others.... The power hungry snicker and smirk as the mass collectivists preach their little kumbaya dreams

 

[editec]

As I said, in this nation, your communial right is the right to equal justice under the law as delineated in the Constitution and the other laws of the land.

How is that a collective right?

WE all own that right thanks to our laws which are the EBODIMENT of the USA collective.

Seriously, you didn't understand that?

I would call that an INDIVIDUAL right to be treated equally as others are treated under law. Where is the collectivism in that.

I'm not really much interested in getting into a semantics debate about what the word collective means, sport, It lead nowhere and we learn nothing whatever from the exercise.

A collective right would be something that you as an individual are not afforded but ‘society’ is afforded.

Is that your special definition of it?

Okay.

Essentially, no right at all but it has been argued (erroneously and only to try and destroy the right entirely) that the second is a ‘collective’ right in that society has the ‘right’ to be armed but you do not.

Yes, I am familiar with that POV. But in point of fact YOU DO AGREE with that in principle, I suspect.

Do you support my right to make bombs, own chemical, biological or chemical weapons?

My guess is you don't.

But do you spport the right of our government to have those things?

My guess is you do.

Does that make you a collectivist?

Because CLEARLY the military is a COLLECTIVIST organization.

Why would you call equal protection a ‘collective’ right when it has nothing to do with giving the collective anything but has everything to do with giving the individual what the collective has.

I would do that because I apparently unlike you, understand the differnce between when the word COLLECTIVE is being used as a NOUN and when it is being used as an ADJECTIVE.

I mean seriously kid, if you want to get into a semantics debate you at least need to know how our language works.

Apparently you don't quite, yet.

 

[konradv]

There is no 'collective right'.. IMHO, The ideal of collectivism came out of 2 camps.. Those who wished to utilize the weak, sheepish, lazy masses by usurping control in the name of equalized outcome (though the same rules did not apply to those in charge)... And the utopian lazy themselves, who think their self appointed know-it-all-ism gives them the right to sap off the actual production of others.... The power hungry snicker and smirk as the mass collectivists preach their little kumbaya dreams

The "kumbaya dreams" are mostly on the side of "true believers" who think the progress man has made is all the work of individuals. It's not an either/or question.

 

[DiamondDave]

There is no 'collective right'.. IMHO, The ideal of collectivism came out of 2 camps.. Those who wished to utilize the weak, sheepish, lazy masses by usurping control in the name of equalized outcome (though the same rules did not apply to those in charge)... And the utopian lazy themselves, who think their self appointed know-it-all-ism gives them the right to sap off the actual production of others.... The power hungry snicker and smirk as the mass collectivists preach their little kumbaya dreams

The "kumbaya dreams" are mostly on the side of "true believers" who think the progress man has made is all the work of individuals. It's not an either/or question.

The progress of man is certainly not a result of those looking to only exist off of the productivity of others and the forced charity system... the progress has come from the motivated individuals who sometimes work in groups (whether it be thru the motivation of company profit, war, etc) to use their ability, ideas, and actual PRODUCTIVITY to accomplish something

The kumbaya dreams of shared outcomes and having their 'needs' taken care of by the collective are not what has advanced the human race.. it has been part of what has held it back in recent history

 

[Agit8r]

There is no 'collective right'.. IMHO, The ideal of collectivism came out of 2 camps.. Those who wished to utilize the weak, sheepish, lazy masses by usurping control in the name of equalized outcome (though the same rules did not apply to those in charge)... And the utopian lazy themselves, who think their self appointed know-it-all-ism gives them the right to sap off the actual production of others.... The power hungry snicker and smirk as the mass collectivists preach their little kumbaya dreams

The "kumbaya dreams" are mostly on the side of "true believers" who think the progress man has made is all the work of individuals. It's not an either/or question.

The progress of man is certainly not a result of those looking to only exist off of the productivity of others and the forced charity system... the progress has come from the motivated individuals who sometimes work in groups (whether it be thru the motivation of company profit, war, etc) to use their ability, ideas, and actual PRODUCTIVITY to accomplish something

The kumbaya dreams of shared outcomes and having their 'needs' taken care of by the collective are not what has advanced the human race.. it has been part of what has held it back in recent history

uncanny....

Godwin's Law Review: You Did Build That!

 

[DiamondDave]

uh huh

 

[peach174]

Collectivism a small list of the countries who use this ideology
USSR
China
N. Korea
Cuba
People who believe in collectivism
Rousseau
Hegel
Marx
Stalin

Collectivism - Authoritarian
Individualism - Freedom

Collectivism - devoid of any individual responsibility, forced to pay for communitarian ideals by taxes.
Welfare and entitlements as a right done by Government control.
Government controlled means of production and distribution. Getting something for nothing.
Keeps the poor in poverty.
This way of thinking gets rid of any instinctive moral sense.
Individualism - responsibility to self and family, freedom to choose which communitarian ideals you want to support.

collectivism - enslaves mankind and robs them of freedom (our Constitutional rights) and makes them puppets of the government.

individuals - freedom and liberty to exercise their God given free agency.

Summary of collectivism
A growing tide of political collectivist ideals often lead to:
•Loss of individual rights to an ever growing and powerful state.
•A degradation of moral agency.
•An overall reduction in the standard of living.
•Malnutrition and death due to the inherent inability of “planned” economies to meet market demand.
•Social disintegration and the perpetuation of armed conflict.
•Totalitarianism