Confederate Flag vs. Ground Zero Mosque?

[bigrebnc1775]

I don't think the confederate flag should be flown on public land, not because of the racism symbolism attached to it (which I don't think is fair btw), but because no matter how you shake it down-it's a very controversial symbol-which many taxpayers don't agree with for varying reasons.

As for private property-fly it all you want.

Do you live in a state that has this issue?

 

[JamesInFlorida]

I don't think the confederate flag should be flown on public land, not because of the racism symbolism attached to it (which I don't think is fair btw), but because no matter how you shake it down-it's a very controversial symbol-which many taxpayers don't agree with for varying reasons.

As for private property-fly it all you want.

Do you live in a state that has this issue?

Some people are offended by the flag (I'm personally not). There's a HUGE confederate flag here right by I-4 and I-75. Now it's flown on private property-so I think they have the right to fly it-but it did create a pretty big uproar here. It didn't go over all that smoothly. Therefore do I think it should be allowed to be flown on public land? No. Because if that was the case-it would have been paid for by the taxpaying public-many of which have a big problem with the flag. I'm honestly not aware of any confederate flag flying on public land here in the Tampa area, not sure about the rest of Florida though.

And in highschool we were not allowed to have anything that resembled a confederate flag while on school property (at a public highschool).

 

[Ravi]

Actually, my opinion is more consistent with your's than his, although it does lie somewhere in between.

I was simply pointing out that what you labeled as 'fact' was actually your opinion.

Cheers

It isn't an opinion that the Civil war was fought for the right to keep slaves.

Just about as much of an opinion that it was fought to free slaves.

No. What you've posted is an opinion, and an opinion that happens to be wrong.

From the Union side the civil war was fought to keep the southern states part of the Union. From the confederate side it was fought to break away from the Union for the purpose of keeping slaves.

 

[Ravi]

No problem, you're probably embarrassed that you've been taken in by buggerreb's revisionist history.

Why don't you RAVI, master of American History, tell us all approximately how many Southerners actually owned slaves? Maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 Southerners?

Now explain to us all why 98% of the South would take up arms to fight for the right to own slaves when 98% of those same people didn't have the money to own slaves and some of them were unemployed because a slave was doing a job that he could have made money doing?

Then tell us why after the Civil War was fought, many former slaves in the South continued to work for the same people who enslaved them and simply got paid for the work they performed, but now the former master was under no obligation to feed, clothe, or house them.

Funny thing is, that 1% --or whatever it really was--were the ones calling the shots. And just like politicians and psuedo-oligarchs do today, they were able to sell their agenda to the people by making it personal.

The Norf is trying to tell us how to live. Slavery is our right. Without it, our economy will crumble, and then so to will our way of life.

Pretty simple and effective, as always.

It actually seems like you're arguing that since ~98% percent of the South didn't own slaves, then the preservation of humans-as-property as a right wasn't an issue in the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression ).

Yep...thanks, I was too lazy for details so I thought football mentality would cover it.

 

[Mini 14]

The Confederate Flag represents Americans who believed, fought, died, and were defeated for their beliefs. It is incredibly insensitive to disrespect the descendants of those dissenters simply because you don't agree with what their Great, Great, Great Grandmother believed, or to reduce the symbolism of the flag to a representation of a single, tangential issue of the time simply because it is an easy weapon with which to beat your fellow Americans over the head.

The mosque represents muslims, who are fucking animals, not humans. What is insensitive to a jackal, or coyote?

There is really no comparison.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

It isn't an opinion that the Civil war was fought for the right to keep slaves.

Just about as much of an opinion that it was fought to free slaves.

No. What you've posted is an opinion, and an opinion that happens to be wrong.

From the Union side the civil war was fought to keep the southern states part of the Union. From the confederate side it was fought to break away from the Union for the purpose of keeping slaves.

Exactly which one is an opinion. Here the post that you never addressed.

Now SHUT THE FUCK UP

Why are you so afraid of the truth? These are just covering South Carolina, which you claimed didn't secede over slavery.



Avalon Project - Confederate States of America - Declaration of the Immediate Causes Which Induce and Justify the Secession of South Carolina from the Federal Union

We Want No Confederacy without Slavery

Why is it that you left out this par of my comment? Why are you afraid of the truth? You did make this comment

All you need do is read the documents put forth by the founders of the confederacy...they all mention slavery as the ultimate reason for the war.

Yet you use an opinated source I provided the Ordinances of Secession That is the tell all documents of the reason why they left the union

South Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by us in convention on the twenty-third day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying amendments of the said Constitution, are hereby repealed; and that the union now subsisting between South Carolina and other States, under the name of the "United States of America," is hereby dissolved.

Done at Charleston the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty.


