Darwin vs DNA

[JakeStarkey]

Or the certainty of TIR et al similar to the similar certainty that lead to executed Quakers in 1644 and executed witches in 1692 in Boston and Salem.

I have no doubt the Bible is a powerful and important book, it's just incomplete. Those are the answers I'm interested in. The Bible has been a subject of interest to me all my adult life. I have read extensively, not only from the Book itself but a multitude of ancient texts and opinions from all walks of life, in several different translations etc. But I'm always interested in hearing more.
I have no 'position' to argue other than the whole story hasn't been told.

Candy, I guess it depends on the person doing the reading.
That isn't meant to be a criticism. I mean, when I read Day 1, I thought, day 1.
When Nachmanides read Day 1, he thought:
spacial time
infinite amount of dimensions
4 knowable by humans
there are rolled up ones
on and on and on.
That's all science. At least it is when Einstein says it and Hawking and the others discover it.
Did you get that from Genesis?

There is layer after layer and level upon level in the Bible.
A lot of what we may think is not complete, is actually there. We just haven't discovered that level yet.

And God knows that some people "can't handle the truth." There have been quantum physicists that have committed suicide because of what could possibly happen. There were things known to His prophets that He warned to keep to themselves. He doesn't want man's hearts to fail.

Incomplete is for several reasons. It produces faith, fosters education, and can be for mercy sake.
But for those that ask for wisdom, it's a promise from God, that he'll give it to you.
And we are being given the answers.
Science is proving the Bible.
Nachmanides was a Rabbi. But his brain was scientifically inclined.

And so He has. And I just keep asking questions.

What could be withheld that would be worse than the Vietnam War, Nixon, Johnson, the oil embargo, chinese girls mutilated for life, the Gulf War, Islamic women mutilated for life and murdered, millions slaughtered in the name of 'religion', the horror that has been the Catholic church from day one, including the Inquisition and the Auto de fe, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charlie Manson, the SDS, greedy banks that cause the collapse of a great nation, Jack the Ripper, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and clouds of ash that interupt air travel all over the world, global warming, the withdrawal of the icecaps and Nancy Grace?

 

[CandySlice]

Or the certainty of TIR et al similar to the similar certainty that lead to executed Quakers in 1644 and executed witches in 1692 in Boston and Salem.

Candy, I guess it depends on the person doing the reading.
That isn't meant to be a criticism. I mean, when I read Day 1, I thought, day 1.
When Nachmanides read Day 1, he thought:
spacial time
infinite amount of dimensions
4 knowable by humans
there are rolled up ones
on and on and on.
That's all science. At least it is when Einstein says it and Hawking and the others discover it.
Did you get that from Genesis?

There is layer after layer and level upon level in the Bible.
A lot of what we may think is not complete, is actually there. We just haven't discovered that level yet.

And God knows that some people "can't handle the truth." There have been quantum physicists that have committed suicide because of what could possibly happen. There were things known to His prophets that He warned to keep to themselves. He doesn't want man's hearts to fail.

Incomplete is for several reasons. It produces faith, fosters education, and can be for mercy sake.
But for those that ask for wisdom, it's a promise from God, that he'll give it to you.
And we are being given the answers.
Science is proving the Bible.
Nachmanides was a Rabbi. But his brain was scientifically inclined.

And so He has. And I just keep asking questions.

What could be withheld that would be worse than the Vietnam War, Nixon, Johnson, the oil embargo, chinese girls mutilated for life, the Gulf War, Islamic women mutilated for life and murdered, millions slaughtered in the name of 'religion', the horror that has been the Catholic church from day one, including the Inquisition and the Auto de fe, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charlie Manson, the SDS, greedy banks that cause the collapse of a great nation, Jack the Ripper, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and clouds of ash that interupt air travel all over the world, global warming, the withdrawal of the icecaps and Nancy Grace?

The list do go on and on. See, that 'don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain' stuff gives me pause.

