Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[FifthColumn]

Yep...thanks, I was too lazy for details so I thought football mentality would cover it.

Slavery was an issue. But would you sacrifice your life so the plantations of the RICH southerners, who never mingled with POOR whites, could have slaves?

Hmmm? I wonder how many POOR white Americans today will fight for the right to allow Mexicans to take jobs and benefits away from POOR white Americans.

Aren't you one of the ones that has a fit at the thought of people that make 100 times your income are paying more taxes?

Again, not owning slaves did not mean that many Southerners were against slavery. In fact they enjoyed the benefits of a slave based economy and were afraid that if slaves were free the blacks would marry their sisters.

Some things never change, as your comment about Mexicans proves.

Sorry. Screwing the slaves was limited to US Presidents. However, Mexicans screw with anyone who has the 2 pesos.

 

[JamesInFlorida]

Do you live in a state that has this issue?

Some people are offended by the flag (I'm personally not). There's a HUGE confederate flag here right by I-4 and I-75. Now it's flown on private property-so I think they have the right to fly it-but it did create a pretty big uproar here. It didn't go over all that smoothly. Therefore do I think it should be allowed to be flown on public land? No. Because if that was the case-it would have been paid for by the taxpaying public-many of which have a big problem with the flag. I'm honestly not aware of any confederate flag flying on public land here in the Tampa area, not sure about the rest of Florida though.

And in highschool we were not allowed to have anything that resembled a confederate flag while on school property (at a public highschool).

And in highschool we were not allowed to have anything that resembled a confederate flag while on school property (at a public highschool).

Yes have seen some of the bull shit people put on tshirts and I agree. They dis honor the Flag. When I was cop years ago at the time I did not know it, but I made the grand wizzard take two 6' x 4' battle flags that he was fling from the back of his truck while driving trough areas that blacks hung out. How did the school address those SCV tags?

The school would tell you to remove it and put it away (if possible), if you had no way of doing so (t-shirt for example), you had to get someone to bring a different shirt to wear for the rest of the day. There was no disciplinary action taken unless the person was a multiple offender of the dress code-then they'd get suspended.

edit: I think there's a lot of people who misunderstand the flag both in that a lot of people who fly it/have some sort of representation for it don't release it wasn't the national flag of the confederacy-but it was their battle flag. And that others see it as a symbol of racism. Neither are really correct.

And slavery wasn't the sole reason for the civil war (although it did play somewhat into it). For example, most people don't know that Robert E. Lee was against slavery.

 

[manifold]

From the confederate side it was fought to break away from the Union for the purpose of keeping slaves.

^ More opinion...


Fact: Just because an opinion is widely held, it doesn't make it fact.

 

[Ravi]

From the confederate side it was fought to break away from the Union for the purpose of keeping slaves.

^ More opinion...


Fact: Just because an opinion is widely held, it doesn't make it fact.

It is not an opinion.

 

[manifold]

From the confederate side it was fought to break away from the Union for the purpose of keeping slaves.

^ More opinion...


Fact: Just because an opinion is widely held, it doesn't make it fact.

It is not an opinion.

Clearly you struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions.

It's an opinion dear, no doubt about it.

 

[Ravi]

^ More opinion...


Fact: Just because an opinion is widely held, it doesn't make it fact.

It is not an opinion.

Clearly you struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions.

It's an opinion dear, no doubt about it.

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

It is not an opinion.

Clearly you struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions.

It's an opinion dear, no doubt about it.

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

The Ordinances of Secession are the documents that give the reason each state left the union.
Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America Yet that doesn't explain why men fought. Most did not fight to keep the rich man with slaves. So do us a favor stop being stupid.

 

[Sheldon]

Yet you use an opinated source I provided the Ordinances of Secession That is the tell all documents of the reason why they left the union

South Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by us in convention on the twenty-third day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying amendments of the said Constitution, are hereby repealed; and that the union now subsisting between South Carolina and other States, under the name of the "United States of America," is hereby dissolved.

Done at Charleston the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty.


Mississippi
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of Mississippi and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The people of the State of Mississippi, in convention assembled, do ordain and declare, and it is hereby ordained and declared, as follows, to wit:

Section 1. That all the laws and ordinances by which the said State of Mississippi became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that all obligations on the part of the said State or the people thereof to observe the same be withdrawn, and that the said State doth hereby resume all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws or ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the said United States, and is absolved from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred to the said Federal Union, and shall from henceforth be a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Sec. 2. That so much of the first section of the seventh article of the constitution of this State as requires members of the Legislature and all officers, executive and judicial, to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same is hereby, abrogated and annulled.

Sec. 3. That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed, or treaty made, in pursuance thereof, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Sec. 4. That the people of the State of Mississippi hereby consent to form a federal union with such of the States as may have seceded or may secede from the Union of the United States of America, upon the basis of the present Constitution of the said United States, except such parts thereof as embrace other portions than such seceding States.

Thus ordained and declared in convention the 9th day of January, in the year of our Lord 1861.

North Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of North Carolina and the other States united with her, under the compact of government entitled "The Constitution of the United States."

