Conservatives sold themselves two lies

[Flopper]

I don’t know if this is even viable, but my thinking is bring our soldiers home, all of them. Retrain them, and put them to work guarding and patrolling our borders and rebuilding our infrastructure.

For me, that’s a good start in the right direction.

Russian and China would certainly support your idea.

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

This is pretty uninsightful considering that it's not like there was another choice for people who are fed up with DC. I voted for Gary Johnson, but I had another option since I'm a libertarian

So, no changes needed by the GOP, it's all good?
.

Wow, there's no possible way to get to that out of what I said.

I said Trump was the only Republican choice that said they are not happy. You offered no alternative proposal on that either. So if I were an unhappy Republican, my choices to say that were what, Trump and ???

Democrats were the same. A lot of non-socialists voted for Socialist Bernie just to say they weren't happy.

Criticizing that is not a real point unless you make an actual suggestion of what they could have done that would have been better

I've explained that in this thread. I've also explained that this requires patience and time, that it has to happen incrementally and not overnight. I've been told by conservatives that there's no time, that they're doing this the only way they can.

So, okay, we'll see how it goes.
.

Well, you're an establishment Republican. Republicans have been "patient" my entire life, and we got shit for it. That's why I left the party under HW. Patient was a euphemism for do nothing.

I agree with you in so far that Trump wasn't an adequate choice for me. I'm TBD in 2020. But I totally get and agree with the Republicans who want to start fighting back with Democrats. Patience is getting you nothing ever

Holy crap, I wouldn't make a very good Establishment Republican. I voted for Hillary and lean Left. See line 2 of my sig.

I can pretty much guarantee you that the Dems are very hopeful you'll fight back, and continue to ignore the the cultural and demographic shift this country is experiencing. The last thing they want you to do is de-Trumpify.

What concerns me is that the Regressive Left (illiberal leftist authoritarians) have taken over the Democratic Party, and the GOP's inexplicable refusal to reach out to minorities will usher the Regressives right back in. Starting in a few months.
.

 

[Witchit]

I don’t know if this is even viable, but my thinking is bring our soldiers home, all of them. Retrain them, and put them to work guarding and patrolling our borders and rebuilding our infrastructure.

For me, that’s a good start in the right direction.

Russian and China would certainly support your idea.

I guess I'm not as liberal as I thought?

 

[Coyote]

We don't have that kind of time. The Left's use of Third World immigration to turn the US into a defacto, One Party, Third World shit hole is barreling at US like a freight train on crack. We have to radically change people's perceptions with results, NOW, or we will be shut out of every having a chance to try again.

I know that's the philosophy - "this can ONLY be done NOW, right NOW" - but the Left could have said the same thing back in the 80's. Instead, they remained consistent and patient and ingrained their message into our very CULTURE.

If there's one thing the GOP can do - and frankly, I think it's too late at this point - it is to stop ignoring (and even mocking) the massive upcoming demographic shift and embrace it.

I know, the GOP doesn't want to play the Identity Politics game, and I sure as hell can't blame you. But if you don't come up with a way to attract minorities, then just punt. And as I mentioned in the OP, this ain't about the unemployment rate or the stock market. This is much DEEPER than that. This is PERSONAL. The GOP has to figure THAT out, TOO.
.

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

 

[Coyote]

The GOP is a wasteland. My point is that Republicans are in office right now because Democrats didn't practice what you're preaching. They took shortcuts and now we're paying for it.

Sure, PC and Identity Politics are intellectually dishonest, cowardly, counter-productive and incredibly cynical. But they sure have been effective. So here we are, and the GOP is pretty much out of time to do anything about it.

I think they could have, but they wanted to stick to their "principles". Okay, that's their call. As I said, here we are.
.

???

Not sure what you don't get.

I've said all along - Demographics are in the process of dramatically changing, and the GOP is completely ignoring that fact.

If you disagree, if you think the party is cruising along in no danger, then we definitely disagree.
.

Why don't you just say what you think the GOP should do in response to these demographic changes instead of beating around the bush.

I've been saying it forever: They have to reach out to minorities with a message that's sincere. And part of that message has to be an admission that the Right has made some pretty obvious screwups.

Look at the posts: So far no conservative agrees. That's selling out. That's pandering.

Okay, that's fine, but that's what it would take. Anything less is just rolling over.
.

Ironically...I think the Dems are in the same boat.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The Left has been patient and consistent, and that's why it will ultimately get its way.
.

