Democratic-Republican Party and a Man Named Beckely

[EdwardBaiamonte]

. But make no mistake about it Madison was for a representative democratic system in the new republic

stupid liberal trying to change subject by stating something with which all agree
and pretending its new conclusion!!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

, but Jefferson, being libertarian (and Madison, too), was in no way democratic. .

Well don't forget, at the time democratic meant close to anarchist or pro french or pro direct democracy, the opposite of what is means today. Madision is not helpful. He started out as a Federalist and slowly came over to the Jefferson side. He was moderate throughout while still appreciating the threat to the revolution posed by Hamilton Adams and Washington.

As I just told Dante, the "historians" have left something out of the translation. If Democrat is no longer the appropriate term to apply to Jefferson, then continued use of it is nefarious.

Most every historian I know of refers to Jacksonian Democrats, not Jeffersonian Democrats (referring to a Democratic political party).

People often get confused over the terms as do people today calling Conservatives -- Republicans and calling Liberals -- Democrats

gee why try to switch subject from Beckly and Democratic Republicans in 18th Century? Didn't get far with that liberal BS did you??

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I would challenge you, Dante, my friend, to find some document from Jefferson (or Madison or some other Republican in those days) in which he calls himself a Democrat or Democratic-Republican.

Something from before the Progressive Era. At least before the Calvin Coolidge administration.

You have again used "R" for republican as in a party.

Washington denounced the Democratic societies and blamed them for unrest in the nation. Unrest like the Whiskey Rebellion

Dante has stated on numerous occasion that parties as we understand them did NOT exist during the years of Hamilton/Adams/Jefferson/Madison. The idea that they were truly the 'Democratic Party" "Republican Party" "Federalist Party" or any other organized political party is not factual in that sense. Followers of Jefferson as he stepped into the faction started by people like Madison and Beckely, started calling themselves democratic-republicans and later republicans. There is documentation on this.

We years later have to refer to them by something, so we use names to describe the factions and parties (not organized political parties as such) they belonged to and formed. These groupings formed the political parties of later years. We lazily use terms like First Party system, Second Party system...

Whether Jefferson or Madison referred to themselves as either a Democrat or Democratic-Republican was not the argument Dante made, but Dante says people who called themselves republicans have indeed left behind documentation where they refer to themselves as democratic-republicans.

Beard did NOT make up the phrase/label

Still nothing from Jefferson or Madison. Yet you may be right. I don't know.

But to call Jefferson a Democrat in any sense is misleading and unfair. Jefferson was an anti-Federalist on the right edge of the Whig spectrum next to Patrick Henry.

The violent French Revolution and it's excesses: Jefferson embraced it all with abandon, only to later in life walk it back. Jefferson embraced democracy as well as the principles of republicanism. Jefferson was always pro the Union, while being suspect of federalism

"We are all republicans: we are all federalists" -- notice what is NOT mentioned? democrats. there was NO battle between republicans and democrats -- and federalists were not against the USA being a republic

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Ed, if you learn to control yourself, you just might get a few replies on Dante's next appearance

ok? think about it

 

[regent]

Wonder who wrote all the plays and sonnets attributed to Shakespeare? Perhaps the name will come to me in a vision and I'll be famous. Wait, I have a vision, was it DeVere or something like that?

 

[toxicmedia]

There is always a measure of projection in our posts.

If by meaning to offend me, being "exposed" as a dime store historian would work.....perhaps it is your worst nightmare.

Which can be simplified by the childish phrase, "I know you are but what am I"

See? Dante apologized if you took being exposed as an offense. Not everyone is as easily offended as seem to be. Though many here are.

What is it with your childish avatar and now childish sayings? Do you teach grade school?

Wow, I was expecting a bow, and a wave of your fancy French hat with a feather in it.

So poo poo on you!

PS, what is childish about Omar Bradley?

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

"We are all republicans: we are all federalists" -- notice what is NOT mentioned? democrats.

too stupid thats because the major parties at the time were Federalists and Republicans

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

there was NO battle between republicans and democrats -- and federalists were not against the USA being a republic

too stupid as always, there was no battle against democrats because there were no democrats you idiot, but there were Federalists who were big govt liberals like modern liberal democrats.

The battle between freedom and govt started with Aristotle and Plato and took place at the American founding firstly between England the the Colonies, then between Federalists and Anti Federalists, then between Federalists and Republicans, and now between Republicans and Democrats.

Do you understand!

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Ed, if you learn to control yourself, you just might get a few replies on Dante's next appearance

ok? think about it

the moron liberal is going to present his evidence that Beckly founded the Republican party and that his op was not a lie???

 

[Picaro]

The French Revolution wasn't Jefferson's main influence. He embraced aspects of it whenever it was politically expedient to do so, and then turn around and adopt some other meme for the same reasons. He was a politician, after all, first and foremost, and guided by existential necessity, not grand abstract sophistry; most of them were. They weren't ideologues; those got tossed under the bus the second the British ceded the colonies to the 'Revolutionaries' and they ceased to be useful to those who promoted the war, especially Paine, and Otis even got deported.

Jefferson's primary influence came from the writings of Viscount Bolingbroke and others in The Craftsman, an early 18th Century pamphlet, i.e. 'Bolingbrokism'. Jefferson's vision was a rural 'manorial paradise' ruled by country aristocrats supported by a class of sturdy Yeoman farmers, with no city rabble allowed to vote or have a say in government and leadership. This was why Jefferson was so intent on relocating the national capital out of New York City and in the South. See Forrest McDonald's The Presidency of Thomas Jefferson for a great synopsis of Jefferson the writer and politician versus Jefferson the President.

And no, Jefferson was no populist libertarian who supported unrestricted suffrage and 'democracy', he was a republican elitist.

