Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[BrianH]

Look, whoever wanted to put it there had every right under our laws. So that's not debatable. I will say, however, that the decision to put it there was highly insensitive. Just my opinion.

You might be right...however the intention might still be noble.
It seems to me that most of the opposition accuses the proponents of malicious intent without being prepared to consider that maybe the purpose really is as honourable as is claimed.

IMO, it may be noble to be willing to educate people on Islam after such an event, however, I believe that they can educate people from a different (less sensitive) area.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Just exactly when did the Confederate Battle flag become a symbol of racism?
Would you say this image was a symbol of racism? When did any racist group start using it?

The Confederate Flag and all of it's cousins (the battle flags) were racist right out of the gate.

The Confederacy declared war on the United States over the issue of the right to own and trade blacks as property.

end of story

You are to stupid to realize your speaking an untruth. It wasn't until after the cenntineal of the of the civil war that the kkk started using the battle flag the always used the stars and stripes

So it's a racist flag? is this gentalman a racist?

This flag served the same purpose as the battle flag would you call it a racist flag?

Tell me that you are aware that blacks also owned slaves?

you're a bigot and a fool?

who knew

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Just one more thing regarding slavery...

While the 'Confederacy' hasn't practiced it for a century and a half now, Islam to this day still enslaves an entire gender.


True story

no one cares about that when discussing America.

get with the program and stop being such a loser

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

You are to stupid to realize your speaking an untruth. It wasn't until after the cenntineal of the of the civil war that the kkk started using the battle flag the always used the stars and stripes

So it's a racist flag? is this gentalman a racist?

This flag served the same purpose as the battle flag would you call it a racist flag?

Tell me that you are aware that blacks also owned slaves?

Point is, the stars and bars means different things to different people. To some it's a symbol of Southern heritage and a culture that's distinct from the North and the West.

To others, it's a symbol of slavery because it's association with one of the core ideals (I use that word loosely) the South was fighting to preserve.

You may not like that people hold the latter view, but there's no denying that others do feel that way about the Confederate flag--even if the KKK used to rally behind the stripes.

It only means racism because it's what people have been taught. Those who call it a symbol of racism are also calling the blacks who fought and died for that flag a racist and that is a dishonor to those men. The core values of the south was not slavery it was an issue the core value was money Both with the north and the south.

No one dishoners one of the handful (fact--small number) of blacks who may have fought on the side of the traitorous Confederacy.

Fact is the COnfederacy declared war on the United States...same as al qaeda did.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Point is, the stars and bars means different things to different people. To some it's a symbol of Southern heritage and a culture that's distinct from the North and the West.

To others, it's a symbol of slavery because it's association with one of the core ideals (I use that word loosely) the South was fighting to preserve.

You may not like that people hold the latter view, but there's no denying that others do feel that way about the Confederate flag--even if the KKK used to rally behind the stripes.

It only means racism because it's what people have been taught. Those who call it a symbol of racism are also calling the blacks who fought and died for that flag a racist and that is a dishonor to those men. The core values of the south was not slavery it was an issue the core value was money Both with the north and the south.

No one dishoners one of the handful (fact--small number) of blacks who may have fought on the side of the traitorous Confederacy.

Fact is the COnfederacy declared war on the United States...same as al qaeda did.

The facts is you are a stupid fucking bigot with the wrong opinion.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The Confederate Flag and all of it's cousins (the battle flags) were racist right out of the gate.

The Confederacy declared war on the United States over the issue of the right to own and trade blacks as property.

end of story

You are to stupid to realize your speaking an untruth. It wasn't until after the cenntineal of the of the civil war that the kkk started using the battle flag the always used the stars and stripes

So it's a racist flag? is this gentalman a racist?

This flag served the same purpose as the battle flag would you call it a racist flag?

Tell me that you are aware that blacks also owned slaves?

you're a bigot and a fool?

who knew

Come on son of bitch name your fucking posin. Show me what you know of the war between the states. I will bust your fucking bubble.

 

[idb]

Identified how, why and by whom? That's the question, in both cases.

Symbols are in the mind of the beholder, they have no inherent meaning beyond what we choose to assign to them. The only real difference I see between the two and what people choose to believe they symbolize is the bias of the people viewing them.

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend? I realize it's not that simple, but it's the association that matters. And of course those who blame all of Islam for 9/11 will see a mosque, any mosque let alone one a few blocks from the site we consider so sacred it's still just a muddy hole in the ground, as a symbol of jihad and a thumbed nose in our general direction. The fact that Muslims live and work in the area and need a place to worship is quite irrelevant.

It's natural confirmation bias. No matter what anybody does someone, somewhere will see it the way they want to see it and get butthurt over it. That's human nature. *shrug*

Now the interesting question to me is the public v. private property distinction. But that's getting away from whether it's subjectively "insensitive".

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend?

Not if you actually asked the men who fought for the south, that was not their reason nor was freeing the slaves the reason the men of the north chose to fight. But if you ask most anyone in the late 20th century yes it was the reason. However if you look at klan photos from the mid 20th century. look at the flag they carried.