 

[The Irish Ram]

I have no doubt the Bible is a powerful and important book, it's just incomplete. Those are the answers I'm interested in. The Bible has been a subject of interest to me all my adult life. I have read extensively, not only from the Book itself but a multitude of ancient texts and opinions from all walks of life, in several different translations etc. But I'm always interested in hearing more.
I have no 'position' to argue other than the whole story hasn't been told.

Candy, I guess it depends on the person doing the reading.
That isn't meant to be a criticism. I mean, when I read Day 1, I thought, day 1.
When Nachmanides read Day 1, he thought:
spacial time
infinite amount of dimensions
4 knowable by humans
there are rolled up ones
on and on and on.
That's all science. At least it is when Einstein says it and Hawking and the others discover it.
Did you get that from Genesis?

There is layer after layer and level upon level in the Bible.
A lot of what we may think is not complete, is actually there. We just haven't discovered that level yet.

And God knows that some people "can't handle the truth." There have been quantum physicists that have committed suicide because of what could possibly happen. There were things known to His prophets that He warned to keep to themselves. He doesn't want man's hearts to fail.

Incomplete is for several reasons. It produces faith, fosters education, and can be for mercy sake.
But for those that ask for wisdom, it's a promise from God, that he'll give it to you.
And we are being given the answers.
Science is proving the Bible.
Nachmanides was a Rabbi. But his brain was scientifically inclined.

And so He has. And I just keep asking questions.

What could be withheld that would be worse than the Vietnam War, Nixon, Johnson, the Atom bomb,the oil embargo, chinese girls mutilated for life, the Gulf War, Islamic women mutilated for life and murdered, millions slaughtered in the name of 'religion',the hydrogen bomb, the horror that has been the Catholic church from day one, including the Inquisition and the Auto de fe, sidewinder missiles, Ted Bundy, Barack Obama, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charlie Manson, the SDS, greedy banks that cause the collapse of a great nation, Jack the Ripper, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and clouds of ash that interupt air travel all over the world, global warming, the withdrawal of the icecaps and Nancy Grace?

All of those things at once............
We ain't seen nothin yet. Revelation is no picnic. There won't be many humans left.

 

[The Irish Ram]

See, that 'don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain' stuff gives me pause.

The answers have been there, long before we knew what questions to ask.
He's not hiding. He has given us everything we need to know. The degree in which we understand His answers to our questions, is directly related to the degree in which we study to show ourselves approved.
Since you have been studying, you've no doubt come across these Bible verses:
Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”

and as for what could be worse:
“For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“ (Matthew 24:21)

 

[Hollie]

It is rather easy to explain if you do this:
Isaiah 740-681 BC
Aristotle 384-322 BC
Eratosthenes 276-194 BC
Out of the 3 that believed the earth was round, which one came first?


Now to refute the erroneous attack on the validity of the Bible, here is the truth about the Bible being "added to" and "tampered with", and "re-scripted" as we went along.

....... there is no doubt that of all the ancient books, the Bible is in a class to itself, as far as vindication and validation of the text is concerned. There are more manuscripts and external proofs for the books of the Bible than any other book extant. No other book has been rightly subjected to such a rigorous and exacting test for authenticity and, yet, the Bible time and again has not only survived all the tests, but has triumphantly prevailed. Almost two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away" (Matt. 24: 35). Again, "Wherefore, Sirs, be of good cheer: for I believe God, that it shall be even as it was told me" (Acts 27: 25).

(B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort, The new Testament in the Original Greek, Introduction and Appendix, pg. 2-3).
The Texts of the Bible
^
Read about it first, then read it, then come and argue your position.

While the opinions expressed by B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort are only their opinions, the factual errors, mis-statements and omissions of the bible speak to something entirely different.

I wouldn’t necessarily see a spiritual work as a barrier to science. But it's true that those who already wish to restrain knowledge, for reasons of pride or willful ignorance, often grasp upon their holy books for an excuse to do precisely that.

The fault doesn't lie with the holy book, but with the reader.

The many centuries that have passed since the compilation of the bible is not so long that spiritual truths go out of date, but grasping upon these texts for detailed knowledge of the natural world is hopeless for anyone looking to expand the boundaries of scientific knowledge.

