Could Trump Actually Deport 11 Million People?

[georgephillip]

The fact is that there are plenty of unskilled workers in America who are losing out on jobs to illegals because employers can skirt the laws by employing them. People gave good examples of this in this thread . . . those who mentioned hiring illegals to do their landscaping or housecleaning because it is "cheaper." Ta da!!! There's the proof in front of your eyes.

How do you justify denying labor the same right to migration as capital currently possesses?

I agree there are many urban jobs lost to domestic labor because immigrants work cheaper and harder. Farm labor is an entirely separate beast, imho.

Neither capital or labor has any "right" to cross borders.

Such a "right" would violate the Right of Self Determination.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp0459.pdf (p.16)
D. Growth of Financial Flows Foreign direct investment (FDI) flows between Mexico and its partners strengthened after NAFTA. The agreement contained various provisions that improved the relative standing of investors from the partner countries in Mexico and expanded the sectors in which they could operate.

"These changes helped boost FDI flows to Mexico from US$12 billion over 1991–93 to roughly US$54 billion in the 2000–02 period and increased share of FDI flows in domestic gross fixed capital formation (investment) from 6 percent in 1993 to 11 percent in 2002, mainly on account of inflows from Mexico’s NAFTA partners (Figures 6a and 6b)."

 

[Correll]

I dare you to cut and paste from the article the part where it describes what America would be like without immigrants.


It is not there. Just like I said.

Empty partisan blather.

Designed to fool only those who are willing dupes.

What an excuse......... Here's the cut and paste. I'm not fooling you......... Because you are already fooooolish as it is.


Like most of the founding generation, Cr?vecoeur believed the sheer size of the new nation meant for a prosperous future. But he was also celebrating an attitude of openness, a willingness to embrace new citizens from around the world into what he called the "melting pot" of American society.
The embrace of openness has survived, in spite of occasional outbreaks of anti-immigrant sentiment, for the intervening two and a half centuries. The United States remains an immigrant nation, in spirit as well as in fact. (A fact for which, as an immigrant from the Old Country, I am grateful). My wife is American, and my high schoolers have had U.S. passports since being born in London. Right now I’m applying for U.S. citizenship. I want America to be my home, not just my residence. My story is of course very different to most immigrants – but the point is, all of our stories are different. What unites us is our desire to be American.

But this spirit may be waning. Thanks only in part to Donald Trump, immigration is near the top of the political agenda - and not in a good way.

Trump has brilliantly exploited the imagery of The Wall to tap into the frustrations of white middle America. But America needs immigration. At the most banal level, this is a question of math. We need more young workers to fund the old age of the Baby Boomers. Overall, immigrants are good for the economy, as a recent summary of research from Brookings' Hamilton Project shows.

Of course, while immigration might be good for the economy as a whole, that does not mean it is good for everyone. Competition for wages and jobs will impact negatively on some existing residents, who may be more economically vulnerable in the first place. Policymakers keen to promote the benefits of immigration should also be attentive to its costs.

But the value of immigration cannot be reduced to an actuarial table or spreadsheet. Immigrants do not simply make America better off. They make America better. Immigrants provide a shot in the nation's arm.

Immigrants are now twice as likely to start a new business as native-born Americans. While rates of entrepreneurialism are declining among natives, they are rising among immigrants. Immigrant children typically show extraordinary upward mobility, in terms of income, occupation and education. Among children born in Los Angeles to poorly-educated Chinese immigrants, for example, an astonishing 70% omplete a four-year-college degree.
As the work of my Brookings colleague William Frey shows, immigrants are migrants within the U. S., too, moving on from traditional immigrant cities -- New York and Los Angeles -- to other towns and cities in search of a better future.

New Americans are true Americans. We need more of them. But Trump is tapping directly and dangerously into white fears of an America growing steadily browner. According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, more than four in ten white seniors say that a growing population of immigrants is a “change for the worse;” half of white boomers believe immigration is “a threat to traditional American customs and values.”

Immigration gets at a deep question of American identity in the 21st century. Just like people, societies age. They might also settle down, lose some dynamism. They might trade a little less openness for a little more security. In other words, they get a bit stuck in their ways. Immigrants generate dynamism and aspiration, but they are also unsettling and challenging.