Mississippi
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of Mississippi and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The people of the State of Mississippi, in convention assembled, do ordain and declare, and it is hereby ordained and declared, as follows, to wit:

Section 1. That all the laws and ordinances by which the said State of Mississippi became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that all obligations on the part of the said State or the people thereof to observe the same be withdrawn, and that the said State doth hereby resume all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws or ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the said United States, and is absolved from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred to the said Federal Union, and shall from henceforth be a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Sec. 2. That so much of the first section of the seventh article of the constitution of this State as requires members of the Legislature and all officers, executive and judicial, to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same is hereby, abrogated and annulled.

Sec. 3. That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed, or treaty made, in pursuance thereof, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Sec. 4. That the people of the State of Mississippi hereby consent to form a federal union with such of the States as may have seceded or may secede from the Union of the United States of America, upon the basis of the present Constitution of the said United States, except such parts thereof as embrace other portions than such seceding States.

Thus ordained and declared in convention the 9th day of January, in the year of our Lord 1861.

North Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of North Carolina and the other States united with her, under the compact of government entitled "The Constitution of the United States."

We, the people of the State of North Carolina in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by the State of North Carolina in the convention of 1789, whereby the Constitution of the United States was ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly ratifying and adopting amendments to the said Constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded, and abrogated.

We do further declare and ordain, That the union now subsisting between the State of North Carolina and the other States, under the title of the United States of America, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of North Carolina is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

Done in convention at the city of Raleigh, this the 20th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the independence of said State.

Tennessee
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

[sent to referendum 6 May 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on 8 June 1861]

Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America

An opinionated source... An actual document issued by the state of South Carolina.

Here's the actual document

Ordinance of Secession, South Carolina, 1860

 

[FifthColumn]

[]Football mentality.

One more thing Professor, a lot of Union soldiers wouldn't have fought the Civil War if it was about slavery alone.

Ever hear of the New York City Draft Riots?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I don't think the confederate flag should be flown on public land, not because of the racism symbolism attached to it (which I don't think is fair btw), but because no matter how you shake it down-it's a very controversial symbol-which many taxpayers don't agree with for varying reasons.

As for private property-fly it all you want.

Do you live in a state that has this issue?

Some people are offended by the flag (I'm personally not). There's a HUGE confederate flag here right by I-4 and I-75. Now it's flown on private property-so I think they have the right to fly it-but it did create a pretty big uproar here. It didn't go over all that smoothly. Therefore do I think it should be allowed to be flown on public land? No. Because if that was the case-it would have been paid for by the taxpaying public-many of which have a big problem with the flag. I'm honestly not aware of any confederate flag flying on public land here in the Tampa area, not sure about the rest of Florida though.

And in highschool we were not allowed to have anything that resembled a confederate flag while on school property (at a public highschool).

And in highschool we were not allowed to have anything that resembled a confederate flag while on school property (at a public highschool).

Yes have seen some of the bull shit people put on tshirts and I agree. They dis honor the Flag. When I was cop years ago at the time I did not know it, but I made the grand wizzard take two 6' x 4' battle flags that he was fling from the back of his truck while driving trough areas that blacks hung out. How did the school address those SCV tags?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

[]Football mentality.

One more thing Professor, a lot of Union soldiers wouldn't have fought the Civil War if it was about slavery alone.

Ever here of the New York City Draft Riots?

1863 and the white New Yorker's beat up on any blacks they saw. The Irish were known for their hatred of blacks.

 

[Mini 14]

[]Football mentality.

One more thing Professor, a lot of Union soldiers wouldn't have fought the Civil War if it was about slavery alone.

Ever here of the New York City Draft Riots?

1863 and the white New Yorker's beat up on any blacks they saw. The Irish were known for their hatred of blacks.

True.

But the Irish hate everyone, so I'm not sure that's a good reference.

 

[FifthColumn]

Why don't you RAVI, master of American History, tell us all approximately how many Southerners actually owned slaves? Maybe 1 or 2 out of every 100 Southerners?

Now explain to us all why 98% of the South would take up arms to fight for the right to own slaves when 98% of those same people didn't have the money to own slaves and some of them were unemployed because a slave was doing a job that he could have made money doing?

Then tell us why after the Civil War was fought, many former slaves in the South continued to work for the same people who enslaved them and simply got paid for the work they performed, but now the former master was under no obligation to feed, clothe, or house them.

Funny thing is, that 1% --or whatever it really was--were the ones calling the shots. And just like politicians and psuedo-oligarchs do today, they were able to sell their agenda to the people by making it personal.

The Norf is trying to tell us how to live. Slavery is our right. Without it, our economy will crumble, and then so to will our way of life.

Pretty simple and effective, as always.

It actually seems like you're arguing that since ~98% percent of the South didn't own slaves, then the preservation of humans-as-property as a right wasn't an issue in the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression ).

Yep...thanks, I was too lazy for details so I thought football mentality would cover it.