The American Revolution was started, fought, and over before the French Revolution even began. It's like nobody ever looks at timelines or anything else.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

The French Revolution wasn't Jefferson's main influence.

This is very true. Nobody said it was, at least nobody with half a brain. Jefferson was a genius who studied all of world history and so that became his main influence. His main conclusion was that govt had been the source of evil in human history. Thus he said:


13)That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
13)"The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

-14)The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

-15)The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

“I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”
― James Madison



" 16)the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-16)governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


-17)A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- 18)this is the sum of good government.

-19)Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-20)History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-21)I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-22)I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-23)My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.


Welcome to your first lesson in American History!!! Isn't learning fun???

 

[Picaro]

A link on The Craftsman, for those who might be interested iin what it was:

The Craftsman (1726-52) and Gray's-Inn Journal (1753-54)--Historical Outline

Also of interest to some might be this attempt at constructing a 'diary' of the Constitutional Convention, which is self-explanatory as to its weaknesses and strengths and how the author compiled it, free to download in various formats:

The Records of the Federal Convention of 1787, vol. 1 - Online Library of Liberty

 

[Picaro]

The French Revolution wasn't Jefferson's main influence.

This is very true. Nobody said it was, at least nobody with half a brain. Jefferson was a genius who studied all of world history and so that became his main influence. His main conclusion was that govt had been the source of evil in human history. Thus he said:


13)That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves.
13)"The path we have to pursue[when Jefferson was President ] is so quiet that we have nothing scarcely to propose to our Legislature."

-14)The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not.

-15)The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.

“I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations.”
― James Madison



" 16)the natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to grain ground; that the greater the government the stronger the exploiter and the weaker the producer; that , therefore, the hope of liberty depends upon local self-16)governance and the vigilance of the producer class."


-17)A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor (read-taxes) and bread it has earned -- 18)this is the sum of good government.

-19)Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny.

-20)History, in general, only informs us of what bad government is.

-21)I own that I am not a friend to a very energetic government. It is always oppressive.

-22)I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

-23)My reading of history convinces me that bad government results from too much government.


Welcome to your first lesson in American History!!! Isn't learning fun???

A collection of one liner slogans, and you think that means something?

You're an idiot. Quit tripping my alert flags until after your nurse brings you your afternoon meds.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

A collection of one liner slogans, and you think that means something?
.

so you feel Jefferson was lying and he actually thought govt was wonderful??

 

[konradv]

Why did historians for so long credit Jefferson for the works and deeds of Beckely?

if they did this show evidence or admit to being insane...

you've been dismissed from class...make sure you're on time for the next one

Give him a break. Someone has to speak for the insane.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

There is always a measure of projection in our posts.

If by meaning to offend me, being "exposed" as a dime store historian would work.....perhaps it is your worst nightmare.

Which can be simplified by the childish phrase, "I know you are but what am I"

See? Dante apologized if you took being exposed as an offense. Not everyone is as easily offended as seem to be. Though many here are.

What is it with your childish avatar and now childish sayings? Do you teach grade school?

Wow, I was expecting a bow, and a wave of your fancy French hat with a feather in it.

So poo poo on you!

PS, what is childish about Omar Bradley?

my apologies, I had more than one tab open and most likely the posts blended,

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

"We are all republicans: we are all federalists" -- notice what is NOT mentioned? democrats.

too stupid thats because the major parties at the time were Federalists and Republicans

Jefferson was speaking to ideologies, not political parties as we know them.

Oh well, you blew your last chance at being taken seriously

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

The French Revolution wasn't Jefferson's main influence. He embraced aspects of it whenever it was politically expedient to do so, and then turn around and adopt some other meme for the same reasons. He was a politician, after all, first and foremost, and guided by existential necessity, not grand abstract sophistry; most of them were. They weren't ideologues; those got tossed under the bus the second the British ceded the colonies to the 'Revolutionaries' and they ceased to be useful to those who promoted the war, especially Paine, and Otis even got deported.

Jefferson's primary influence came from the writings of Viscount Bolingbroke and others in The Craftsman, an early 18th Century pamphlet, i.e. 'Bolingbrokism'. Jefferson's vision was a rural 'manorial paradise' ruled by country aristocrats supported by a class of sturdy Yeoman farmers, with no city rabble allowed to vote or have a say in government and leadership. This was why Jefferson was so intent on relocating the national capital out of New York City and in the South. See Forrest McDonald's The Presidency of Thomas Jefferson for a great synopsis of Jefferson the writer and politician versus Jefferson the President.

And no, Jefferson was no populist libertarian who supported unrestricted suffrage and 'democracy', he was a republican elitist.

The American Revolution was started, fought, and over before the French Revolution even began. It's like nobody ever looks at timelines or anything else.

While there appears to be little evidence Jefferson engaged in sophistry much, he most definitely was more of an ideologue lost in a world of abstractions...

and his nutty Agrarian Utopian dreams were based on more myth and abstraction than historical fact or truths.

Jefferson was in France when the battles over the US Constitution were fought. He was mostly out of the loop with little influence. He did however come back with his Francophile lust for imbecilities and democracy in a republic gone wild

Jefferson changed his tune as he aged and yes, he was influenced by Viscount Bolingbroke and others in The Craftsman, but not at the expense of the influence of still others. The Craftsman was no bible for Jefferson

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Jefferson was speaking to ideologies, not political parties as we know them.

he was speaking to both but so what????????? The point is he was an ardent small govt conservative Republican who had just crushed liberalism in America and called it the Second American Revolution. The first Revolution was the military one and Jefferson's Second Revolution second was about the ideology of the Revolution.

Do you understand???????

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Oh well, you blew your last chance at being taken seriously

says the absolute idiot who cant defend Democratic Republican or Berkley even when they are the subject of his own thread.