Where this debate ends will therefore tell us a great deal about the trajectory of the nation. An America that closes its doors will be an America that has chosen to settle down rather than grow, allowing security to eclipse dynamism.

Disruption is not costless. But America has always weighed the benefits of dynamism and diversity more heavily. Immigration is an important way in which America hits the refresh button and renews herself. Without immigration, the nation would not only be worse off, but would cease, in some elemental sense, to be America at all.

So the article title claims to talk about what America would be like without immigrants.

Nothing in there tells that.

There are a lot unsupported assertions, such as "The United States remains an immigrant nation, in spirit as well as in fact."

or "New Americans are true Americans".


But there are no descriptions of what this immigrant-less America would look like.

Would there be a smaller population? Would we have never taken California from Mexico, or not bought Alaska from Russia?

Would Fish and CHips be our national dish?



That you could read an article claiming to tell what America would look like without immigrants, and not notice that the article tells NOTHING about what America would look like without immigrants,

demonstrates that you accept what your Authority Figures ie the Media tells you WITHOUT QUESTION.

Blind partisanship.

Scared? Better adopt.

NOthing in your post addressed anything in my post.

My point stands, the article was nothing but partisan blather, and that you thought it was impressive does nothing but remove the last vestiges of your credibility.

Blind partisanship defines Correll's positions on race and immigration.

I note that you had NOTHING to say about the topic, ie the Article, and yet felt a need to attack me personally.

I challenge you to find a description in the article of what "America would look like without immigrants".

And if you try you will fail. Because there isn't one there.

Because, as I said the article is nothing but partisan blather.

If you can't post such a description, that demonstrates that my opinion on the article is correct, and that your knee jerk disagreement with me, was the act of a blind partisan.


You, not me.

NOw, you will dodge.

 

[ChrisL]

The fact is that there are plenty of unskilled workers in America who are losing out on jobs to illegals because employers can skirt the laws by employing them. People gave good examples of this in this thread . . . those who mentioned hiring illegals to do their landscaping or housecleaning because it is "cheaper." Ta da!!! There's the proof in front of your eyes.

How do you justify denying labor the same right to migration as capital currently possesses?

I agree there are many urban jobs lost to domestic labor because immigrants work cheaper and harder. Farm labor is an entirely separate beast, imho.

Neither capital or labor has any "right" to cross borders.

Such a "right" would violate the Right of Self Determination.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp0459.pdf (p.16)
D. Growth of Financial Flows Foreign direct investment (FDI) flows between Mexico and its partners strengthened after NAFTA. The agreement contained various provisions that improved the relative standing of investors from the partner countries in Mexico and expanded the sectors in which they could operate.

"These changes helped boost FDI flows to Mexico from US$12 billion over 1991–93 to roughly US$54 billion in the 2000–02 period and increased share of FDI flows in domestic gross fixed capital formation (investment) from 6 percent in 1993 to 11 percent in 2002, mainly on account of inflows from Mexico’s NAFTA partners (Figures 6a and 6b)."

This has nothing to do with illegal immigration. Lol.

 

[Correll]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for

If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Actually, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a LIE that 11 million illegals are limited to fruit picking. They are found though out the economy.

So, what I WANT is to see wages rise slowing and steadily from now on, for the foreseeable future.


ALL WAGES.

 

[JakeStarkey]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

 

[Correll]

The fact is that there are plenty of unskilled workers in America who are losing out on jobs to illegals because employers can skirt the laws by employing them. People gave good examples of this in this thread . . . those who mentioned hiring illegals to do their landscaping or housecleaning because it is "cheaper." Ta da!!! There's the proof in front of your eyes.

How do you justify denying labor the same right to migration as capital currently possesses?

I agree there are many urban jobs lost to domestic labor because immigrants work cheaper and harder. Farm labor is an entirely separate beast, imho.

Neither capital or labor has any "right" to cross borders.

Such a "right" would violate the Right of Self Determination.

https://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2004/wp0459.pdf (p.16)
D. Growth of Financial Flows Foreign direct investment (FDI) flows between Mexico and its partners strengthened after NAFTA. The agreement contained various provisions that improved the relative standing of investors from the partner countries in Mexico and expanded the sectors in which they could operate.

