Contradictions in the Bible?

[LOki]

A moral judgement is simply stating that you think something is good or bad.

I'll accept this for now.

A "sinner" is doing something that harms which is bad.

Nope. It has already been established by Phaedrus that sin is simply disobeying God -- our assessments of bad and good do not enter into it.

Do I have a right to judge people? Sure I do. I judge them by what they do and they judge me by what I do. Lets not try to pretend we are too stupid to be able to tell the difference. Is our judgement always accurate? Of course not. Should we quit trying? Of course not.

First, aren't you the one who so often chimes in here saying we ARE too stupid to understand reality, that we are wrong for attempting to do so prescisely because there is no surety of our accuracy--if the nature of creation is beyond us, on what grounds can you assert that the larger issues of good and evil are not?

Secondly, if sin simply remains disobeying God, upon what basis do we judge sin to be sin. Issac and Abraham was brought up to illustrate the notion that to refuse to do evil, in contradiction to God's demands, is sin. On what basis do we judge another person to be disobedient of God--on what basis would we judge Abraham to be disobedient of God, if we were to discover him preparing to butcher his son in the wilderness?

It's fair to assert anything, the better question is "is it reasonable?" and yes, it is.

On what basis is it reasonable then to assert that Adam and Eve knew, before eating the Fruit, that disobeying God was wrong?

Subjectivley, yep. I have no idea what Truth is however, so who knows?

Is the possibility that sin could subjectively be the right thing to do the basis of moral relativisim? If you have no idea what the Truth is, upon what basis can we assert a person other than ourselves has sinned?

Here's the thing though, I never said everything he created was "good" in the sense you are using.

The sense I'm using is that insisted in the Bible.

Life is "good" but what composes it isn't necessarily so.

You are necessarily wrong if we accept the infallibility of the truth of the Bible.

God, on the other hand, is purely good.

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God?

He created existence knowing the bad would add to the good.

Upon what basis do you claim to know what God knows?

His intentions were always pure.

Upon what basis do you claim to know God's intentions, and upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge them?

This is why I referenced Faust, as God uses the Devil to do good.

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God's usage of the Devil as good? Also, if it is acceptable to use the work of Faust to argue for judging God's usage of the Devil as good, is it acceptable that others argue God's usage of the Devil as evil, citing other works?

...do you agree with dilloducks assessment that moral judgements are not judgements of sin?

They can coincide depending on the person, but they are not inherentley attached.

You remain consistent--good. This allows me to remove a prejudice I held regarding sin being a synonym for evil, you seem to hold firmly to the assertion they are different issues--I can abide by that for now.

How about you, dilloduck? Are you on board?

 

[dilloduck]

Nope. It has already been established by Phaedrus that sin is simply disobeying God -- our assessments of bad and good do not enter into it.

Mine do---God does not want us to harm. If we harm we are disobeying God. I choose to call harming bad.

First, aren't you the one who so often chimes in here saying we ARE too stupid to understand reality, that we are wrong for attempting to do so prescisely because there is no surety of our accuracy--if the nature of creation is beyond us, on what grounds can you assert that the larger issues of good and evil are not?

not stupid--ignorant. There is a difference. We are not wrong for trying. We are wrong to always assume we are correct

Secondly, if sin simply remains disobeying God, upon what basis do we judge sin to be sin. Issac and Abraham was brought up to illustrate the notion that to refuse to do evil, in contradiction to God's demands, is sin. On what basis do we judge another person to be disobedient of God--on what basis would we judge Abraham to be disobedient of God, if we were to discover him preparing to butcher his son in the wilderness?

Abraham was willing to obey and passed the Gods' test. God spared Abraham from having to harm to obey.

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God?

Upon what basis do you claim to know what God knows?

Upon what basis do you claim to know God's intentions, and upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge them?

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God's usage of the Devil as good? Also, if it is acceptable to use the work of Faust to argue for judging God's usage of the Devil as good, is it acceptable that others argue God's usage of the Devil as evil, citing other works?

My experience and talents that God has given me

How about you, dilloduck? Are you on board?

Depends on which boat you're talking about.

 

[Nienna]

Wow. I wish I would have gotten in on this thread earlier.

 

[MissileMan]

I don't fully understand what you're asking here? Care to help me out?