There are many more photos with the kkk carring the stars and stripes long before they stole the Confederate battle flag.

I'm not sure what the appropriate language is in American so I'll just say it in my language..."Fuck you are a cock!"

Just because a group appropriates a symbol for their own ends doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its original meaning.
Consider the word 'gay'.
Also consider the swastika...I can't be shagged explaining it...Wikipedia it yourself...!
Cock!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Identified how, why and by whom? That's the question, in both cases.

Symbols are in the mind of the beholder, they have no inherent meaning beyond what we choose to assign to them. The only real difference I see between the two and what people choose to believe they symbolize is the bias of the people viewing them.

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend? I realize it's not that simple, but it's the association that matters. And of course those who blame all of Islam for 9/11 will see a mosque, any mosque let alone one a few blocks from the site we consider so sacred it's still just a muddy hole in the ground, as a symbol of jihad and a thumbed nose in our general direction. The fact that Muslims live and work in the area and need a place to worship is quite irrelevant.

It's natural confirmation bias. No matter what anybody does someone, somewhere will see it the way they want to see it and get butthurt over it. That's human nature. *shrug*

Now the interesting question to me is the public v. private property distinction. But that's getting away from whether it's subjectively "insensitive".

Of course people who associate the Confederacy with the fight for slavery will see its battle flag as a racist symbol. Isn't that what it flew to defend?

Not if you actually asked the men who fought for the south, that was not their reason nor was freeing the slaves the reason the men of the north chose to fight. But if you ask most anyone in the late 20th century yes it was the reason. However if you look at klan photos from the mid 20th century. look at the flag they carried.

There are many more photos with the kkk carring the stars and stripes long before they stole the Confederate battle flag.

I'm not sure what the appropriate language is in American so I'll just say it in my language..."Fuck you are a cock!"

Just because a group appropriates a symbol for their own ends doesn't necessarily have anything to do with its original meaning.
Consider the word 'gay'.
Also consider the swastika...I can't be shagged explaining it...Wikipedia it yourself...!
Cock!

You are basing your reply on ignorance
Racism existed longer under the stars and stripes so your opinion is worthless.
The Confederate battle flag was not seen as a racist sysmbol until the late 1960's. So if you're going to link the battle flag with racism you might as well throw the stars and stripes in with it.

 

[idb]

Since you're too lazy to do it I've done it for you.
Wikipedia suggests swastikas appearing back to the the fifth century BC.
So what does that mean?
It means nothing as far as the original intention of the swastika is concerned.
Again...anyone can appropriate any symbol for their own ends.
Ku Klux Klan using the Stars and Stripes? They might just as easily used Ronald McDonald!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Since you're too lazy to do it I've done it for you.
Wikipedia suggests swastikas appearing back to the the fifth century BC.
So what does that mean?
It means nothing as far as the original intention of the swastika is concerned.
Again...anyone can appropriate any symbol for their own ends.
Ku Klux Klan using the Stars and Stripes? They might just as easily used Ronald McDonald!

To lazy? I've studied the 18th and 19th century most of my life, I am a 19th century living historian. I have done my research.. One more time for the ignorant the battle flag was a not a racist symbol until the late 1960's. The stars and stripes was used by the klan long before they started using the Confederate battle flag.

 

[Flaylo]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

Those dumb flaggots who want fly Confederate flags are insensitive, should we fly at Japanese flag at Pearl Harbor?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

Those dumb flaggots who want fly Confederate flags are insensitive, should we fly at Japanese flag at Pearl Harbor?

troll learn some thing about the subject you are talking about, do some historical research on the Battle flag before you comment again

 

[Flaylo]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

Those dumb flaggots who want fly Confederate flags are insensitive, should we fly at Japanese flag at Pearl Harbor?

troll learn some thing about the subject you are talking about, do some historical research on the Battle flag before you comment again

You didn't answer my question John Wayne. I guess you're one of those flaggots.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Those dumb flaggots who want fly Confederate flags are insensitive, should we fly at Japanese flag at Pearl Harbor?

troll learn some thing about the subject you are talking about, do some historical research on the Battle flag before you comment again

You didn't answer my question John Wayne. I guess you're one of those flaggots.

You're comparing the rising sun fling over American soil and the Confederate battle flag fling over Southern soil. Two totally differant subjects. As I suggest do some research.

 

[idb]

Since you're too lazy to do it I've done it for you.
Wikipedia suggests swastikas appearing back to the the fifth century BC.
So what does that mean?
It means nothing as far as the original intention of the swastika is concerned.
Again...anyone can appropriate any symbol for their own ends.
Ku Klux Klan using the Stars and Stripes? They might just as easily used Ronald McDonald!

To lazy? I've studied the 18th and 19th century most of my life, I am a 19th century living historian. I have done my research.. One more time for the ignorant the battle flag was a not a racist symbol until the late 1960's. The stars and stripes was used by the klan long before they started using the Confederate battle flag.