"These changes helped boost FDI flows to Mexico from US$12 billion over 1991–93 to roughly US$54 billion in the 2000–02 period and increased share of FDI flows in domestic gross fixed capital formation (investment) from 6 percent in 1993 to 11 percent in 2002, mainly on account of inflows from Mexico’s NAFTA partners (Figures 6a and 6b)."

Mexico is a democratic country.

Their democratically elected government signed NAFTA and thus agreed to the Capital flow across their border.

Thus their Right to Self Determination is NOT violated.

They willingly gave permission for this capital flow.

I have repeatedly explained this, and you keep ignoring this.

 

[Correll]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

She has posted links proving her claim.

 

[ChrisL]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

Sorry, but I looked over the link and there is nothing about illegal immigrants included there. Why don't you quote the pertinent sections about illegal immigration in the document? Thanks.

 

[ChrisL]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

She has posted links proving her claim.

OTOH, they can't prove that American citizens will not do these jobs or that illegal immigrants are needed commodity other than personal anecdotes which are most likely made up.

 

[Correll]

I dare you to cut and paste from the article the part where it describes what America would be like without immigrants.


It is not there. Just like I said.

Empty partisan blather.

Designed to fool only those who are willing dupes.

What an excuse......... Here's the cut and paste. I'm not fooling you......... Because you are already fooooolish as it is.


Like most of the founding generation, Cr?vecoeur believed the sheer size of the new nation meant for a prosperous future. But he was also celebrating an attitude of openness, a willingness to embrace new citizens from around the world into what he called the "melting pot" of American society.
The embrace of openness has survived, in spite of occasional outbreaks of anti-immigrant sentiment, for the intervening two and a half centuries. The United States remains an immigrant nation, in spirit as well as in fact. (A fact for which, as an immigrant from the Old Country, I am grateful). My wife is American, and my high schoolers have had U.S. passports since being born in London. Right now I’m applying for U.S. citizenship. I want America to be my home, not just my residence. My story is of course very different to most immigrants – but the point is, all of our stories are different. What unites us is our desire to be American.

But this spirit may be waning. Thanks only in part to Donald Trump, immigration is near the top of the political agenda - and not in a good way.

Trump has brilliantly exploited the imagery of The Wall to tap into the frustrations of white middle America. But America needs immigration. At the most banal level, this is a question of math. We need more young workers to fund the old age of the Baby Boomers. Overall, immigrants are good for the economy, as a recent summary of research from Brookings' Hamilton Project shows.

Of course, while immigration might be good for the economy as a whole, that does not mean it is good for everyone. Competition for wages and jobs will impact negatively on some existing residents, who may be more economically vulnerable in the first place. Policymakers keen to promote the benefits of immigration should also be attentive to its costs.

But the value of immigration cannot be reduced to an actuarial table or spreadsheet. Immigrants do not simply make America better off. They make America better. Immigrants provide a shot in the nation's arm.

Immigrants are now twice as likely to start a new business as native-born Americans. While rates of entrepreneurialism are declining among natives, they are rising among immigrants. Immigrant children typically show extraordinary upward mobility, in terms of income, occupation and education. Among children born in Los Angeles to poorly-educated Chinese immigrants, for example, an astonishing 70% omplete a four-year-college degree.
As the work of my Brookings colleague William Frey shows, immigrants are migrants within the U. S., too, moving on from traditional immigrant cities -- New York and Los Angeles -- to other towns and cities in search of a better future.

New Americans are true Americans. We need more of them. But Trump is tapping directly and dangerously into white fears of an America growing steadily browner. According to a 2011 Pew Research Center survey, more than four in ten white seniors say that a growing population of immigrants is a “change for the worse;” half of white boomers believe immigration is “a threat to traditional American customs and values.”

Immigration gets at a deep question of American identity in the 21st century. Just like people, societies age. They might also settle down, lose some dynamism. They might trade a little less openness for a little more security. In other words, they get a bit stuck in their ways. Immigrants generate dynamism and aspiration, but they are also unsettling and challenging.

