Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[R.C. Christian]

Well, if we don't want people in the northeast preaching to us about our confederate flags and talking down to us about the real causes of the civil war etc then it's probably a good idea to let them have their mosque, love their mosque, or even build it and burn it down if it pleases them. The point is it's none of my business, it doesn't affect me, and I don't care.

 

[idb]

Look, whoever wanted to put it there had every right under our laws. So that's not debatable. I will say, however, that the decision to put it there was highly insensitive. Just my opinion.

You might be right...however the intention might still be noble.
It seems to me that most of the opposition accuses the proponents of malicious intent without being prepared to consider that maybe the purpose really is as honourable as is claimed.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

True.
It also doesn't really matter what the opponents label it as. What matters is what it will be used for.
The thing is that the opponents have chosen the most inflammatory labels that they can come up with, knowing that this will get the support of the uncritical masses that only read headlines and believe what ever they are told by their choice of talkback host.

Up until two years ago it was a mosque. Then uproar and news of what was being built it became a community center. It's a moquse if it has a prayer roon for islm it's a mosque if no other religion will be allowed to use it.

Can you please provide a link to two years ago where it is called a mosque? I'm not doubting you but am interested to compare with what I have found. You have clearly researched this more successfully than me.

The earliest I can find is an announcement in December 2009.
In that Bloomberg said that he had been told about it the previous September but nothing was made public until the announcement above.

Can you provide a link that show it has never been reference as a mosque by the people whoi applied for a permit?

 

[editec]

I'm going to have to adamantly disagree with you. Given the chance I balkanize this nation to the fullest extent possible. As a southernor I have absolutely nothing whatsoever in common with people in the northeast for example. I'm sure for any native southernor that is equally true to some degree.

You don't have that choice. The southern states..well that land..belongs to the United States of America.

You..do have a choice to leave. No one is stopping you.

It won't last so I won't have to leave nor would I. The problem is the United States is already in it's death throws and no offense, but it's demise cannot come soon enough.

When the food stops coming and your cell phones stop working then people with land like myself (and no it doesn't belong to the United States thank you) will prosper while the suburbanites perish with their plastic life skills. I'm perfectly prepared, willing and able to practice what I preach and it has nothing to do with racism or the mentality of the civil war although I am a re-enactor, writer, historian and an advanced collector of civil war antiquities.

This entire argument that people present against the south with such unwavering convictions is infantile and weak at best. It makes me blush because I'm so embarassed by some for some of you. This isn't pride speaking, rather simple pity for the shameless preoccupation some statists have with self-righteous presumptions about the civil war and the south in general. We couldn't be more dissimiliar I'm afraid.

If society totally collspses as your are predicting I put the probability that you'll thrive on your land at about 0.0001%


There are about 200,000,000 urbanites who are not going to sit quietly in their homes starving to death.

They will start looking for food and guess what?

They're going to come to you place and mine and when they do your Robinson Crusoe dreams are going to come to an end.

 

[idb]

Up until two years ago it was a mosque. Then uproar and news of what was being built it became a community center. It's a moquse if it has a prayer roon for islm it's a mosque if no other religion will be allowed to use it.

Can you please provide a link to two years ago where it is called a mosque? I'm not doubting you but am interested to compare with what I have found. You have clearly researched this more successfully than me.

The earliest I can find is an announcement in December 2009.
In that Bloomberg said that he had been told about it the previous September but nothing was made public until the announcement above.

Can you provide a link that show it has never been reference as a mosque by the people whoi applied for a permit?

As I understand it the first announcement was in the NY Times on December 8 2009.
I'm not allowed to post a link as I don't have enough posts under my belt yet but i shouldn't be a difficult search.
In it the proponents acknowledge that it might be a hard sell.
I have no axe to grind, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

 

[R.C. Christian]

You don't have that choice. The southern states..well that land..belongs to the United States of America.

You..do have a choice to leave. No one is stopping you.

It won't last so I won't have to leave nor would I. The problem is the United States is already in it's death throws and no offense, but it's demise cannot come soon enough.

When the food stops coming and your cell phones stop working then people with land like myself (and no it doesn't belong to the United States thank you) will prosper while the suburbanites perish with their plastic life skills. I'm perfectly prepared, willing and able to practice what I preach and it has nothing to do with racism or the mentality of the civil war although I am a re-enactor, writer, historian and an advanced collector of civil war antiquities.

This entire argument that people present against the south with such unwavering convictions is infantile and weak at best. It makes me blush because I'm so embarassed by some for some of you. This isn't pride speaking, rather simple pity for the shameless preoccupation some statists have with self-righteous presumptions about the civil war and the south in general. We couldn't be more dissimiliar I'm afraid.

If society totally collspses as your are predicting I put the probability that you'll thrive on your land at about 0.0001%


There are about 200,000,000 urbanites who are not going to sit quietly in their homes starving to death.