Good grief...I have lost the thread of our dispute...hang on...you contend that because the Stars and Stripes (as evidenced in some photos) was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies then it must be more racist than the Confederate flag.
Then I said "So what if the Stars and Stripes was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies, that doesn't imply that the S&S was designed to symbolise racist ideals, nor that the Confederate equivalent was. Nor does it prove that the South was not driven to secede by a desire to protect their right to maintain slaves"
OK, I'm paraphrasing my argument, but it seems to me that you are basing much of yours on symbology which can easily be appropriated by anyone.
What would happen if NAMBLA started using Mickey Mouse on their T-shirts?

 

[Flaylo]

troll learn some thing about the subject you are talking about, do some historical research on the Battle flag before you comment again

You didn't answer my question John Wayne. I guess you're one of those flaggots.

You're comparing the rising sun fling over American soil and the Confederate battle flag fling over Southern soil. Two totally differant subjects. As I suggest do some research.

They're both enemy flags.

 

[FifthColumn]

Actually...wrong.

Confederate soldiers did not announce, nor did their leaders announce their intention, nor did they attempt, to slaughter Union women and children.

In fact, it was the UNION army that starved out (i.e., killed) Confederacy women and children by ransacking the farms and blockading the ports, resulting in the starvation of who knows how many southern women and children. They were also great at starving Confederate prisoners.

Still, nobody announced any intention to kill off the women & children of the other side.

So they aren't the same.

wtf are you talking about?

What exactly did I get 'wrong' in the OP?

Are you suggesting that nobody sees the Confederate flag as insensitive or that nobody sees the ground zero mosque as insensitive?

Well, Islamic terrorist are kiling people in the name of their god.

The Confederates felt that their countries (states) were being invaded.

A Union soldier yelled to a Confederate soldier: "Hey Reb! Why are you shooting at us!"

The Confederate soldier replied: "Because you're down here!"

There's the difference.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Since you're too lazy to do it I've done it for you.
Wikipedia suggests swastikas appearing back to the the fifth century BC.
So what does that mean?
It means nothing as far as the original intention of the swastika is concerned.
Again...anyone can appropriate any symbol for their own ends.
Ku Klux Klan using the Stars and Stripes? They might just as easily used Ronald McDonald!

To lazy? I've studied the 18th and 19th century most of my life, I am a 19th century living historian. I have done my research.. One more time for the ignorant the battle flag was a not a racist symbol until the late 1960's. The stars and stripes was used by the klan long before they started using the Confederate battle flag.

Good grief...I have lost the thread of our dispute...hang on...you contend that because the Stars and Stripes (as evidenced in some photos) was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies then it must be more racist than the Confederate flag.
Then I said "So what if the Stars and Stripes was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies, that doesn't imply that the S&S was designed to symbolise racist ideals, nor that the Confederate equivalent was. Nor does it prove that the South was not driven to secede by a desire to protect their right to maintain slaves"
OK, I'm paraphrasing my argument, but it seems to me that you are basing much of yours on symbology which can easily be appropriated by anyone.
What would happen if NAMBLA started using Mickey Mouse on their T-shirts?

Good grief...I have lost the thread of our dispute...hang on...you contend that because the Stars and Stripes (as evidenced in some photos) was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies then it must be more racist than the Confederate flag. Then I said "So what if the Stars and Stripes was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies, that doesn't imply that the S&S was designed to symbolise racist ideals, nor that the Confederate equivalent was.

Study and gains some knowledge. Here's an example of what I mean. What Confederate flag are you talking about. They had many, some I have already shown.

Then I said "So what if the Stars and Stripes was used before the Confederate flag at KKK rallies, that doesn't imply that the S&S was designed to symbolise racist ideals, nor that the Confederate equivalent was.

Neither flag was designed to symbolise any racist ideals, it's just how you have been taught about them. Which again goes back to doing your own research., and why I have shown you images of the klan carring the stars and stripes.

Nor does it prove that the South was not driven to secede by a desire to protect their right to maintain slaves"

Nor does your argument prove that the north fought to end slavery.

OK, I'm paraphrasing my argument, but it seems to me that you are basing much of yours on symbology which can easily be appropriated by anyone.
What would happen if NAMBLA started using Mickey Mouse on their T-shirts

Who cares? I don't, what I care about is keeping good men from being slandered with 20th century views.

 

[FifthColumn]

Just one more thing regarding slavery...

While the 'Confederacy' hasn't practiced it for a century and a half now, Islam to this day still enslaves an entire gender.


True story

And Latin America continued to practice slavery long after it ended in the United States yet they call us "Nazis"!!

 

[bigrebnc1775]

You didn't answer my question John Wayne. I guess you're one of those flaggots.

You're comparing the rising sun fling over American soil and the Confederate battle flag fling over Southern soil. Two totally differant subjects. As I suggest do some research.

They're both enemy flags.

You're the enemy then