I think you're kidding yourself there. The left has been all too willing to push for radical change without real consensus. Arguably, that's WHY we're saddled with Trump. The Democrats abandoned their efforts to convince people and grow support, and pushed for change that had no consensus behind it. Major changes like health care reform need more than 51% support. Systemic changes on a national scale are costly and we shouldn't invest in them unless there is broad support.

Actually not.

Democrats have successfully built consensus on a number of issues:

A majority of Americans support a woman’s right to privacy.

A majority of Americans support equal protection rights for gay and transgender Americans.

A majority of Americans support the decriminalization of marijuana.

A majority of Americans support comprehensive immigration reform.

Indeed, Democrats are victims of their own success, having energized and motivated the right hostile to the above achievements, resulting in Republicans installing a minority government that doesn’t reflect the views and opinions of a majority of Americans.

 

[whitehall]

Lefties sold themselves the lie, not conservatives. The crazy left thought conservatives could yank the entire country into their way of looking at things while conservatives quietly work within the system without smashing windows or torching cars. Bill Clinton coined the phrase "it's the economy stupid" and now fat and happy hypocrite lefties who enjoy a booming economy can't seem to enjoy it without hatred and anger. You could almost call it insanity when angry incoherent lefties can't enjoy a warm summer day without whining about global warming and they can't enjoy a booming economy and low unemployment without hate speech about conservative values.

 

[dblack]

Indeed, Democrats are victims of their own success, having energized and motivated the right hostile to the above achievements, resulting in Republicans installing a minority government that doesn’t reflect the views and opinions of a majority of Americans.

Victims of their own hubris, more like it. The Democrat's zeal for social engineering created Trump.

 

[Flopper]

We don't have that kind of time. The Left's use of Third World immigration to turn the US into a defacto, One Party, Third World shit hole is barreling at US like a freight train on crack. We have to radically change people's perceptions with results, NOW, or we will be shut out of every having a chance to try again.

I know that's the philosophy - "this can ONLY be done NOW, right NOW" - but the Left could have said the same thing back in the 80's. Instead, they remained consistent and patient and ingrained their message into our very CULTURE.

If there's one thing the GOP can do - and frankly, I think it's too late at this point - it is to stop ignoring (and even mocking) the massive upcoming demographic shift and embrace it.

I know, the GOP doesn't want to play the Identity Politics game, and I sure as hell can't blame you. But if you don't come up with a way to attract minorities, then just punt. And as I mentioned in the OP, this ain't about the unemployment rate or the stock market. This is much DEEPER than that. This is PERSONAL. The GOP has to figure THAT out, TOO.
.

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Which supports what I have always said, stereotype liberals and conservatives are rare creatures. Most Americans have both liberal and conservative views depending on the issue. It may not seem that way when you read this board but you have to keep in mind that this is a political forum. Most people that post a lot are strongly committed to one side or the other.

 

[Oldstyle]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

We have to prove ourselves over time? Dude, it's been a little over a year since Trump was sworn in as President and he's been under nonstop attack from the main stream media and you on the left ever since he beat Hillary yet he's STILL managing to accomplish much of what he promised to do when he campaigned.

You seem to think because he DIDN'T yank the entire country over to his way of looking things overnight...that he's failed! That's quite frankly one of the dumber things someone's posted on here in quite some time. Let's be honest here...there is a HUGE part of the population that will still hate Trump no matter how successful his policies are and quite a few of them will hate him MORE if he's successful! You might want to "examine" that!

Well, you could be right. We'll see how it goes.

Is it safe to say that you have no concerns about the demographic changes coming?
.

Do you have concerns about the demographic changes that have already occurred? I hate to point out an inconvenient truth, Mac but Democrats may have lost the Rust Belt. Blue collar workers don't think you care about them anymore. Union workers don't think you care about them anymore. So what happens if blacks and Hispanics start to prosper under Trump? You guys have been long on promises for both of those communities and short on follow through. Do you have concerns about a shift in loyalties if Trump's policies start making life better for people in general?

 

[blackhawk]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

You assume to much these threads are hardly an accurate description of the thoughts of all Republicans or Democrats you will always have the blind partisans on both sides who think there party is always right and the other side is always wrong but they are a small group who get the most attention because they tend to be loudest. Things are not as great as the Republicans would like everyone to think nor is everything the complete disaster the Democrats claim it is with most things political the truth is somewhere in between the two parties talking points. It's a safe bet the Democrats will make gains in this years midterms but that tends to be the case when one party is totally out of power it was for the Republicans back in 2010 it's the normal ebb and flow of politics neither party holds complete control for very long.

 

[BasicHumanUnit]

Nah, only a fool would think what's going on today is business as usual.

