Darwin vs DNA

[LOki]

Currently there is no such conclusive evidence (proof) that God does or does not exist.

If it's not really possible to establish "conclusive evidence (proof)" for anything, why make it the standard for being reasonable--for holding rational beliefs? Why are you diminishing the value that evidence has in validating a belief's consistence with an objective reality, such that "just believing" something is so, has equal value for the purpose?

I suspect you do this because you are uncomfortable with the fact that while there is indeed no evidence (let alone proof) that God does exist, there is evidence (not proof) that God does not exist. I suspect that you will employ any strategy (intellectually valid or not) to avoid admitting that believing God exists is not rational, and that believing God does not exist can be rational.

I can admit that I could be wrong--my convictions aren't faith, after all. But if I'm right, I'll ask you why you're doing that.

 

[CandySlice]

God is not perfect and imperfect at the same time. He does not change. We covered that.

A senseless mass of contradictory nonsense is indistinguishable from "nothingness").

describes you narrative, not your point. If you make up A and A is B then surely C will be D or E when you're done...??..

It is quite a dilemma, isn’t it? For god, who, according to the bible, hates knowledge so much he made it the one thing forbidden in Eden and thus commanded Adam and Eve -- "ye shall eat of all things but not of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge -- for on that day, ye shall die" (they didn't die, as the serpent pointed out, they lived; God lied, Satan told the truth-- how ironic)

If they didn't die, do you have an address or cell phone # for them? I'd like to talk to Eve.........

No, no dilemma as far as the source material, except in your mind.
Nowhere will you find God, in the Bible, hating knowledge. He supplies knowledge, and instructs us to pray for the wisdom to understand knowledge.
It is not the tree of knowledge as you mistakenly refer to it to prove your nonsensical theory. It is knowledge of good, and something new, EVIL. Which ended their reign in the 'Garden of Good, No Evil Allowed'. Their fault, not God's. Even so, He clothed them, and they went on to lead "productive" lives. And then they died, just like God said. If you are looking for the liar, it was the serpent when he convinced Eve that she would be promoted to God if she ate. There's your liar.

If you are going to look at the "source material" do so with integrity. Don't tell us the one thing God hates is knowledge.
Proverbs 2:10-11 for wisdom will come into your heart, and knowledge will be pleasant to your soul; discretion will watch over you, understanding will guard you..........
James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God,who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him.
Daniel 2:21 .....he gives wisdom to the wise and knowledge to those who have understanding;
Proverbs 1:5 Let the wise hear and increase in learning, and the one who understands obtain guidance,

Remember lead paint? Remember TV commercials that told our children not to eat it? Did we tell them that because we are evil and created lead paint to trick them and get them to disobey? Or did we warn them to keep them safe?

Well said, Ram.
The Jews debate the Torah all their lives, for the last 5000 years the discussion has gone on. I 'd say if there is one thing God doesn't want for us it is to become stale and quit searching. I believe it's not the destination, it's the journey God wishes us to go on.
Ohter wise I can't put anything together that makes any sense. I feel so sorry for those that don't have the ambition or the intellect to keep asking those wonderful questions and seeking that wonderful knowledge. What a joyless life that has to be.
Nothing I have found in my search has saddened me, only brought me joy.

 

[CandySlice]

Candy,

Agreed, just one of many places in the edited Bible where the story falls apart at the seams.

Was it you that mentioned the Dead Sea Scrolls? The ones that prove the Old Testament has not been edited? Isn't that one of those info things you search for because you have an open mind?

If it hadn't been edited where's the Book of Enoch? The Book of Jasher? The Book of Lamech? Not in the KJV, that's for sure. That's what you find in the Dead Sea scrolls, the stuff they left out. The church fathers (especially the Catholic church that has such a bad rep anyway) have been monkeying around with the entire text for centuries. There are over 900 scrolls so far and so much has been left out it's just shameful. A few more complete Bibles have been found in Ethiopia and a few other places around the world but WE were never meant to see them.

And on that subject alone, you oughta read some of that stuff. I mentioned earlier the Book of Enoch which is just downright scary. Fallen angels and that. Either he was crazy (and perhaps that's why it was left out__I'm not discounting anything) or there's a Whole lot more to the Bible than meets the (modern) eye.

The journey's the thing. Like that old commercial used to say, 'getting there is half the fun'.

God hates knowledge? I don't think so.

 

[LOki]

What do you base your belief on ?