What I've seen consistently in the kind of article you linked to is a false claim of the bible illuminating science when it's actually the other way around. The interpretations are filled with apologetics for lack of scientific vocabulary in a spiritual work. Well, duh! No, I think these arguments do more harm than good by feeding the ignorance of those who are satisfied with their own lack of training outside religious studies.

They're ridiculously easy to debunk, and having debunked the "science" in a spiritual work, the "spiritual" truths get washed out like a baby with the bathwater. Every time I see a religionist arguing against something as clear as, well, evolution, for instance, it makes me lose respect for their religion.

Yes, yes, while great Hindu philosophers have done even more with mathematics, great Greek pantheistic philosophers more with medicine, great Buddhist (and Taoist!) philosophers more with chemistry ... and every last one of them has been superseded by entirely secular scholars as the boundaries of knowledge have been pushed back by specialized researchers.

The day of the pre-eminent religious/philosophical/scientific polymath has come and gone. I don't call it good or bad. I call it truth.

Why would we listen to the "opinions" of people who have devoted their lives to their research, which includes learning one of the most difficult languages there was, when we have your opinion?
Dazzle me with some Koine Greek........

Your comment actually self-dismantles. What, exactly, can be studied about genesis?

Within the Theistic environment, Genesis is not about to change into anything more specific. We know what it says, and if we are going to approach this in a way that humans approach the attainment of knowledge (i.e., support and falsify, test and verify), Genesis is not going to be fleshed out in more detail. There it sits, creationism in 2 short poetic chapters. There is no indication that we can ever know anything more about the most significant event in human history and all indications are that as more fossils are found, as scientific tools become more sophisticated and exacting, evolution, the natural world and humanities place in the natural world are going to be more and more supported and defined.

The second point is, if one is not going to discount any possibility, then one better be fully prepared to take that to its logical conclusion. Therefore, the J-C account is only one of several thousand creation accounts, and I suggest it's time to start looking for evidence of the Lodge in the Sky that is derived from the Iroquois mythology. But wait, first let's make sure the Chaos / Zeus paradigm is eliminated... ah, but then there's that Viking thing too... and what about the Aztecs...

Philosophically speaking, we cannot beg the question to support the contention, therefore, god cannot be assumed to exist as a means to support the contention of god, and the Bible cannot be used as a means to support the Bible. Given that, we decide to agree that we all exist in a reality and that reality has some constants. This is what I’ll call the penultimate level of realism, and that is the true level by which we all are forced to operate. It is here we offer our worldviews based upon our presuppositions, because we simply have no “ultimate” understanding of existence.

We are therefore reduced to the probability factor, which is argumentation not based upon solid proof but upon consistent behavior of the natural world. At this point, it's purely a choice between theist and materialist as to what worldview makes the greater amount of sense.

Thus, I have to ask what evidence can you share to demonstrate the force, effect, or manifestation of this “being" you describe as god? The first question becomes, when (or how) does one decide or conclude that an unknowable entity exists, or does one forever remain a Hamlet?

 

[JakeStarkey]

God is, science exists, evolution is fact, ID and creationism are philosophies, TIR is not a prophet or a scientist.

These are axioms for this discussion thread.

See, that 'don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain' stuff gives me pause.

The answers have been there, long before we knew what questions to ask.
He's not hiding. He has given us everything we need to know. The degree in which we understand His answers to our questions, is directly related to the degree in which we study to show ourselves approved.
Since you have been studying, you've no doubt come across these Bible verses:
Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”

and as for what could be worse:
“For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“ (Matthew 24:21)

 

[LOki]

See, that 'don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain' stuff gives me pause.

The answers have been there, long before we knew what questions to ask.
He's not hiding. He has given us everything we need to know. The degree in which we understand His answers to our questions, is directly related to the degree in which we study to show ourselves approved.
Since you have been studying, you've no doubt come across these Bible verses:
Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”

and as for what could be worse:
“For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“ (Matthew 24:21)

"He"? I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you referring to this "God" thing again? If so, why won't you explain it to me?

