Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[Ravi]

Now SHUT THE FUCK UP

Why are you so afraid of the truth? These are just covering South Carolina, which you claimed didn't secede over slavery.

But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

In 1860 South Carolina seceded alone from the old union of States. Her people, in Convention assembled, invited the slaveholding States (none others) of the old Union to join her in erecting a separate Government of Slave States, for the protection of their common interests. All of the slave states, with the exception of Maryland and Kentucky, responded to her invitation. The Southern Confederacy of slave States was formed.

We Want No Confederacy without Slavery

 

[Ravi]

False.

Both opinions, not facts.

And you're welcome to them.

Why don't you explain to the class what the Civil war was about?

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Now SHUT THE FUCK UP

Why are you so afraid of the truth? These are just covering South Carolina, which you claimed didn't secede over slavery.

But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution. The States of Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Wisconsin and Iowa, have enacted laws which either nullify the Acts of Congress or render useless any attempt to execute them. In many of these States the fugitive is discharged from service or labor claimed, and in none of them has the State Government complied with the stipulation made in the Constitution. The State of New Jersey, at an early day, passed a law in conformity with her constitutional obligation; but the current of anti-slavery feeling has led her more recently to enact laws which render inoperative the remedies provided by her own law and by the laws of Congress. In the State of New York even the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals; and the States of Ohio and Iowa have refused to surrender to justice fugitives charged with murder, and with inciting servile insurrection in the State of Virginia. Thus the constituted compact has been deliberately broken and disregarded by the non-slaveholding States, and the consequence follows that South Carolina is released from her obligation.

Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

In 1860 South Carolina seceded alone from the old union of States. Her people, in Convention assembled, invited the slaveholding States (none others) of the old Union to join her in erecting a separate Government of Slave States, for the protection of their common interests. All of the slave states, with the exception of Maryland and Kentucky, responded to her invitation. The Southern Confederacy of slave States was formed.

We Want No Confederacy without Slavery

Why is it that you left out this par of my comment? Why are you afraid of the truth? You did make this comment

All you need do is read the documents put forth by the founders of the confederacy...they all mention slavery as the ultimate reason for the war.

Yet you use an opinated source I provided the Ordinances of Secession That is the tell all documents of the reason why they left the union

South Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by us in convention on the twenty-third day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying amendments of the said Constitution, are hereby repealed; and that the union now subsisting between South Carolina and other States, under the name of the "United States of America," is hereby dissolved.

Done at Charleston the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty.


Mississippi
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of Mississippi and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The people of the State of Mississippi, in convention assembled, do ordain and declare, and it is hereby ordained and declared, as follows, to wit:

Section 1. That all the laws and ordinances by which the said State of Mississippi became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that all obligations on the part of the said State or the people thereof to observe the same be withdrawn, and that the said State doth hereby resume all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws or ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the said United States, and is absolved from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred to the said Federal Union, and shall from henceforth be a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Sec. 2. That so much of the first section of the seventh article of the constitution of this State as requires members of the Legislature and all officers, executive and judicial, to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same is hereby, abrogated and annulled.

Sec. 3. That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed, or treaty made, in pursuance thereof, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Sec. 4. That the people of the State of Mississippi hereby consent to form a federal union with such of the States as may have seceded or may secede from the Union of the United States of America, upon the basis of the present Constitution of the said United States, except such parts thereof as embrace other portions than such seceding States.

Thus ordained and declared in convention the 9th day of January, in the year of our Lord 1861.

North Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of North Carolina and the other States united with her, under the compact of government entitled "The Constitution of the United States."

We, the people of the State of North Carolina in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by the State of North Carolina in the convention of 1789, whereby the Constitution of the United States was ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly ratifying and adopting amendments to the said Constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded, and abrogated.

We do further declare and ordain, That the union now subsisting between the State of North Carolina and the other States, under the title of the United States of America, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of North Carolina is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

Done in convention at the city of Raleigh, this the 20th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the independence of said State.

Tennessee
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

[sent to referendum 6 May 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on 8 June 1861]

Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America

 

[Ravi]

An opinionated source... An actual document issued by the state of South Carolina.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

An opinionated source... An actual document issued by the state of South Carolina.

Here's the actual document

Ordinance of Secession, South Carolina, 1860

 

[AllieBaba]

Actually...wrong.

Confederate soldiers did not announce, nor did their leaders announce their intention, nor did they attempt, to slaughter Union women and children.

In fact, it was the UNION army that starved out (i.e., killed) Confederacy women and children by ransacking the farms and blockading the ports, resulting in the starvation of who knows how many southern women and children. They were also great at starving Confederate prisoners.

Still, nobody announced any intention to kill off the women & children of the other side.

So they aren't the same.

I'm sure the South was as kind to Union Soldiers as they were to their slaves.

Besides, the Republican Confederate Party is 90% white. Do they really care if they offend a bunch of blacks. If they did, would they send stuff like this out at "fundraisers".

You're an idiot.

 

[FifthColumn]

The rebel flag is and has always been a symbol of racism and treason.



Deal.

Not if you're Robert E Lee.

 

[FifthColumn]

Why don't you explain to the class what the Civil war was about?

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Why don't you RAVI, master of American History, tell us all approximately how many Southerners actually owned slaves? Maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 Southerners?

Now explain to us all why 98% of the South would take up arms to fight for the right to own slaves when 98% of those same people didn't have the money to own slaves and some of them were unemployed because a slave was doing a job that he could have made money doing?

Then tell us why after the Civil War was fought, many former slaves in the South continued to work for the same people who enslaved them and simply got paid for the work they performed, but now the former master was under no obligation to feed, clothe, or house them.