We, the people of the State of North Carolina in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by the State of North Carolina in the convention of 1789, whereby the Constitution of the United States was ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly ratifying and adopting amendments to the said Constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded, and abrogated.

We do further declare and ordain, That the union now subsisting between the State of North Carolina and the other States, under the title of the United States of America, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of North Carolina is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

Done in convention at the city of Raleigh, this the 20th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the independence of said State.

Tennessee
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

[sent to referendum 6 May 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on 8 June 1861]

Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America

Can you please bold the parts in those ordinances that provide *reasons* why those states seceded? Because all I'm seeing is them formally dissolving their binds to the Constitution and the Federal government.



And from the same website, here's a relevant part from "South Carolina's Address to Slave-holding States":

The agitations on the subject of Slavery in the South are the natural results of the consolidation of the Government. Responsibility follows power; and if the people of the North have the power by Congress "to promote the general welfare of the United States," by any means they deem expedient, why should they not assail and overthrow the institution of Slavery in the South?

They are responsible for its continuance or existence, in proportion to their power. A majority in Congress, according to their interested and perverted views, is omnipotent. The inducements to act upon the subject of Slavery, under such circumstances, were so imperious as to amount almost to a moral necessity. To make, however, their numerical power available to rule the Union, the North must consolidate their power. It would not be united on any matter common to the whole Union -- in other words, on any constitutional subject -- for on such subjects divisions are as likely to exist in the North as in the South. Slavery was strictly a sectional interest. If this could be made the criterion of parties at the North, the North could be united in its power, and thus carry out its measures of sectional ambition, encroachment, and aggrandizement. To build up their sectional predominance in the Union, the Constitution must be first abolished by constructions; but that being done, the consolidation of the North to rule the South, by the tariff and Slavery issues, was in the obvious course of things.

This nails on the three big reasons: Federal representation, tariffs, and the right to own humans.

Look at *why* preserving their states' autonomy and why federal representation was a concern for the Southern powers.

They realized they had a decreasing say in the future of slavery, which was the example they used of "sectional interests". And they were aware that the political tide in the North was shifting towards empathy and even outright support for the abolition movement (this doesn't mean EVERYONE up here supported abolition). The large historical record supports this view.

Think about it--which would be the greater threat to a slave-based economy: tariffs, or the abolition of slavery?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Fact: Individual states cannot secede from the Union/Compact.

 

[Ravi]

Can you please bold the parts in those ordinances that provide *reasons* why those states seceded? Because all I'm seeing is them formally dissolving their binds to the Constitution and the Federal government.

Bingo. Rebbugger simply and conveniently ignores every speech and document produced leading up to the vote to secede.

There is no doubt in my mind that he can produce a few blacks that fought for the confederacy and claim that as proof that blacks enjoyed being enslaved.

 

[manifold]

It is not an opinion.

Clearly you struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions.

It's an opinion dear, no doubt about it.

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

When it comes to motivations of man, the answer to the question 'why' is always subjective and therefore a matter of opinion.

I win.

You lose.

Have a nice day.

 

[manifold]

Fact: Individual states cannot secede from the Union/Compact.

Never say never.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Yet you use an opinated source I provided the Ordinances of Secession That is the tell all documents of the reason why they left the union

South Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by us in convention on the twenty-third day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying amendments of the said Constitution, are hereby repealed; and that the union now subsisting between South Carolina and other States, under the name of the "United States of America," is hereby dissolved.

Done at Charleston the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty.


Mississippi
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of Mississippi and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The people of the State of Mississippi, in convention assembled, do ordain and declare, and it is hereby ordained and declared, as follows, to wit:

Section 1. That all the laws and ordinances by which the said State of Mississippi became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that all obligations on the part of the said State or the people thereof to observe the same be withdrawn, and that the said State doth hereby resume all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws or ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the said United States, and is absolved from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred to the said Federal Union, and shall from henceforth be a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Sec. 2. That so much of the first section of the seventh article of the constitution of this State as requires members of the Legislature and all officers, executive and judicial, to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same is hereby, abrogated and annulled.

Sec. 3. That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed, or treaty made, in pursuance thereof, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Sec. 4. That the people of the State of Mississippi hereby consent to form a federal union with such of the States as may have seceded or may secede from the Union of the United States of America, upon the basis of the present Constitution of the said United States, except such parts thereof as embrace other portions than such seceding States.

Thus ordained and declared in convention the 9th day of January, in the year of our Lord 1861.

North Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of North Carolina and the other States united with her, under the compact of government entitled "The Constitution of the United States."

We, the people of the State of North Carolina in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by the State of North Carolina in the convention of 1789, whereby the Constitution of the United States was ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly ratifying and adopting amendments to the said Constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded, and abrogated.

We do further declare and ordain, That the union now subsisting between the State of North Carolina and the other States, under the title of the United States of America, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of North Carolina is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

Done in convention at the city of Raleigh, this the 20th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the independence of said State.

Tennessee
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

[sent to referendum 6 May 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on 8 June 1861]

Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America

Can you please bold the parts in those ordinances that provide *reasons* why those states seceded? Because all I'm seeing is them formally dissolving their binds to the Constitution and the Federal government.