Now, I've been exposed to literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, and special-pleading accounts of some "God," but those obviously don't count. Right?

You seem to possess such unqualified certainty. So help me out here.

 

[ima]

God is, science exists, evolution is fact, ID and creationism are philosophies, TIR is not a prophet or a scientist.

These are axioms for this discussion thread.

See, that 'don't pay any attention to the man behind the curtain' stuff gives me pause.

The answers have been there, long before we knew what questions to ask.
He's not hiding. He has given us everything we need to know. The degree in which we understand His answers to our questions, is directly related to the degree in which we study to show ourselves approved.
Since you have been studying, you've no doubt come across these Bible verses:
Romans 1:20 tells us “For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.”

and as for what could be worse:
“For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.“ (Matthew 24:21)

Sorry, imaginary proof doesn't count.

 

[JakeStarkey]

ima, your opinion does not count with me at all.

You can't prove that God is imaginary, period.

So what you think is immaterial.

 

[ima]

ima, your opinion does not count with me at all.

You can't disprove that God is imaginary, period.

So what you think is immaterial.

God IS imaginary, sooooo..... I totally agree!

 

[JakeStarkey]

You cannot prove your opinion.

That's fine.

And it is immaterial to others.

 

[CandySlice]

Candy, I guess it depends on the person doing the reading.
That isn't meant to be a criticism. I mean, when I read Day 1, I thought, day 1.
When Nachmanides read Day 1, he thought:
spacial time
infinite amount of dimensions
4 knowable by humans
there are rolled up ones
on and on and on.
That's all science. At least it is when Einstein says it and Hawking and the others discover it.
Did you get that from Genesis?

There is layer after layer and level upon level in the Bible.
A lot of what we may think is not complete, is actually there. We just haven't discovered that level yet.

And God knows that some people "can't handle the truth." There have been quantum physicists that have committed suicide because of what could possibly happen. There were things known to His prophets that He warned to keep to themselves. He doesn't want man's hearts to fail.

Incomplete is for several reasons. It produces faith, fosters education, and can be for mercy sake.
But for those that ask for wisdom, it's a promise from God, that he'll give it to you.
And we are being given the answers.
Science is proving the Bible.
Nachmanides was a Rabbi. But his brain was scientifically inclined.

And so He has. And I just keep asking questions.

What could be withheld that would be worse than the Vietnam War, Nixon, Johnson, the Atom bomb,the oil embargo, chinese girls mutilated for life, the Gulf War, Islamic women mutilated for life and murdered, millions slaughtered in the name of 'religion',the hydrogen bomb, the horror that has been the Catholic church from day one, including the Inquisition and the Auto de fe, sidewinder missiles, Ted Bundy, Barack Obama, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charlie Manson, the SDS, greedy banks that cause the collapse of a great nation, Jack the Ripper, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and clouds of ash that interupt air travel all over the world, global warming, the withdrawal of the icecaps and Nancy Grace?

All of those things at once............
We ain't seen nothin yet. Revelation is no picnic. There won't be many humans left.

And yet there are those who think Revelation wasn't about the end of the world at all but the fall of the church in Rome that fed christians to the lions.

 

[ima]

You cannot prove your opinion.

That's fine.

And it is immaterial to others.

You must suffer from dyslexia or something like that. You said: You can't disprove that God is imaginary, period.

In other words, you think god is imaginary and I can't disprove it. I don't have to. I totally agree!

 

[JakeStarkey]

Thanks. You better read it again.

ima, your opinion does not count with me at all.

You can't disprove that God is imaginary, period.

So what you think is immaterial.

God IS imaginary, sooooo..... I totally agree!

 

[JakeStarkey]

You better read above again, hmmm.

You cannot prove your opinion, and that is all there is to it.

Believe it, if it gives you comfort. But your belief is immaterial to me.

 

[ima]

You better read above again, hmmm.

You cannot prove your opinion, and that is all there is to it.