Slavery was an issue. But would you sacrifice your life so the plantations of the RICH southerners, who never mingled with POOR whites, could have slaves?

Hmmm? I wonder how many POOR white Americans today will fight for the right to allow Mexicans to take jobs and benefits away from POOR white Americans.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

One more thing Professor, a lot of Union soldiers wouldn't have fought the Civil War if it was about slavery alone.

Ever here of the New York City Draft Riots?

1863 and the white New Yorker's beat up on any blacks they saw. The Irish were known for their hatred of blacks.

True.

But the Irish hate everyone, so I'm not sure that's a good reference.

Not true about hating everybody, but they did go directly after the blacks, not the rich white people in New York city.

 

[Mini 14]

1863 and the white New Yorker's beat up on any blacks they saw. The Irish were known for their hatred of blacks.

True.

But the Irish hate everyone, so I'm not sure that's a good reference.

Not true about hating everybody, but they did go directly after the blacks, not the rich white people in New York city.

Blacks, Chinese, American Indians, British, Protestants......

Seems like they've only left out the Irish in the list of People the Irish hate?

(I don't know what their feelings are with regard to the French, but who cares about the French anyway?)

 

[FifthColumn]

1863 and the white New Yorker's beat up on any blacks they saw. The Irish were known for their hatred of blacks.

True.

But the Irish hate everyone, so I'm not sure that's a good reference.

Not true about hating everybody, but they did go directly after the blacks, not the rich white people in New York city.

But in all fairness to the Irish. Some were just off the boat from Ireland and were getting drafted while blacks were taking the jobs that hungry Irish would do.

 

[rdean]

You're an idiot.

At least I'm honest. Call me names if you want, but prove I'm wrong, if you can.

Here's one there is no Republican Confederate Party

Don't tell southern white Republicans that.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

True.

But the Irish hate everyone, so I'm not sure that's a good reference.

Not true about hating everybody, but they did go directly after the blacks, not the rich white people in New York city.

Blacks, Chinese, American Indians, British, Protestants......

Seems like they've only left out the Irish in the list of People the Irish hate?

(I don't know what their feelings are with regard to the French, but who cares about the French anyway?)

British? Do you not know the history of England and Ireland? The Irish loved the Scottish, they hated the English and for good reason.

Protestants? They were Catholic even American Catholics do not like American Protestants

American Indians? Do you really want to go their? Most all whites hated the American Indian including most blacks.

Chinese? They were not here in masses during the war between the states.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

At least I'm honest. Call me names if you want, but prove I'm wrong, if you can.

Here's one there is no Republican Confederate Party

Don't tell southern white Republicans that.

It wa a lie because they is no Republican Confederate Party. You wanted it pointed out so I did.

 

[Ravi]

edited

I did address it. You pick and choose what confirms your bias. The speeches and documents that led up to SC (and the other states) leaving the Union are all about slavery. That you find some documents that don't contain the term matters not...the body of work is what matters.

It is also a myth that the South was about state's rights. Part of the reason they left the Union was because northern states were choosing not to enforce slavery laws. But they didn't care about the state's rights of other states...only about their own.

 

[Ravi]

Funny thing is, that 1% --or whatever it really was--were the ones calling the shots. And just like politicians and psuedo-oligarchs do today, they were able to sell their agenda to the people by making it personal.

The Norf is trying to tell us how to live. Slavery is our right. Without it, our economy will crumble, and then so to will our way of life.

Pretty simple and effective, as always.

It actually seems like you're arguing that since ~98% percent of the South didn't own slaves, then the preservation of humans-as-property as a right wasn't an issue in the Civil War (or War of Northern Aggression ).

Yep...thanks, I was too lazy for details so I thought football mentality would cover it.

Slavery was an issue. But would you sacrifice your life so the plantations of the RICH southerners, who never mingled with POOR whites, could have slaves?

Hmmm? I wonder how many POOR white Americans today will fight for the right to allow Mexicans to take jobs and benefits away from POOR white Americans.

Aren't you one of the ones that has a fit at the thought of people that make 100 times your income are paying more taxes?

Again, not owning slaves did not mean that many Southerners were against slavery. In fact they enjoyed the benefits of a slave based economy and were afraid that if slaves were free the blacks would marry their sisters.

Some things never change, as your comment about Mexicans proves.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

edited

I did address it. You pick and choose what confirms your bias. The speeches and documents that led up to SC (and the other states) leaving the Union are all about slavery. That you find some documents that don't contain the term matters not...the body of work is what matters.

It is also a myth that the South was about state's rights. Part of the reason they left the Union was because northern states were choosing not to enforce slavery laws. But they didn't care about the state's rights of other states...only about their own.

Stop editing my post.

