Collectivism

[Agit8r]

This way of thinking gets rid of any instinctive moral sense.

By "way of thinking" I presume you mean like:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." -- Acts 4:32-35

 

[peach174]

This way of thinking gets rid of any instinctive moral sense.

By "way of thinking" I presume you mean like:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." -- Acts 4:32-35

It's called individual freedom.
They did it voluntary and and was not forced to do it.
Everyone who wanted to, gave them food and shelter when they traveled and were not forced to so.

 

[Agit8r]

This way of thinking gets rid of any instinctive moral sense.

By "way of thinking" I presume you mean like:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." -- Acts 4:32-35

It's called individual freedom.
They did it voluntary and and was not forced to do it.
Everyone who wanted to, gave them food and shelter when they traveled and were not forced to so.

So a different way of thinking???

 

[peach174]

By "way of thinking" I presume you mean like:

"And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need." -- Acts 4:32-35

It's called individual freedom.
They did it voluntary and and was not forced to do it.
Everyone who wanted to, gave them food and shelter when they traveled and were not forced to so.

So a different way of thinking???

What part of forced to do something vs freedom to choose, is it that you don't understand?

 

[BreezeWood]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

 

[editec]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

Other examples of terrible American collectivism?

The MINUTEMEN

The SONS of LIBERTY

The Continental Congress

The Continental army.

Yeah, people COLLECTIVELY seeking any kind of change are OBVIOUSLY all just like communist North Koreans.

Everybdy can see that.

 

[Mr. Peepers]

Bullshit thread.

Your individual rights are intact. Nobody....especially not liberals like me...is interested in chipping away at individual rights. The USC is the law of the land....regardless of what your political ideology is.

You found a new word to fuck around with. It is meaningless in reality, isn't it?

This is especially breathakingly stupid (and deliciously ironic) considering that the only group activelty taking our rights away is the private sector - including our 1st amendment rights. They're paying damn good money for their goodies, by god! But the morons still bow before the mega-corps like good little sheep for the slaughter.

 

[peach174]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

Nope.
Our Founders were against a Federal Income Tax system, to be taken from our individual citizens. We did not have one until Progressives took over our government in 1913.

 

[peach174]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

Other examples of terrible American collectivism?

The MINUTEMEN

The SONS of LIBERTY

The Continental Congress

The Continental army.

Yeah, people COLLECTIVELY seeking any kind of change are OBVIOUSLY all just like communist North Koreans.

Everybdy can see that.

I see that many are confused between all of the above - that is voluntary and a Government that forces you.

 

[peach174]

Bullshit thread.

Your individual rights are intact. Nobody....especially not liberals like me...is interested in chipping away at individual rights. The USC is the law of the land....regardless of what your political ideology is.

You found a new word to fuck around with. It is meaningless in reality, isn't it?

This is especially breathakingly stupid (and deliciously ironic) considering that the only group activelty taking our rights away is the private sector - including our 1st amendment rights. They're paying damn good money for their goodies, by god! But the morons still bow before the mega-corps like good little sheep for the slaughter.

If we changed our tax system that crony capitalism would no longer be a problem.

 

[Votto]

Some people should avoid philosophical and ideological discussions.

I say we all need to have them, or does it scare you?

 

[Votto]

Who here knows the history of collectivsm?

THE UNITED STATES CONSTITUTION

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

Nope.
Our Founders were against a Federal Income Tax system, to be taken from our individual citizens. We did not have one until Progressives took over our government in 1913.

To be fair, they did allow state taxation. The idea was that through direct representation the people could keep their taxes in check by voting them out if they became to oppressive.

However, today we have a Congress that collects the federal income tax. What we now wind up with is a Congress with only a 13% approval rating, yet they keep getting elected. This is because everyone likes how their state representative loots the federal treasury, but hates representatives from other states looting the treasury. It was never meant to be this way. Now we have a "democratic" system with only a 13% approval rating.

 

[Votto]

Which "collective" rights are you talking about?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to breathe air that isn't deadly?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to drink unpolluted water?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to not be killed at work?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to have at least that level of subsistence that was available in the natural state?

The right of EVERY INDIVIDUAL to be equal before the law?

"We must not conclude merely upon a man's haranguing upon liberty, and using the charming sound, that he is fit to be trusted with the liberties of his country. It is not unfrequent to hear men declaim loudly upon liberty, who, if we may judge by the whole tenor of their actions, mean nothing else by it but their own liberty, — to oppress without control or the restraint of laws all who are poorer or weaker than themselves"
-- Samuel Adams; from an untitled essay in the Independent Advertiser (1748)

The idea is that you should let men be free so long as you don't infringe on the freedom of others.

So where do you exactly draw the line? By the lefts standard, my very existence "pollutes" the environment as I sit here and

So what should be done to me? I am polluting YOUR environment. What is the collective good in such an example? I guess whoever makes the laws gets to decide what is done with me.

Interestingly, FDR tried to pass a second bill of rights knowns as "positive rights". Essentially he tried to come up with "collective rights". These rights are the right to health care, the right to retirement, the right to a "fair wage" etc, etc. Do we have these collective rights today? Sure. We have the right to health care now according to Obamacare. We have the right to retirement according to social security etc, etc. So we do now have collective rights as those on the left seek to expand these rights.

However. looking at these rights more closely, what exactly are my rights to health care and retirement etc? It seems to me that social security is the mere whim of a bureaucrat. I have no rights to it other than what those in power tell me I have. Likewise, Medicare turns more people down for health care than private insurance. So what exactly is my right to health care? In fact, with Obamacare my care will probably be effected by longer lines to get health care. In socialist countries the wait is much longer. This means that if you have cancer and are in such a system, you are screwed. In fact, those seeking cancer treatment in socialist countries have a far higher mortatily and morbitidy rate than in the US. So here is an example where people are being harmed by the "collective good". How can this be, and what should be done about it?

 

[peach174]

In the United States it began ~ 1776 and has continued to flourish ever since.

Nope.
Our Founders were against a Federal Income Tax system, to be taken from our individual citizens. We did not have one until Progressives took over our government in 1913.

To be fair, they did allow state taxation. The idea was that through direct representation the people could keep their taxes in check by voting them out if they became to oppressive.

However, today we have a Congress that collects the federal income tax. What we now wind up with is a Congress with only a 13% approval rating, yet they keep getting elected. This is because everyone likes how their state representative loots the federal treasury, but hates representatives from other states looting the treasury. It was never meant to be this way. Now we have a "democratic" system with only a 13% approval rating.

State tax was done fairly.
One example was that state tax was collected for the churches for their up keep, but Jews and Muslims were exempt because they did not believe in Jesus.
We need to change the tax system that we have right now.
Get rid of the IRS and the tax preparers. We are all getting robbed by them, for those of us that pay taxes, that is.