Believe it, if it gives you comfort. But your belief is immaterial to me.

Whatever.

So if something doesn't exist and I can't prove that it doesn't exist, then it exists? Have I got that right?

Anyways, you never said why "God is".

 

[LOki]

ima, your opinion does not count with me at all.

You can't prove that God is imaginary, period.

So what you think is immaterial.

This looks to me like you're shifting the burden of proof.

And it reminds me, that among the literally hundreds of self-contradictory, question-begging, and special-pleading accounts of some "God" I've been exposed to, included are appeal-to-ignorance accounts as well.

OBVIOUSLY none of those accounts are rationally valid accounts of this "God" thing you and The Irish Ram are referencing. Right?

So, this "God" thing; I have no idea what you're talking about. Why won't you explain it to me? You all seem to possess such unqualified certainty. So help me out here.

Thanks.

 

[The Irish Ram]

And so He has. And I just keep asking questions.

What could be withheld that would be worse than the Vietnam War, Nixon, Johnson, the Atom bomb,the oil embargo, chinese girls mutilated for life, the Gulf War, Islamic women mutilated for life and murdered, millions slaughtered in the name of 'religion',the hydrogen bomb, the horror that has been the Catholic church from day one, including the Inquisition and the Auto de fe, sidewinder missiles, Ted Bundy, Barack Obama, Jeffrey Dahmer, Charlie Manson, the SDS, greedy banks that cause the collapse of a great nation, Jack the Ripper, earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and clouds of ash that interupt air travel all over the world, global warming, the withdrawal of the icecaps and Nancy Grace?

All of those things at once............
We ain't seen nothin yet. Revelation is no picnic. There won't be many humans left.

And yet there are those who think Revelation wasn't about the end of the world at all but the fall of the church in Rome that fed christians to the lions.

But we know better, by studying the Bible.
There have been many that have tried to figure the date of Christ's return, (which is the Reveal, that Revelation refers to). Since the Romans feeding Christians to the lions did not culminate in Christ's return, we know that THAT wasn't it, right? And when Christ returns He is going to chain Satan. If that's already happened, then Satan is on an awfully long leash don't you think?
Take those crazy Millerites, who's pastor had them sell everything they owned and sit on a rock at sunrise because he had figured it out........

Here's what they missed:
Matthew 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
Christ gave us a litany of thingS to look for. Not one or the other, but, when you see all these things.....
Sadly the Millerites didn't realize that earthquakes had not increased dramatically, or that the countries in Europe had not amalgamated, or that no temple had been rebuilt, or that there WAS NO ISRAEL at that time!

There is no "S" on the end of Revelation. The revelation is Christ returning. The rest is pure prophecy, < (to let us know how not to be caught unaware, or deceived.) There are over two thousand prophecies concerning the end times and Christ's return. There are about 500 left to be fulfilled before He shows up.

 

[CandySlice]

All of those things at once............
We ain't seen nothin yet. Revelation is no picnic. There won't be many humans left.

And yet there are those who think Revelation wasn't about the end of the world at all but the fall of the church in Rome that fed christians to the lions.

But we know better, by studying the Bible.
There have been many that have tried to figure the date of Christ's return, (which is the Reveal, that Revelation refers to). Since the Romans feeding Christians to the lions did not culminate in Christ's return, we know that THAT wasn't it, right? And when Christ returns He is going to chain Satan. If that's already happened, then Satan is on an awfully long leash don't you think?
Take those crazy Millerites, who's pastor had them sell everything they owned and sit on a rock at sunrise because he had figured it out........

Here's what they missed:
Matthew 24:33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
Christ gave us a litany of thingS to look for. Not one or the other, but, when you see all these things.....
Sadly the Millerites didn't realize that earthquakes had not increased dramatically, or that the countries in Europe had not amalgamated, or that no temple had been rebuilt, or that there WAS NO ISRAEL at that time!

There is no "S" on the end of Revelation. The revelation is Christ returning. The rest is pure prophecy, < (to let us know how not to be caught unaware, or deceived.) There are over two thousand prophecies concerning the end times and Christ's return. There are about 500 left to be fulfilled before He shows up.