Rejecting the existence of gods (including the more recently configured Abrahamic god), is not a belief but a conclusion.

Based on what ?

Valid logic applied to the evidence.

 

[LOki]

What do you base this view on ?

Which view are you referring to? (A) or (B)?

BTW, I can't help but notice your tacit validation of the final conclusion made here.

Based on what ? you guys sure are afraid to answer a simple question.

Where did you get "afraid to answer" from?

Right. You made it up.

You're just projecting you own fear of answering questions on others.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Rejecting the existence of gods (including the more recently configured Abrahamic god), is not a belief but a conclusion.

Based on what ?

Valid logic applied to the evidence.

Loki we can take on some of these issues from the bible you have a problem believing. Your cartoons are cute but they are not evidence because you choose not to believe in the bibles account of what happened. There is plenty of evidence of dinosaurs being seen by man and we can get to that later.

Let's focus on the flood there are some evidences that you need to know before prematurely dismissing.

The earth's crust is sedimentary strata 1 mile deep and how is sedimentary strata laid down ? The layers of strata are filled with fossils . Do you understand how fossils are formed ?

Here I will answer the questions for you to speed up the process. Sedimentary strata is laid down by water. Fossils are formed by rapid burial such as in the strata that is being laid down by the flooding waters.

This is exactly what you can expect if there were a global flood as the bible states.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Which view are you referring to? (A) or (B)?

BTW, I can't help but notice your tacit validation of the final conclusion made here.

Based on what ? you guys sure are afraid to answer a simple question.

Where did you get "afraid to answer" from?

Right. You made it up.

You're just projecting you own fear of answering questions on others.

Loki you are a victim as many others in this country mainly because of one man. That one man is John Dewey. He wrote the humanist manifesto. He is the one that introduced the progressive education system that dominates the public school system in this country. He was quoted saying " To solve thw Christian problem we have to do it via the public school system."

 

[Youwerecreated]

Here let's see how the atheist is working to destroy Christianity. Here is a quote that can't be denied that they are helping fufill John Dewey's dream.

"destroy origional sin,if Jesus was not the redeener who died for our sins,and this is what evolution means,then Christianity is nothing !

G. Richards Bozarth; The meaning of evolution,American Atheist,page 30 sept 20th,1979.

 

[Hollie]

Here let's see how the atheist is working to destroy Christianity. Here is a quote that can't be denied that they are helping fufill John Dewey's dream.

"destroy origional sin,if Jesus was not the redeener who died for our sins,and this is what evolution means,then Christianity is nothing !

G. Richards Bozarth; The meaning of evolution,American Atheist,page 30 sept 20th,1979.

"Nothing happens 'cept for the will of Allah".

 

[Not2BSubjugated]

Currently there is no such conclusive evidence (proof) that God does or does not exist.

If it's not really possible to establish "conclusive evidence (proof)" for anything, why make it the standard for being reasonable--for holding rational beliefs? Why are you diminishing the value that evidence has in validating a belief's consistence with an objective reality, such that "just believing" something is so, has equal value for the purpose?

I suspect you do this because you are uncomfortable with the fact that while there is indeed no evidence (let alone proof) that God does exist, there is evidence (not proof) that God does not exist. I suspect that you will employ any strategy (intellectually valid or not) to avoid admitting that believing God exists is not rational, and that believing God does not exist can be rational.

I can admit that I could be wrong--my convictions aren't faith, after all. But if I'm right, I'll ask you why you're doing that.

Interesting little psychological slant you've put on this discussion. Is it at all possible for you to have an argument without assigning stupidity, insecurity, or alterior motives to those who disagree?

I've not once tried to make a value comparison between rational beliefs and blind faith. . . as a creature of logic, of -course- I have a higher level of respect for a belief based on logic and observation.

The only, I repeat, the -ONLY- argument that we're having here is whether or not even a rational belief is, on some level, an act of faith. Socrates 101. The only thing you can truly know is that you exist and that you are a thinking being. Unless you've found the source code, this is absolutely true.

 

[LOki]

Based on what ?

Valid logic applied to the evidence.

Loki we can take on some of these issues from the bible you have a problem believing. Your cartoons are cute but they are not evidence because you choose not to believe in the bibles account of what happened. There is plenty of evidence of dinosaurs being seen by man and we can get to that later.

Let's focus on the flood there are some evidences that you need to know before prematurely dismissing.

The earth's crust is sedimentary strata 1 mile deep and how is sedimentary strata laid down ? The layers of strata are filled with fossils . Do you understand how fossils are formed ?