Where this debate ends will therefore tell us a great deal about the trajectory of the nation. An America that closes its doors will be an America that has chosen to settle down rather than grow, allowing security to eclipse dynamism.

Disruption is not costless. But America has always weighed the benefits of dynamism and diversity more heavily. Immigration is an important way in which America hits the refresh button and renews herself. Without immigration, the nation would not only be worse off, but would cease, in some elemental sense, to be America at all.

So the article title claims to talk about what America would be like without immigrants.

Nothing in there tells that.

There are a lot unsupported assertions, such as "The United States remains an immigrant nation, in spirit as well as in fact."

or "New Americans are true Americans".


But there are no descriptions of what this immigrant-less America would look like.

Would there be a smaller population? Would we have never taken California from Mexico, or not bought Alaska from Russia?

Would Fish and CHips be our national dish?



That you could read an article claiming to tell what America would look like without immigrants, and not notice that the article tells NOTHING about what America would look like without immigrants,

demonstrates that you accept what your Authority Figures ie the Media tells you WITHOUT QUESTION.

Blind partisanship.

Scared? Better adopt.

NOthing in your post addressed anything in my post.

My point stands, the article was nothing but partisan blather, and that you thought it was impressive does nothing but remove the last vestiges of your credibility.

Cry me river....... I've known you as a racist and your hatred against all minorities. What that tells you about your credibility?

My point stands, the article was nothing but partisan blather, and that you thought it was impressive does nothing but remove the last vestiges of your credibility.


You want to disagree?

Post the description from the article on what America would look like without immigrants.

Hint: you can't because it isn't there.

So, now you dodge, and lie.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles. If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Actually, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a LIE that 11 million illegals are limited to fruit picking. They are found though out the economy. So, what I WANT is to see wages rise slowing and steadily from now on, for the foreseeable future. ALL WAGES.

One, no one told a lie "that 11 million" are only doing fruit picking; that is your red herring lie. You have failed to admit that agribusiness and food processing plants depend on them. Wages need to grow dramatically if immigrants are forced to leave.

And that is the silliness of all this discussion: they won't be leaving like you want them to do.

Trump is walking back his statements.

 

[JakeStarkey]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

Sorry, but I looked over the link and there is nothing about illegal immigrants included there. Why don't you quote the pertinent sections about illegal immigration in the document? Thanks.

Then it invalidates your conclusion.

 

[billyerock1991]

In a word, Y-E-S

Trump Isn’t Bluffing, He’ll Deport 11 Million People

"Legally, there’s nothing to it.

"Trump doesn’t need an act of Congress.

"He doesn’t even have to sign an executive order.

"All he’ll have to do to set this outrage in motion is pick up the phone and tell the head of Immigration and Customs Enforcement to do his or her job: enforce the law.

"Camps cost money. So do more agents. No problem.

"President Trump can shift his budget priorities in favor of ICE.

"He’s already said he would triple ICE’s enforcement division from 5,000 to 15,000 officers.

"The FBI would have to pitch in."

Sure, the optics of the biggest forced population movement since Stalin would present problems, and it isn't too likely countries of origin would be thrilled about receiving millions of bitter, unemployed new arrivals, but could Trump actually deliver on his promise?

What happens to his administration if he can't?

that would mean they would have to capture 734 illegals each that would meant it would take two years at what cost ... if they paid each person 50,000 dollars a year it would cost the government 1,500,000,000 thats just in salaries ... now they have to go through the court system, when they are incarcerated, each year whats that cost I remember reading 65,000 dollars a year thats 1,430,000,000,000 dollars talk about spenders is it worth it

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles.

If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Jake , the problem with your position is the sheer hypocrisy of it. Liberals like yourself are adamant about the minimum wage, yet defend a position which demands that employers hire employees who won't be paid the minimum wage in order to make any sense.

Those agriculture farms should be paying the min wage. PERIOD. Whether that be to citizens or non citizens. Obviously if they have to pay the min wage that would disappear the argument of allowing illegals to remain in this country. Quite the conundrum you've found yourself in.

 

[billyerock1991]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles. If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Actually, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a LIE that 11 million illegals are limited to fruit picking. They are found though out the economy. So, what I WANT is to see wages rise slowing and steadily from now on, for the foreseeable future. ALL WAGES.