And once again, you offer me only ONE reference source for your opinion and that is the Bible itself. You cannot prove a thing by referencing that thing. Yes I know there is plenty of literature written about the Revelation that is not in the Bible, but there has also been much written about the Revelation being what I suggest it is. And the people I'm referencing are not working on faith, they are using rationality. So I think that makes my supposition (and that's all it CAN be since neither of us has empirical proof either way) just as valid as any other.
I appreciate you got as far as the Bible, read it and quit asking and for you that is fine and I say good luck with that but although my faith is strong it isn't bullet proof so I'll keep on searching.

 

[CandySlice]

White is Professor of Classics and Christian Origins at the University of Texas at Austin, and acted as historical consultant for "Apocalypse!"


The Book of Revelation was written sometime around 96 CE in Asia Minor. The author was probably a Christian from Ephesus known as "John the Elder." According to the Book, this John was on the island of Patmos, not far from the coast of Asia Minor, "because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus" (Rev. 1.10). This has traditionally been taken to mean that he had been exiled there as a martyr for his Christian faith. Some scholars, however, have suggested that it might have been a regular stop on a preaching circuit. Next, the author says, "I was in the spirit on the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet" (Rev. 1.11), and this voice tells him to write what he is about to see. This begins the "revelatory" vision that is at the center of the book.

Ephesus was both the capital of the Roman province of Asia and one of the earliest centers of Christianity. The book next contains seven short letters of exhortation to the Christian churches in the seven leading cities of Asia Minor -- Ephesus (2.1-7, Smyrna (2.9-11), Pergamon (2.12-17) , Thyatira (2.18-29). Sardis (3.1-6), Philadelphia (3.7-13). and Laodicea (3.14-22). This region would become a key area for the expansion of Christianity into the Roman empire. But it was precisely this intersection that created the problem for the author, as it called for Christians to treat the Roman administration as agent of the devil. But recognizing this comes from understanding how to read this kind of apocalyptic literature.



Because of intricate and unusual symbolic language, the Book of Revelation is hard for modern people to read. They are not used to this kind of literature. Not so for people in the ancient world who would have been more accustomed to the complex nature of apocalyptic literature. The very fact that an apocalypse was a common type of literature meant that if followed certain conventions of style, and people knew more what to expect from it. Because there were many other examples of apocalyptic writing, these conventions would have seemed less strange and cryptic. Also, apocalyptic literature was almost always a kind of literature for "insiders," that is to say, it was written for people who already knew something of the situation and of the symbols that were used to portray it. So, for the original audience of the Revelation of John, all these strange scenes would have been immediately intelligible. What the modern reader or biblical scholar has to do is to try to read the text with "ancient eyes," by being informed about the way the literature worked and the situation out of which it came.

So let's look briefly at the layout of Revelation. The book breaks naturally into five major visions plus a prologue and an epilogue on how these came to be written down. This yields our basic outline of the work, as follows:


The Prologue (1.1-3)
John's "Cover Letter" (1.4-20) and The First Vision
The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia (2.1-3.22)
The Second Vision: In the Throne Room of Heaven (4.1-11.19)
The Seven Seals and the Seven Trumpets
[Third Vision] Three Great Signs In Heaven: The Cosmic War (12.1-16.21)
The Beasts, the war, seven plagues, seven bowls of wrath, and Battle of Armageddon
The Fourth Vision: The Judgment on Babylon [=Rome] (17.1-21.8)

Part I: The Allegory of the Great Whore - (17.1-18)
Part II: Babylon [Rome] is Fallen! (18.1-8)
Part III: Heaven is once again opened: the 1,000 years (19.11-21.8)
Part IV: A New Heaven and New Earth (21.1-8)
The Fifth Vision: The New Jerusalem (21.9-22.5)
The Epilogue: (22.6-21)


This is an interesting article. Here's the link to see the rest of it. Can't hurt to look, can it?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/revelation/white.html