In our judicial system, we recognize the need for a defendant to "know" their crime was wrong. The young and mentally infirm are often not punished because they lacked an understanding that what they were doing was wrong. I'm asking how Adam and Eve could have had an understanding of their offense without having first eaten from the tree. I'm of the opinion that to do what's right (intentionally) you must know what's good and to do what's wrong (intentionally) you must know what's evil.

 

[deaddude]

Why do people think that they can separate the spiritual world from government, science or anything else for that matter?

Because their is simply no evidence for the existance of a spiritual world.

 

[LOki]

Nope. It has already been established by Phaedrus that sin is simply disobeying God -- our assessments of bad and good do not enter into it.

Mine do---God does not want us to harm. If we harm we are disobeying God. I choose to call harming bad.

To clarify, as a self proclaimed judge of sin, upon what basis do you judge sin?

not stupid--ignorant. There is a difference. We are not wrong for trying. We are wrong to always assume we are correct

I stand corrected, even if I disagree with your assertion that we "always assume we are correct."

Abraham was willing to obey and passed the Gods' test. God spared Abraham from having to harm to obey.

Irrelevent and evasive.

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God?

Upon what basis do you claim to know what God knows?

Upon what basis do you claim to know God's intentions, and upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge them?

Upon what basis is it appropriate for you to judge God's usage of the Devil as good? Also, if it is acceptable to use the work of Faust to argue for judging God's usage of the Devil as good, is it acceptable that others argue God's usage of the Devil as evil, citing other works?

My experience and talents that God has given me

For clarification, you judge God? If so, what are your qualifications for the judging of God?

For clarification, do you claim to know all of what God knows?

For clarification, is your knowledge of God's intentions directly the result of knowing all that God knows?

 

[Joz]

In our judicial system, we recognize the need for a defendant to "know" their crime was wrong. The young and mentally infirm are often not punished because they lacked an understanding that what they were doing was wrong. I'm asking how Adam and Eve could have had an understanding of their offense without having first eaten from the tree. I'm of the opinion that to do what's right (intentionally) you must know what's good and to do what's wrong (intentionally) you must know what's evil.

Adam & Eve were perfect. They were made in the image of God; whether that means actually physically or if it was according to a blueprint. They were not handicapped in any way. And God told them not to eat or touch the tree; it would have the consequences of death. That should have been enough, right? Like telling your kid not to go into the street; they'll get a spanking. The child may not understand the dangers of going into the street, other than you said no and that they would be spanked. But they understand what you said.

Did Eve doubt God's word? Was the serpent so beguiling? I don't know exactly what were Eve's thoughts, but she caved. And so did Adam. And look at the mess we have.

 

[dilloduck]

To clarify, as a self proclaimed judge of sin, upon what basis do you judge sin?

I stand corrected, even if I disagree with your assertion that we "always assume we are correct."

Irrelevent and evasive.

For clarification, you judge God? If so, what are your qualifications for the judging of God?

For clarification, do you claim to know all of what God knows?

For clarification, is your knowledge of God's intentions directly the result of knowing all that God knows?

What are your qualifications for posting?

 

[MissileMan]

Adam & Eve were perfect. They were made in the image of God; whether that means actually physically or if it was according to a blueprint. They were not handicapped in any way. And God told them not to eat or touch the tree; it would have the consequences of death. That should have been enough, right?

No...that's my point. Because they had no knowledge of good and evil, it was impossible IMO for them to understand their decision.

Like telling your kid not to go into the street; they'll get a spanking. The child may not understand the dangers of going into the street, other than you said no and that they would be spanked. But they understand what you said.

Only after you educate them that doing something after you've said no carries consequences. It starts with telling them "NO" when they start grabbing breakables and then smacking their hands to reinforce the "NO" when they do it again. You are providing them with the knowledge of right/wrong...good/evil.

 

[Joz]

No...that's my point. Because they had no knowledge of good and evil, it was impossible IMO for them to understand their decision.
Only after you educate them that doing something after you've said no carries consequences. It starts with telling them "NO" when they start grabbing breakables and then smacking their hands to reinforce the "NO" when they do it again. You are providing them with the knowledge of right/wrong...good/evil.

I understand what you are saying. But have you learned everything by doing? Haven't you learned on someone's word? Didn't you trust what your parents said?
And we're talking here about God. Do you doubt what He says? Would you doubt Him if you walked through the Garden daily with Him? I know I screw up but it seems perposterous sometimes to me, that someone in this position would.
Still Eve did. The serpent told her she'd be better for it, that she would be like God. And she believed him.