I did address it. You pick and choose what confirms your bias. The speeches and documents that led up to SC (and the other states) leaving the Union are all about slavery. That you find some documents that don't contain the term matters not...the body of work is what matters.

No you did not address the Ordinances of Secession those are the documents that gave the reason why the south left the union. The Ordinances of Secession is what matters.

All you need do is read the documents put forth by the founders of the confederacy...they all mention slavery as the ultimate reason for the war.

Yet you use an opinated source I provided the Ordinances of Secession That is the tell all documents of the reason why they left the union

South Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of South Carolina and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

We, the people of the State of South Carolina, in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by us in convention on the twenty-third day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly of this State ratifying amendments of the said Constitution, are hereby repealed; and that the union now subsisting between South Carolina and other States, under the name of the "United States of America," is hereby dissolved.

Done at Charleston the twentieth day of December, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty.


Mississippi
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of Mississippi and other States united with her under the compact entitled "The Constitution of the United States of America."

The people of the State of Mississippi, in convention assembled, do ordain and declare, and it is hereby ordained and declared, as follows, to wit:

Section 1. That all the laws and ordinances by which the said State of Mississippi became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America be, and the same are hereby, repealed, and that all obligations on the part of the said State or the people thereof to observe the same be withdrawn, and that the said State doth hereby resume all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws or ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the said United States, and is absolved from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred to the said Federal Union, and shall from henceforth be a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Sec. 2. That so much of the first section of the seventh article of the constitution of this State as requires members of the Legislature and all officers, executive and judicial, to take an oath or affirmation to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same is hereby, abrogated and annulled.

Sec. 3. That all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed, or treaty made, in pursuance thereof, or under any law of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

Sec. 4. That the people of the State of Mississippi hereby consent to form a federal union with such of the States as may have seceded or may secede from the Union of the United States of America, upon the basis of the present Constitution of the said United States, except such parts thereof as embrace other portions than such seceding States.

Thus ordained and declared in convention the 9th day of January, in the year of our Lord 1861.

North Carolina
AN ORDINANCE to dissolve the union between the State of North Carolina and the other States united with her, under the compact of government entitled "The Constitution of the United States."

We, the people of the State of North Carolina in convention assembled, do declare and ordain, and it is hereby declared and ordained, That the ordinance adopted by the State of North Carolina in the convention of 1789, whereby the Constitution of the United States was ratified and adopted, and also all acts and parts of acts of the General Assembly ratifying and adopting amendments to the said Constitution, are hereby repealed, rescinded, and abrogated.

We do further declare and ordain, That the union now subsisting between the State of North Carolina and the other States, under the title of the United States of America, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of North Carolina is in full possession and exercise of all those rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State.

Done in convention at the city of Raleigh, this the 20th day of May, in the year of our Lord 1861, and in the eighty-fifth year of the independence of said State.

Tennessee
DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE AND ORDINANCE dissolving the federal relations between the State of Tennessee and the United States of America.

First. We, the people of the State of Tennessee, waiving any expression of opinion as to the abstract doctrine of secession, but asserting the right, as a free and independent people, to alter, reform, or abolish our form of government in such manner as we think proper, do ordain and declare that all the laws and ordinances by which the State of Tennessee became a member of the Federal Union of the United States of America are hereby abrogated and annulled, and that all the rights, functions, and powers which by any of said laws and ordinances were conveyed to the Government of the United States, and to absolve ourselves from all the obligations, restraints, and duties incurred thereto; and do hereby henceforth become a free, sovereign, and independent State.

Second. We furthermore declare and ordain that article 10, sections 1 and 2, of the constitution of the State of Tennessee, which requires members of the General Assembly and all officers, civil and military, to take an oath to support the Constitution of the United States be, and the same are hereby, abrogated and annulled, and all parts of the constitution of the State of Tennessee making citizenship of the United States a qualification for office and recognizing the Constitution of the United States as the supreme law of this State are in like manner abrogated and annulled.

Third. We furthermore ordain and declare that all rights acquired and vested under the Constitution of the United States, or under any act of Congress passed in pursuance thereof, or under any laws of this State, and not incompatible with this ordinance, shall remain in force and have the same effect as if this ordinance had not been passed.

[sent to referendum 6 May 1861 by the legislature, and approved by the voters by a vote of 104,471 to 47,183 on 8 June 1861]

Ordinances of Secession 13 Confederate States of America[/QUOTE]

An opinionated source... An actual document issued by the state of South Carolina.

Here's the actual document

Ordinance of Secession, South Carolina, 1860

It is also a myth that the South was about state's rights. Part of the reason they left the Union was because northern states were choosing not to enforce slavery laws. But they didn't care about the state's rights of other states...only about their own

Horseshit The federal government want to impose higher tariff's on imports which is what the south lived on. Imports from Eroupe.

http://www.brtprojects.org/cyberschool/history/ch13/13answers.pdf