Congrats to the determined Left.
Doesn't matter how. Looks like you'll get the job done.
There is no real resistance on the Right apparently.
I think the entire Right gambled it all on Trump. And he's just a slick talking Progressive after all.
Waiting for the Left to start praising how great Trump is now that he's turned coat.. lmao.

I LOVE that line he used after signing the Democrats budget.....and caving on ALL his promises..
"I'll NEVER sign anything like that again!"....CLASSIC!!!!!!
I'll bet 95% of the Right buys it hook line and sinker. lmao!

It'll be interesting to see how quickly the world changes with China's emerging greatness and power, Americas fall and the fall of right wing America. The Right will just learn to shut the fuck up and be quiet......well....quieter....(which won't be easy).

The Great News?
1000 years from now it won't make a shit can's difference.
We'll all be dust.

 

[Correll]

I don't see why you cite the 80s as an example of the Left not responding the same way.


They were not facing the same situation, at all.




The only possible way I can see breaking the Left's lock on minority voters, is by bringing jobs back at such a rate that middle class whites and minorities note the improvement in their lives, and both shift dramatically to the RIght.


This is unlikely to work, but it is the only possible chance.


We could try to beat the democrats at their own games of handing out money and racial demagoguery, but we will fail and do terrible harm to the nation in the process.

That's mistake #2 I mention above, assuming that your top priorities (economy, jobs) are their top priorities.

I'm telling you, it isn't. And they know that you don't know that, and that only makes things even worse.
.

I'm NOT assuming that. We just don't have any better tools to work with.


We can't outshout them to get our message across, the left owns the media and pop culture.


Hell, they are starting to censor the internet.


We can't out bribe them. The government is broke and we know it. We can't compete with the Left when it comes to spending money we don't have. We just can't.


If we try to out pander them by offering to discriminate more against whites, we A. will still fail to win minority votes and will B. lose white votes, and C. immediately marginalize the majority of the nation from the political process.

Do you feel it's over, then?

The country is turning browner as we speak, so it's either do something or punt.

Which is it?
.

We've done/or are doing pretty much all we can.


What are you going to do about it?

After all, this is a problem coming from the Left, I'm on the outside, unable to even get a listen from 99.999 per cent of you guys.


If America is going to avoid a meltdown, maybe the answer can only come from your side.

If the GOP is going to just roll over, and that appears to be the case, it'll make things tougher on anyone trying to stop this.

I'm on the outside looking in, too. The Regressives have virtually total control of the party right now. I'm doing things locally, and that's the only thing I can think of to do at this point.
.

What exactly do you think we could DO?

 

[Correll]

We don't have that kind of time. The Left's use of Third World immigration to turn the US into a defacto, One Party, Third World shit hole is barreling at US like a freight train on crack. We have to radically change people's perceptions with results, NOW, or we will be shut out of every having a chance to try again.

I know that's the philosophy - "this can ONLY be done NOW, right NOW" - but the Left could have said the same thing back in the 80's. Instead, they remained consistent and patient and ingrained their message into our very CULTURE.

If there's one thing the GOP can do - and frankly, I think it's too late at this point - it is to stop ignoring (and even mocking) the massive upcoming demographic shift and embrace it.

I know, the GOP doesn't want to play the Identity Politics game, and I sure as hell can't blame you. But if you don't come up with a way to attract minorities, then just punt. And as I mentioned in the OP, this ain't about the unemployment rate or the stock market. This is much DEEPER than that. This is PERSONAL. The GOP has to figure THAT out, TOO.
.

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Give me your best example of the GOP, "playing identity politics though rejecting". Cause I don't see it. At all.

 

[Mac1958]

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Yep, very good point. And "rejection" is a very good term.

The GOP is doing this to themselves, and they don't have to. They've been led down the wrong road.
.

 

[Correll]

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Yep, very good point. And "rejection" is a very good term.

The GOP is doing this to themselves, and they don't have to. They've been led down the wrong road.
.

No, we haven't.

 

[Oldstyle]

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Yep, very good point. And "rejection" is a very good term.

The GOP is doing this to themselves, and they don't have to. They've been led down the wrong road.
.

You know what I find most amusing about the left these days, Mac? It's their habit of accusing the opposition of the very thing that they themselves are guilty of. The GOP plays "identity politics"? Really?

 

[Mac1958]

Looking at the threads, it's pretty clear that many of Trump's supporters are throwing up their hands right now. Understandable. Some are blaming Trump, others are blaming the GOP "swamp". Whichever.

Conservatives allowed themselves to believe two lies:

First, that overnight, they could just yank this entire country over to their way of looking at things. Mention "incrementalism" and they'd laugh. They figured things would just go so swimmingly, so quickly, that we'd all just mindlessly fall in line behind them. That's not how it works, guys. You have to prove yourselves. Bit by bit. Over time. You haven't.