And from the same website, here's a relevant part from "South Carolina's Address to Slave-holding States":

The agitations on the subject of Slavery in the South are the natural results of the consolidation of the Government. Responsibility follows power; and if the people of the North have the power by Congress "to promote the general welfare of the United States," by any means they deem expedient, why should they not assail and overthrow the institution of Slavery in the South?

They are responsible for its continuance or existence, in proportion to their power. A majority in Congress, according to their interested and perverted views, is omnipotent. The inducements to act upon the subject of Slavery, under such circumstances, were so imperious as to amount almost to a moral necessity. To make, however, their numerical power available to rule the Union, the North must consolidate their power. It would not be united on any matter common to the whole Union -- in other words, on any constitutional subject -- for on such subjects divisions are as likely to exist in the North as in the South. Slavery was strictly a sectional interest. If this could be made the criterion of parties at the North, the North could be united in its power, and thus carry out its measures of sectional ambition, encroachment, and aggrandizement. To build up their sectional predominance in the Union, the Constitution must be first abolished by constructions; but that being done, the consolidation of the North to rule the South, by the tariff and Slavery issues, was in the obvious course of things.

This nails on the three big reasons: Federal representation, tariffs, and the right to own humans.

Look at *why* preserving their states' autonomy and why federal representation was a concern for the Southern powers.

They realized they had a decreasing say in the future of slavery, which was the example they used of "sectional interests". And they were aware that the political tide in the North was shifting towards empathy and even outright support for the abolition movement (this doesn't mean EVERYONE up here supported abolition). The large historical record supports this view.

Think about it--which would be the greater threat to a slave-based economy: tariffs, or the abolition of slavery?

No one is saying slavery wasn't not one of the issues so stop being stupid, but it was not the only cause. Slavery was not the main issue for either side. Money was. You may learn something if you stick around.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Can you please bold the parts in those ordinances that provide *reasons* why those states seceded? Because all I'm seeing is them formally dissolving their binds to the Constitution and the Federal government.

Bingo. Rebbugger simply and conveniently ignores every speech and document produced leading up to the vote to secede.

There is no doubt in my mind that he can produce a few blacks that fought for the confederacy and claim that as proof that blacks enjoyed being enslaved.

You want to talk speeches?
Lincoln declared
I have no purpose to introduce political and social equality between the white and black races. There is physical difference between the two which, in my judgment, will probably forever forbid their living together upon the footing of perfect equality, and inasmuch as it becomes a necessity that there must be a difference, I, as well as Judge Douglas, am in favor of the race to which I belong having the superior position.

I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races; I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people.

He continued:

I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.

The Great Emancipator Abraham Lincoln and the Issue of Race

 

[Sheldon]

No one is saying slavery wasn't not one of the issues so stop being stupid, but it was not the only cause. Slavery was not the main issue for either side. Money was. You may learn something if you stick around.

There were other factors, but ensuring that slavery was upheld was *the* overriding reason for the Soufern governments coming together and seceding from the Union. It was about the powerful few staying rich through exploitive labor.

Even your boy Jefferson said that slavery was going to tear this nation apart, and he was right.

 

[Ravi]

Clearly you struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions.

It's an opinion dear, no doubt about it.

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

When it comes to motivations of man, the answer to the question 'why' is always subjective and therefore a matter of opinion.

I win.

You lose.

Have a nice day.

If the motives weren't in black and white I'd agree with you...but they are, and I don't, and you fail. Again.

 

[Sheldon]

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

When it comes to motivations of man, the answer to the question 'why' is always subjective and therefore a matter of opinion.

I win.

You lose.

Have a nice day.

If the motives weren't in black and white I'd agree with you...but they are, and I don't, and you fail. Again.

Pun?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No one is saying slavery wasn't not one of the issues so stop being stupid, but it was not the only cause. Slavery was not the main issue for either side. Money was. You may learn something if you stick around.

There were other factors, but ensuring that slavery was upheld was *the* overriding reason for the Soufern governments coming together and seceding from the Union. It was about the powerful few staying rich through exploitive labor.

Even your boy Jefferson said that slavery was going to tear this nation apart, and he was right.

If slavery and keep it was such a factor why did the Confedderate government decided to free the slaves in 1865? People who were so dead set for keep slaves would never have freed them in the first place.

And if slavery was the big issue why would blacks fight to keep slavery and another thing why would the poor white who were considered second class fight for slavery?

 

[manifold]

Nope...historical documents don't lie. But I invite you again to tell us why the Civil war was fought.

When it comes to motivations of man, the answer to the question 'why' is always subjective and therefore a matter of opinion.

I win.

You lose.

Have a nice day.

If the motives weren't in black and white I'd agree with you...but they are, and I don't, and you fail. Again.

Attempting to substantiate your opinion with yet another opinion.

Keep failin' stubby.

 

[Ravi]

When you've got nothing you should admit to defeat.

You and buggerreb have been pwned...but do keep defending the indefensible, it's almost cute.