Here I will answer the questions for you to speed up the process. Sedimentary strata is laid down by water. Fossils are formed by rapid burial such as in the strata that is being laid down by the flooding waters.

This is exactly what you can expect if there were a global flood as the bible states.

You fail to mention that sedimentation and fossil formations are components of geology as understood by non-creationist geologists and evolution scientists. You also fail to mention that the "nature" ofthe strata and fossil formations are consistent with the expectations of non-creationist geology and evolution science; whereas they are inconsistent with the expected conditions after a global flood as the bible states.

A catastrophic global event, such as the global flood that the bible asserts, would result in a rather uniform, and rather homogeneous sedimentation world-wide. The fosillized remains of regional organisms--especially plants--would NOT be stratified as expected by actual geologists and evolution scientists, but rather all mixed together as your superstitious scenario so boldly asserts their contemporary coexistence. The retarded rationalizations creationists offer for why this is--why, for instance, there are no maple trees in the bottom layer--are a laugh riot. A veritable "hoot!"

And I cannot help but notice that you continue to validate the final conclusion made here.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Have some more for you to think about.

A college science book, Life;The science of Biology Sinauer Associates 6th edition 2001 page 13 say's " They say not all forms of inquiry are scientific. That creationism begins with assertions that the earth is only 6,000 years old and everything was created. Then the very next page they say Evolution Science begins with assertions that the earth is only a few billion years old and that all organisms Evolved.

Neither case is scientific they are philosophies. So you can see the double standard and how they undermine religious beliefs.

 

[LOki]

Based on what ? you guys sure are afraid to answer a simple question.

Where did you get "afraid to answer" from?

Right. You made it up.

You're just projecting you own fear of answering questions on others.

Loki you are a victim as many others in this country mainly because of one man. That one man is John Dewey. He wrote the humanist manifesto. He is the one that introduced the progressive education system that dominates the public school system in this country. He was quoted saying " To solve thw Christian problem we have to do it via the public school system."

I'll just take this as your continued validation of the final conclusion made here.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Here let's see how the atheist is working to destroy Christianity. Here is a quote that can't be denied that they are helping fufill John Dewey's dream.

"destroy origional sin,if Jesus was not the redeener who died for our sins,and this is what evolution means,then Christianity is nothing !

G. Richards Bozarth; The meaning of evolution,American Atheist,page 30 sept 20th,1979.

"Nothing happens 'cept for the will of Allah".

Hollie,i am quoting your messiah not The God of the muslims.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Valid logic applied to the evidence.

Loki we can take on some of these issues from the bible you have a problem believing. Your cartoons are cute but they are not evidence because you choose not to believe in the bibles account of what happened. There is plenty of evidence of dinosaurs being seen by man and we can get to that later.

Let's focus on the flood there are some evidences that you need to know before prematurely dismissing.

The earth's crust is sedimentary strata 1 mile deep and how is sedimentary strata laid down ? The layers of strata are filled with fossils . Do you understand how fossils are formed ?

Here I will answer the questions for you to speed up the process. Sedimentary strata is laid down by water. Fossils are formed by rapid burial such as in the strata that is being laid down by the flooding waters.

This is exactly what you can expect if there were a global flood as the bible states.

You fail to mention that sedimentation and fossil formations are components of geology as understood by non-creationist geologists and evolution scientists. You also fail to mention that the "nature" ofthe strata and fossil formations are consistent with the expectations of non-creationist geology and evolution science; whereas they are inconsistent with the expected conditions after a global flood as the bible states.

A catastrophic global event, such as the global flood that the bible asserts, would result in a rather uniform, and rather homogeneous sedimentation world-wide. The fosillized remains of regional organisms--especially plants--would NOT be stratified as expected by actual geologists and evolution scientists, but rather all mixed together as your superstitious scenario so boldly asserts their contemporary coexistence. The retarded rationalizations creationists offer for why this is--why, for instance, there are no maple trees in the bottom layer--are a laugh riot. A veritable "hoot!"

And I cannot help but notice that you continue to validate the final conclusion made here.

You are failing to mention creationist hold degrees in the very fields you mentioned. You are also failing to mention bigger heavier creatures would have been found in lower layers of sedimentary strata. You also fail in mentioning pockets of fossils found out of sequence. You also fail in mentionig that fossils that were from very large different periods of time were found in the same layers of strata.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Where did you get "afraid to answer" from?

Right. You made it up.