Second, that their national priorities are shared by everyone else. Wrong again. You point to the stock market and unemployment as the reasons we should all fall in line. That shows you don't understand that a growing number of people have different priorities. I wonder if you know what they are. You never bring them up. Would any of you like to guess?

We'll know more in eight months. But at some level, you have to know this hasn't been a rousing success so far, and the current trajectory ain't favorable. Outside of blaming someone else, you may want to examine why.
.

We have to prove ourselves over time? Dude, it's been a little over a year since Trump was sworn in as President and he's been under nonstop attack from the main stream media and you on the left ever since he beat Hillary yet he's STILL managing to accomplish much of what he promised to do when he campaigned.

You seem to think because he DIDN'T yank the entire country over to his way of looking things overnight...that he's failed! That's quite frankly one of the dumber things someone's posted on here in quite some time. Let's be honest here...there is a HUGE part of the population that will still hate Trump no matter how successful his policies are and quite a few of them will hate him MORE if he's successful! You might want to "examine" that!

Well, you could be right. We'll see how it goes.

Is it safe to say that you have no concerns about the demographic changes coming?
.

Do you have concerns about the demographic changes that have already occurred? I hate to point out an inconvenient truth, Mac but Democrats may have lost the Rust Belt. Blue collar workers don't think you care about them anymore. Union workers don't think you care about them anymore. So what happens if blacks and Hispanics start to prosper under Trump? You guys have been long on promises for both of those communities and short on follow through. Do you have concerns about a shift in loyalties if Trump's policies start making life better for people in general?

Most importantly, if Trump's and/or Republican policies kick ass, then I'm all for it. I'm not ideological. They're invited to prove me wrong. I'm wrong all the time, just ask my wife.

But your last point is important, because it goes to #2 in the OP: I'm from a mixed-race family. I married into a mixed-race family, and I'm telling ya: With minorities and the GOP, it ain't about jobs or the economy or the stock market. That's the mistake conservatives are making, assuming that minorities have the same priorities. They. Do. Not.

Minorities still feel like outcasts in their own country. And until the GOP recognizes that and specifically addresses it, nothing else is going to matter. Now, if you respond with "the Democrats have essentially cheated with their divisive Identity Politics and PC", well, yeah, I agree. But it is what it is. We are where we are. So the GOP can either continue to not see this, or they can wake up. I don't think they're going to wake up.
.

 

[Mac1958]

That's mistake #2 I mention above, assuming that your top priorities (economy, jobs) are their top priorities.

I'm telling you, it isn't. And they know that you don't know that, and that only makes things even worse.
.

I'm NOT assuming that. We just don't have any better tools to work with.


We can't outshout them to get our message across, the left owns the media and pop culture.


Hell, they are starting to censor the internet.


We can't out bribe them. The government is broke and we know it. We can't compete with the Left when it comes to spending money we don't have. We just can't.


If we try to out pander them by offering to discriminate more against whites, we A. will still fail to win minority votes and will B. lose white votes, and C. immediately marginalize the majority of the nation from the political process.

Do you feel it's over, then?

The country is turning browner as we speak, so it's either do something or punt.

Which is it?
.

We've done/or are doing pretty much all we can.


What are you going to do about it?

After all, this is a problem coming from the Left, I'm on the outside, unable to even get a listen from 99.999 per cent of you guys.


If America is going to avoid a meltdown, maybe the answer can only come from your side.

If the GOP is going to just roll over, and that appears to be the case, it'll make things tougher on anyone trying to stop this.

I'm on the outside looking in, too. The Regressives have virtually total control of the party right now. I'm doing things locally, and that's the only thing I can think of to do at this point.
.

What exactly do you think we could DO?

Please see post 98.
.

 

[Mac1958]

One of the ironies is that there is a substantial conservative reservoir in this demographic shift. In their own way, thr GOP plays their own game of identity politics through rejection, which hands these groups right to the Dems. Many Hispanics and Muslims are culturally conservative and devout.

Yep, very good point. And "rejection" is a very good term.

The GOP is doing this to themselves, and they don't have to. They've been led down the wrong road.
.

You know what I find most amusing about the left these days, Mac? It's their habit of accusing the opposition of the very thing that they themselves are guilty of. The GOP plays "identity politics"? Really?

Partisan ideologues do that. I can't speak for Coyote, but I think the two sides play that game differently. The Left is aggressive, cynical and blatant in its use of Identity Politics, and with the Right it's a more de facto, indirect thing.
.