 

[manifold]

Why don't you explain to the class what the Civil war was about?

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Actually, my opinion is more consistent with your's than his, although it does lie somewhere in between.

I was simply pointing out that what you labeled as 'fact' was actually your opinion.

Cheers

 

[Ravi]

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Why don't you RAVI, master of American History, tell us all approximately how many Southerners actually owned slaves? Maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 Southerners?

Now explain to us all why 98% of the South would take up arms to fight for the right to own slaves when 98% of those same people didn't have the money to own slaves and some of them were unemployed because a slave was doing a job that he could have made money doing?

Then tell us why after the Civil War was fought, many former slaves in the South continued to work for the same people who enslaved them and simply got paid for the work they performed, but now the former master was under no obligation to feed, clothe, or house them.

Football mentality.

 

[Ravi]

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Actually, my opinion is more consistent with your's than his, although it does lie somewhere in between.

I was simply pointing out that what you labeled as 'fact' was actually your opinion.

Cheers

It isn't an opinion that the Civil war was fought for the right to keep slaves.

 

[Sheldon]

You seem to already be pretty set in your own opinions, I really don't think you'd have much use for mine.

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Why don't you RAVI, master of American History, tell us all approximately how many Southerners actually owned slaves? Maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 Southerners?

Now explain to us all why 98% of the South would take up arms to fight for the right to own slaves when 98% of those same people didn't have the money to own slaves and some of them were unemployed because a slave was doing a job that he could have made money doing?

Then tell us why after the Civil War was fought, many former slaves in the South continued to work for the same people who enslaved them and simply got paid for the work they performed, but now the former master was under no obligation to feed, clothe, or house them.

Funny thing is, that 1% --or whatever it really was--were the ones calling the shots. And just like politicians and psuedo-oligarchs do today, they were able to sell their agenda to the people by making it personal.

The Norf is trying to tell us how to live. Slavery is our right. Without it, our economy will crumble, and then so to will our way of life.

Pretty simple and effective, as always.

It actually seems like you're arguing that since ~98% percent of the South didn't own slaves, then the preservation of humans-as-property as a right wasn't an issue in the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression ).

 

[LaShaun]

The argument of the Confederate flag is subjective. Take a piece of steak for example. When you see a piece of steak you may see a delicious meal, but when a vegetarian sees a piece of steak they see pain and cruelty to animals. There is never a debate over the Confederate flag based on facts as some of you suggested above, but opinions, As if fighting for either side will somehow make an Opinion become more or less a truth.

 

[manifold]

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Actually, my opinion is more consistent with your's than his, although it does lie somewhere in between.

I was simply pointing out that what you labeled as 'fact' was actually your opinion.

Cheers

It isn't an opinion that the Civil war was fought for the right to keep slaves.

Yes it is.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Actually, my opinion is more consistent with your's than his, although it does lie somewhere in between.

I was simply pointing out that what you labeled as 'fact' was actually your opinion.

Cheers

It isn't an opinion that the Civil war was fought for the right to keep slaves.

Just about as much of an opinion that it was fought to free slaves.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

The argument of the Confederate flag is subjective. Take a piece of steak for example. When you see a piece of steak you may see a delicious meal, but when a vegetarian sees a piece of steak they see pain and cruelty to animals. There is never a debate over the Confederate flag based on facts as some of you suggested above, but opinions, As if fighting for either side will somehow make an Opinion become more or less a truth.

Every post I have made in this discussion has been based on years of research and facts. Thats all I deal with. Some of us backwoods southerners know our history Some of us even know where our ancestors are burried that were killed during that war.

 

[rdean]

Actually...wrong.

Confederate soldiers did not announce, nor did their leaders announce their intention, nor did they attempt, to slaughter Union women and children.

In fact, it was the UNION army that starved out (i.e., killed) Confederacy women and children by ransacking the farms and blockading the ports, resulting in the starvation of who knows how many southern women and children. They were also great at starving Confederate prisoners.

Still, nobody announced any intention to kill off the women & children of the other side.

So they aren't the same.

I'm sure the South was as kind to Union Soldiers as they were to their slaves.

Besides, the Republican Confederate Party is 90% white. Do they really care if they offend a bunch of blacks. If they did, would they send stuff like this out at "fundraisers".

You're an idiot.

At least I'm honest. Call me names if you want, but prove I'm wrong, if you can.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I'm sure the South was as kind to Union Soldiers as they were to their slaves.

Besides, the Republican Confederate Party is 90% white. Do they really care if they offend a bunch of blacks. If they did, would they send stuff like this out at "fundraisers".

You're an idiot.

At least I'm honest. Call me names if you want, but prove I'm wrong, if you can.

Here's one there is no Republican Confederate Party

 

[breaking news]

I've heard people decry the Confederate flag flying on statehouse grounds in SC, saying that it is insensitive.

I've also heard people decry the would be Ground Zero mosque, also saying it is insensitive.

Not surprisingly, there is very little overlap among the two groups doing the decrying.


What I'd like to have explained, by anyone taking any side, is why one is indeed insensitive while the other is not.


note: Thread inspired by Ravi's self-pwnage in another thread.

Abortion is insensitive and not sending murders to the gas chamber is insensitive and troll noobs is insensitive!

 

[JamesInFlorida]

I don't think the confederate flag should be flown on public land, not because of the racism symbolism attached to it (which I don't think is fair btw), but because no matter how you shake it down-it's a very controversial symbol-which many taxpayers don't agree with for varying reasons.

As for private property-fly it all you want.