One, no one told a lie "that 11 million" are only doing fruit picking; that is your red herring lie. You have failed to admit that agribusiness and food processing plants depend on them. Wages need to grow dramatically if immigrants are forced to leave.

And that is the silliness of all this discussion: they won't be leaving like you want them to do.

Trump is walking back his statements.

isn't that what he always does ... he gets them all works up in a frenzy they says he never said that

 

[ChrisL]

georgephillip: I don't believe enough US citizens will work in farm labor because of the long hours in often brutal heat or cold.

Correll: Labor moving across borders against peoples wishes is a violation of their Right to Self Determination.

You are both right, and that problem in the first sentence conflicts with Correll's statement.

US citizens already do this, considering the work force is majority US citizens.

That is your unsupported opinion.

Sorry, but I looked over the link and there is nothing about illegal immigrants included there. Why don't you quote the pertinent sections about illegal immigration in the document? Thanks.

Then it invalidates your conclusion.

Nope. As usual, you are wrong.

 

[ChrisL]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles.

If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Jake , the problem with your position is the sheer hypocrisy of it. Liberals like yourself are adamant about the minimum wage, yet defend a position which demands that employers hire employees who won't be paid the minimum wage in order to make any sense.

Those agriculture farms should be paying the min wage. PERIOD. Whether that be to citizens or non citizens. Obviously if they have to pay the min wage that would disappear the argument of allowing illegals to remain in this country. Quite the conundrum you've found yourself in.

Totally true. Their position is complete hypocrisy.

 

[Fair&Balanced]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles.

If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Jake , the problem with your position is the sheer hypocrisy of it. Liberals like yourself are adamant about the minimum wage, yet defend a position which demands that employers hire employees who won't be paid the minimum wage in order to make any sense.

Those agriculture farms should be paying the min wage. PERIOD. Whether that be to citizens or non citizens. Obviously if they have to pay the min wage that would disappear the argument of allowing illegals to remain in this country. Quite the conundrum you've found yourself in.

Totally true. Their position is complete hypocrisy.

99% of partisan positions , whether left or right, are full of hypocrisy and lies.

 

[ChrisL]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles. If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Actually, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a LIE that 11 million illegals are limited to fruit picking. They are found though out the economy. So, what I WANT is to see wages rise slowing and steadily from now on, for the foreseeable future. ALL WAGES.

One, no one told a lie "that 11 million" are only doing fruit picking; that is your red herring lie. You have failed to admit that agribusiness and food processing plants depend on them. Wages need to grow dramatically if immigrants are forced to leave.

And that is the silliness of all this discussion: they won't be leaving like you want them to do.

Trump is walking back his statements.

Why do you sport a Trump avatar and call yourself a conservative? You are a phony. Try being honest about your positions for a change.

 

[Correll]

Remember that correll and bripat are here for grins and chuckles. If the immigrants were forced to leave, the agricombines and food processing plants would have to increase their wages dramatically.

Actually, I have repeatedly pointed out that it is a LIE that 11 million illegals are limited to fruit picking. They are found though out the economy. So, what I WANT is to see wages rise slowing and steadily from now on, for the foreseeable future. ALL WAGES.

One, no one told a lie "that 11 million" are only doing fruit picking; that is your red herring lie. You have failed to admit that agribusiness and food processing plants depend on them. Wages need to grow dramatically if immigrants are forced to leave.

And that is the silliness of all this discussion: they won't be leaving like you want them to do.

Trump is walking back his statements.

1. It is quite common for libs to respond to anti-illegal talk with "you going to pick the fruit" or "dirty job no American will do". Those are lies. Illegals are found though out the economy. So, their removal will affect all the economy.

2. I have certainly never DENIED that agribusiness and food processing illegally employ large numbers of illegals. I here by "admit" it.

3. I have repeated stated that actual stoop labor picking fruit might be a job crappy enough that we can't find Americans will to do it. And thus a SMALL guest worker program might be considered.

4. And yes, I WANT wages to rise. Don't you?

5. Your assumption that Trump will not fulfill his campaign promises is nothing but your unsupported opinion.