Am I understanding you right? You think God was unfair?

 

[LOki]

What are your qualifications for posting?

Is this your way of telling me that my qualifications for posting are the same qualifications for judging God?

Or is this, as I suspect, your transparently bullshit attempt at avoiding answering my questions?

 

[LOki]

Adam & Eve were perfect. They were made in the image of God; whether that means actually physically or if it was according to a blueprint. They were not handicapped in any way.

Would perfect beings disobey God?

If so, then disobeying God is not wrong--if not, then Adam and Eve were not perfect.

And God told them not to eat or touch the tree; it would have the consequences of death. That should have been enough, right? Like telling your kid not to go into the street; they'll get a spanking. The child may not understand the dangers of going into the street, other than you said no and that they would be spanked. But they understand what you said.

Does getting a spanking make going into the street bad? Does the promise of death make eating the Fruit bad? Consider carefully. Particularly consider the promise of death.

If so, then punishment is what retroactively determines sin, and thus, there is not sin if it goes unpunished--if not then your assertion remains completely unfounded.

 

[dilloduck]

Is this your way of telling me that my qualifications for posting are the same qualifications for judging God?

Or is this, as I suspect, your transparently bullshit attempt at avoiding answering my questions?

wrong on both counts--what qualifies you to make judgments about anything?

 

[Joz]

Would perfect beings disobey God?

Apparently. Lucifer & one third of the angels, did. Because they had freewill.

Does getting a spanking make going into the street bad? Does the promise of death make eating the Fruit bad? Consider carefully. Particularly consider the promise of death.

Going into the street is not bad. Neither is eating fruit. Disobeying, especially God, is.

Now I have a question for you. Why are you in this thread? You don't seem to be here to exchange ideas or find answers. You don't believe in the Bible. You only seem to want to tell us just how wrong we are and that we're nuts (my words not yours) that we believe the way we do.

Wasn't Loki some mythology guy to do with Norse gods and fraud & mischief?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

I understand what you are saying. But have you learned everything by doing? Haven't you learned on someone's word? Didn't you trust what your parents said?

You certainly don't learn everything by doing, but you wouldn't understand right from wrong without doing. That's why every child reaches a stage where they question authority. Show me one child who has never learned by doing at least once. You can't understand what punishment is and means without experiencing the punishment. Whether or not the child analogy is a good or bad one I'll leave up for debate.

 

[Joz]

You certainly don't learn everything by doing, but you wouldn't understand right from wrong without doing. That's why every child reaches a stage where they question authority. Show me one child who has never learned by doing at least once. You can't understand what punishment is and means without experiencing the punishment. Whether or not the child analogy is a good or bad one I'll leave up for debate.

Maybe the child analogy wasn't a good one.
But I will tell you this. I was told recreational drug use could be harmful. I believed those that told me. I have never used drugs. I didn't have to do it to learn. The most experienced isn't always the wisest.

We are talking about disobeying GOD.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Maybe the child analogy wasn't a good one.
But I will tell you this. I was told recreational drug use could be harmful. I believed those that told me. I have never used drugs. I didn't have to do it to learn. The most experienced isn't always the wisest.

We are talking about disobeying GOD.

I'm guessing, with drugs, you've known some who've experienced the harmful effects themselves. People don't tell you "drugs are harmful period."

They say drugs will ruin your life like this, or THIS could happen, look at THIS guy, how screwed he is.

If there had never been a negative consequence to drug usage ever recorded, yet someone told you never to take drugs, I'm not sure you couldn't honestly say you'd have the same motivation not to take drugs, if any at all.

 

[Diuretic]

Wasn't Loki some mythology guy to do with Norse gods and fraud & mischief?

I suspect this Loki is the god of consistency.

 

[Joz]

I suspect this Loki is the god of consistency.

That he is.

 

[Joz]

I'm guessing, with drugs, you've known some who've experienced the harmful effects themselves.

Nope.

If there had never been a negative consequence to drug usage ever recorded, yet someone told you never to take drugs, I'm not sure you couldn't honestly say you'd have the same motivation not to take drugs, if any at all.

Don't know. There are some things that just make sense to me. Putting something foreign into your body, just can't be good for it. I've never known anyone to step in front of a bus. But something tells me that wouldn't be a good idea.

And again, we're talking GOD, here. You're putting God on a human level. He spoke the world into existence. Why would you not believe Him???