You're just projecting you own fear of answering questions on others.

Loki you are a victim as many others in this country mainly because of one man. That one man is John Dewey. He wrote the humanist manifesto. He is the one that introduced the progressive education system that dominates the public school system in this country. He was quoted saying " To solve thw Christian problem we have to do it via the public school system."

I'll just take this as your continued validation of the final conclusion made here.

You can take it anyway you like but you are attempting to avoid the agenda set by your messiah.

 

[sakinago]

Since I don't have enough faith to be an evolutionist, would those of you who believe in evolution explain how a random bang created an extremely complex DNA language with 3 billion genetic letters that actually store information in the form of a four-character digital code?

Ram, I believe in a Diety, and that the Diety created the universe and consequently life. It is indeed very difficult to argue against evoloution, especially from the genetics standpoint. I do not believe in strict evolution, I do however agree with the theory of graduated equilibrium, which is evolution with a twist.

I am in no way that saying the bible is not true. If you want to make the argument for a Diety, best way to go about it is the concept in physics of "fine tuning". What fine tuning means is that the universe, and the laws of physics are too good to be true. If any one of the laws of physics was slightly changed, by fractions of a decimal, the universe as we know it would not exist. It would be a big cluster-fuck of incoherent energy. The universe seems to be tuned to give us the world we have today. Theres no reason why the laws of physics are the way they are, other than we either got lucky, or it was designed that way. This is what Einstien meant when he said "God does not play dice with the universe."

 

[Youwerecreated]

Loki I will bring something else to your attention.

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form and empty. And darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved on the face of the waters.

Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together to one place, and let the dry land appear; and it was so.
Gen 1:10 And God called the dry land, Earth. And He called the gathering together of the waters, Seas. And God saw that it was good.

This is the evidence of plate tectonics from the bible, the whole planet was under water. There were no living organisms at this time so there should be no fossils found in those layers of strata. The fossils were found in layers of strata that were formed in the global flood. These fossils are found world wide and in many cases where there was no water for a long time.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Since I don't have enough faith to be an evolutionist, would those of you who believe in evolution explain how a random bang created an extremely complex DNA language with 3 billion genetic letters that actually store information in the form of a four-character digital code?

Ram, I believe in a Diety, and that the Diety created the universe and consequently life. It is indeed very difficult to argue against evoloution, especially from the genetics standpoint. I do not believe in strict evolution, I do however agree with the theory of graduated equilibrium, which is evolution with a twist.

I am in no way that saying the bible is not true. If you want to make the argument for a Diety, best way to go about it is the concept in physics of "fine tuning". What fine tuning means is that the universe, and the laws of physics are too good to be true. If any one of the laws of physics was slightly changed, by fractions of a decimal, the universe as we know it would not exist. It would be a big cluster-fuck of incoherent energy. The universe seems to be tuned to give us the world we have today. Theres no reason why the laws of physics are the way they are, other than we either got lucky, or it was designed that way. This is what Einstien meant when he said "God does not play dice with the universe."

Disagree it just shows the creator used the very same substances to create the big difference is the genetic information.

Just like famous painters used the same brushes, canvass,and paint but all the famous paintings were a product of the same painter even though they were different.

 

[Hollie]

Since I don't have enough faith to be an evolutionist, would those of you who believe in evolution explain how a random bang created an extremely complex DNA language with 3 billion genetic letters that actually store information in the form of a four-character digital code?

Ram, I believe in a Diety, and that the Diety created the universe and consequently life. It is indeed very difficult to argue against evoloution, especially from the genetics standpoint. I do not believe in strict evolution, I do however agree with the theory of graduated equilibrium, which is evolution with a twist.

I am in no way that saying the bible is not true. If you want to make the argument for a Diety, best way to go about it is the concept in physics of "fine tuning". What fine tuning means is that the universe, and the laws of physics are too good to be true. If any one of the laws of physics was slightly changed, by fractions of a decimal, the universe as we know it would not exist. It would be a big cluster-fuck of incoherent energy. The universe seems to be tuned to give us the world we have today. Theres no reason why the laws of physics are the way they are, other than we either got lucky, or it was designed that way. This is what Einstien meant when he said "God does not play dice with the universe."

Disagree it just shows the creator used the very same substances to create the big difference is the genetic information.

Just like famous painters used the same brushes, canvass,and paint but all the famous paintings were a product of the same painter even though they were different.

If you substitute "the Easter Bunny" in place of "creator", the above makes just as much sense.