They will start looking for food and guess what?

They're going to come to you place and mine and when they do your Robinson Crusoe dreams are going to come to an end.

I don't think you're catching my drift exactly, but in any event the person best prepared has a better chance than he who isn't.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Can you please provide a link to two years ago where it is called a mosque? I'm not doubting you but am interested to compare with what I have found. You have clearly researched this more successfully than me.

The earliest I can find is an announcement in December 2009.
In that Bloomberg said that he had been told about it the previous September but nothing was made public until the announcement above.

Can you provide a link that show it has never been reference as a mosque by the people whoi applied for a permit?

As I understand it the first announcement was in the NY Times on December 8 2009.
I'm not allowed to post a link as I don't have enough posts under my belt yet but i shouldn't be a difficult search.
In it the proponents acknowledge that it might be a hard sell.
I have no axe to grind, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

Act! for America - Islamic Mosque Built at 9/11 Ground Zero: Muslim business leader: 'This has hand of the divine written over it'

 

[editec]

It won't last so I won't have to leave nor would I. The problem is the United States is already in it's death throws and no offense, but it's demise cannot come soon enough.

When the food stops coming and your cell phones stop working then people with land like myself (and no it doesn't belong to the United States thank you) will prosper while the suburbanites perish with their plastic life skills. I'm perfectly prepared, willing and able to practice what I preach and it has nothing to do with racism or the mentality of the civil war although I am a re-enactor, writer, historian and an advanced collector of civil war antiquities.

This entire argument that people present against the south with such unwavering convictions is infantile and weak at best. It makes me blush because I'm so embarassed by some for some of you. This isn't pride speaking, rather simple pity for the shameless preoccupation some statists have with self-righteous presumptions about the civil war and the south in general. We couldn't be more dissimiliar I'm afraid.

If society totally collspses as your are predicting I put the probability that you'll thrive on your land at about 0.0001%


There are about 200,000,000 urbanites who are not going to sit quietly in their homes starving to death.

They will start looking for food and guess what?

They're going to come to you place and mine and when they do your Robinson Crusoe dreams are going to come to an end.

I don't think you're catching my drift exactly, but in any event the person best prepared has a better chance than he who isn't.

I caught the sentiments of your imagined future shadenfrueden quite well.

In the very unlikely chance that society breaks down like you described (read: total collapse) it not going to work out for you like you imagine it will.

What you might get from having land to farm, is a leg up on the urbanites if our depression continues to get worse, but the fabric of society doesn't TOTALLY unravel.

That is assuming, of course, that you own your land outright and your local community of parasitic local government officials doesn't tax you out of it before they lose all power to condemn your land and send cops to throw you off it for not paying your taxes.

That's a big if because usually the last people to lose power when society is totally falling apart are the same damned pigs who caused it in the first place.

 

[R.C. Christian]

If society totally collspses as your are predicting I put the probability that you'll thrive on your land at about 0.0001%


There are about 200,000,000 urbanites who are not going to sit quietly in their homes starving to death.

They will start looking for food and guess what?

They're going to come to you place and mine and when they do your Robinson Crusoe dreams are going to come to an end.

I don't think you're catching my drift exactly, but in any event the person best prepared has a better chance than he who isn't.

I could your future shadenfrueden quite well.

In the very unlikely change that society breaks down like you describes (total collapse) it not going to work out like you imagine it will.

What you might get from having land to farm, is a leg up on the urbanites if our depression continues to get worse.

That is assuming, of course, that you own your land outright and your local community of parasitic local government doesn't tax you out of it before they lose all power to condemn your land.

That's a big if becuase usually the last people to lose power when society is totally falling apart is the pigs who caused it in the first place.

That is true. But I own it outright by inheritence. The taxes to the state which I suspect would still function at some level wouldn't be particularly hard to pay since land here is relatively cheap. I was thinking more of temporary collapse. The nature of people who form up into groups like we saw in Katrina. The good and the bad. I'm simply saying in that situation I think I have the capacity to survive but I couldn't do it without other people obviously.

 

[idb]

Can you provide a link that show it has never been reference as a mosque by the people whoi applied for a permit?

As I understand it the first announcement was in the NY Times on December 8 2009.
I'm not allowed to post a link as I don't have enough posts under my belt yet but i shouldn't be a difficult search.
In it the proponents acknowledge that it might be a hard sell.
I have no axe to grind, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

[link that I'm not allowed to post]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

As I understand it the first announcement was in the NY Times on December 8 2009.
I'm not allowed to post a link as I don't have enough posts under my belt yet but i shouldn't be a difficult search.
In it the proponents acknowledge that it might be a hard sell.
I have no axe to grind, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

[link that I'm not allowed to post]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

Look you are not allowed to edit anyones post it's against forum rules. please do not do it again.

Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

Act! for America - Islamic Mosque Built at 9/11 Ground Zero: Muslim business leader: 'This has hand of the divine written over it'

 

[bigrebnc1775]

As I understand it the first announcement was in the NY Times on December 8 2009.
I'm not allowed to post a link as I don't have enough posts under my belt yet but i shouldn't be a difficult search.
In it the proponents acknowledge that it might be a hard sell.
I have no axe to grind, I'm happy to be proved wrong.

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

[link that I'm not allowed to post]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

Look you are not allowed to edit anyones post it's against forum rules. please do not do it again.

Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

Act! for America - Islamic Mosque Built at 9/11 Ground Zero: Muslim business leader: 'This has hand of the divine written over it'

 

[editec]

I don't think you're catching my drift exactly, but in any event the person best prepared has a better chance than he who isn't.

I could your future shadenfrueden quite well.

In the very unlikely change that society breaks down like you describes (total collapse) it not going to work out like you imagine it will.

What you might get from having land to farm, is a leg up on the urbanites if our depression continues to get worse.

That is assuming, of course, that you own your land outright and your local community of parasitic local government doesn't tax you out of it before they lose all power to condemn your land.

That's a big if becuase usually the last people to lose power when society is totally falling apart is the pigs who caused it in the first place.

That is true. But I own it outright by inheritence.

Well that helps to be sure.

The taxes to the state which I suspect would still function at some level wouldn't be particularly hard to pay since land here is relatively cheap.

Yeah now they are...but local communities (especially the good old boys who so often control them) will raise your taxes as needed.

And when you are describing a TOTAL COLLAPSE, know that while that is happening, the mechanisms of taxation and condemnation are tyrpically the last things to go,

I was thinking more of temporary collapse.

Okay, then I agree. In the event of a very very very short term collapse, you will be better off.

The nature of people who form up into groups like we saw in Katrina. The good and the bad. I'm simply saying in that situation I think I have the capacity to survive but I couldn't do it without other people obviously.

Yup.

Your neighbors are better assets in that event than your guns or even your stockpiled goods.

Because without the support of your neighbors you're just a target.

 

[manifold]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

I think it's all in context. Some people don't give a crap about the confederate flag, but give a crap about the mosque, and vice versa.

Most southern white people don't view confederate flag as insensitive while most blacks do. From what I've experienced, people of African American decent don't like the flag period. Whether or not it's at a government office makes no difference IMO.

The difference between the two is that most Americans believe that putting a mosque at ground zero is insensitive much like hanging a Confederate flag in your window in the middle of Harlem, or at MLK's grave would be insensitive. I'm not quite sure if I'm answering your question right.

I guess you're saying that it's sensless to say one thing is insensitive while ignoring the insensitivity of other things?? Much like many posters on this board who will use a certain type of logic to prove you wrong but then ignore the same kind of logic when their wrong?

Bingo!

Please pick up your prize at the door.

 

[manifold]

Just one more thing regarding slavery...

While the 'Confederacy' hasn't practiced it for a century and a half now, Islam to this day still enslaves an entire gender.


True story

What does that have to do with your silly premise?

It's more to do with debunking your silly claim that there is no comparison between the two on account of the Confederacy practicing slavery.

 

[Ravi]

I didn't say that. I agreed with GTH that those that claim that crime begins and ends with the criminal on the one hand and that crime is the fault of a religion on the other hand are hypocrites.

And you are.

 

[idb]

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

[link that I'm not allowed to post]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

Look you are not allowed to edit anyones post it's against forum rules. please do not do it again.

For goodness sake!

 

[idb]

This is as far back as I can find that reference the mosque.
Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

[link that I'm not allowed to post]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

Look you are not allowed to edit anyones post it's against forum rules. please do not do it again.

For goodness sake!

 

[manifold]

I didn't say that. I agreed with GTH that those that claim that crime begins and ends with the criminal on the one hand and that crime is the fault of a religion on the other hand are hypocrites.

If such people actually existed, I'd agree with you.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I still don't see a quote mentioning 'mosque'.
Be that as it may, is a mosque necessarily sinister?
The article also mentions a "room for seminars to reconcile religions" in the centre.

I simply believe that the opponents debase their own argument by their use of extreme and alarmist language.

Look you are not allowed to edit anyones post it's against forum rules. please do not do it again.

For goodness sake!

For goodnes sakes what?
And why do you keep deleting this reply?

Rauf has announced his plans to turn the building into a complete Islamic cultural center, with a mosque, a museum, "merchandising options," and room for seminars to reconcile religions, "to counteract the backlash against Muslims in general, " Speigel reports. The project may cost as much as $150 million.

Act! for America - Islamic Mosque Built at 9/11 Ground Zero: Muslim business leader: 'This has hand of the divine written over it'