DeVos to make getting away with campus rape easy again

[JoeB131]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

 

[JoeB131]

Biff is their student too, and whatever obligation they have to protect another student who claims that he raped her, they have that same level of obligation to protect Biff from being punished for being falsely accused of a criminal act.

Well, everything in life is a balancing act, isn't it? You weigh the possibility that Biff is a rapist who will do it again, vs. the slim possibility he didn't do it. And then the lawyers have a talk with you and explain what happens if Biff does do it again and the next girl sues.

 

[JoeB131]

No, I shouldn't. Only a dumbfuck like you thinks that the one time you are guaranteed not to be thinking rationally is when you should be making a decision about this.

Your "solution" doesn't get around the problem of people who are falsely accused from being punished. When you come up with an actual solution, then perhaps some of might give a fuck what you have to say. Otherwise, it's just noise.

Actually, we do have a solution. The university looks into it, and decides they can't afford to keep Biff on campus. That's probably what they are going to keep doing no matter what Betsy declares while she's waiting for Trump's impeachment.

 

[JoeB131]

Why don't some of the left wingers check out the Duke University case a few years ago for one instance. Good piece here as well.

They've already forgotten about that. They forget about their failures 5 minutes after they have been exposed.

Okay, here's the problem with that argument, boys. You guys are arguing the University shouldn't make decisions unless law enforcement does. Except in the Duke case, law enforcement DID make arrests and DID start a prosecution.

And before you all get weepy about the Duke Lacross team. They did hire strippers and they were abusive to them, calling them the N-word. Another member of the team sent out an email talking about killing the strippers and skinning them.

Finally, nobody was expelled by the university. The LaCrosse coach was fired (as he should have been) and the team suspended (again, as they should have been.)

 

[OldLady]

Do you know how many acts of rape are not prosecuted? It's a lot more than you probably realize. Do you think it's ALRIGHT for young men to commit the occasional rape now and then (after all, boys will be boys, and the girls probably liked it)?

No, so lets go around throwing random men in prison because they can't prosecute all the rapists.

You are falsely accusing me of that stance. If you're going to champion "justice," you could at least be fair yourself.

You were whining because some rapes aren't prosecuted. Apparently you believe what happened in the cases being discussed is a solution to that issue. If not, then what is your solution?

Maybe those policies meant to ensure that accusations of rape are actually taken seriously on campus went too far? Maybe they need to be modified? I think throwing them away entirely could be unfair to the victims. Why can't the policies protect the rights of BOTH?

I agree, but I also think it is too unbalanced at the moment. The accused seem to have very few rights and there is a very low bar for evidence. No one should have their lives destroyed either by rape or by a false accusation. I think something needs to be done to adjust that balance.

I agree. No one seems to be able to hear that, though.

 

[hadit]

From your own source, "Survivors, victims of a lack of due process, and campus administrators have all told me that the current approach does a disservice to everyone involved."

You weren't supposed to notice that.


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[Meathead]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

What if Betsy lied. There is ample proof Betsys do lie.

That is no standard of justice. It's just fucking stoopid.

 

[JoeB131]

Here's the underlying problem. The standard for Criminal Conviction is "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". The practical effect is "How good is your lawyer"? Poor people get railroaded into prison all the time while affluent people either get off or get less than they deserve.

Universities don't operate under that standard and they can't. They have to balance the privilege (not right) of one student to attend their university vs. the safety of every female on that campus. Unfortunately, any calculation using that standard is always going to work against the accused.

 

[hadit]

Maybe we should make it a little more difficult for emotionally immature students to get each other drunk and naked.


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[OldLady]

What if, prior to instituting new policies, the actual facts were established here. Review the numbers at all colleges affected by the policies.
- Number of rape accusations
- Number of investigations conducted solely by campus
- Number of investigations that included concurrent involvement by the police
- Results of all investigations and the outcomes compared when both PD and campus were involved

I would like to know what a campus "investigation" involves. What is the "hearing" like? Who is involved in the hearing and who makes the decision? How is the accused represented? The victim? Do they have lawyers or campus appointed advocates?

Probably the best way to solve this problem is to cut down on the incidents of campus rape by changing the culture, just as Joe B suggests. Violent predator rapists will be prosecuted by the police as a matter of course. It is the other "forcing himself" situations that campuses are having to deal with, and they are very difficult, indeed.

 

[tinydancer]

What if, prior to instituting new policies, the actual facts were established here. Review the numbers at all colleges affected by the policies.
- Number of rape accusations
- Number of investigations conducted solely by campus
- Number of investigations that included concurrent involvement by the police
- Results of all investigations and the outcomes compared when both PD and campus were involved

I would like to know what a campus "investigation" involves. What is the "hearing" like? Who is involved in the hearing and who makes the decision? How is the accused represented? The victim? Do they have lawyers or campus appointed advocates?

Probably the best way to solve this problem is to cut down on the incidents of campus rape by changing the culture, just as Joe B suggests. Violent predator rapists will be prosecuted by the police as a matter of course. It is the other "forcing himself" situations that campuses are having to deal with, and they are very difficult, indeed.

There should be no hearing whatsoever. Rape is a crime. Take it to the police. The panels are kangaroo courts where the defendant is not afforded due process. It's insane. But then it was an Obama policy after all.

Here's where a federal Judge intervened and blocked a university from finding a student guilty of sexual assault. This is about as whacked out as it gets.

"In late August, U.S. District Judge Michael Barrett blocked Miami University from suspending a student the school had found guilty of sexual assault. The student claimed that his due-process rights had been violated by Miami University’s fact-finding process.

This process had featured a proceeding in which all the witnesses corroborating the accuser’s claims had refused to appear—and at its conclusion the chair of Miami’s disciplinary panel simply accepted their unverified statements as “true.”

When the case reached federal court, university lawyers argued that cross-examination of the absent witnesses was irrelevant because the accused student was allowed to say that he disagreed with their claims.

The university, Barrett responded, misunderstood the importance of cross-examination for assessing witness credibility. Miami’s “claim that no amount of cross-examination could have changed the minds of the hearing panel members,” the judge concluded, “arguably undercuts the fairness of the hearing.”

The “arguably” was a nice touch. Barrett’s decision marked the 59th judicial setback for a college or university since 2013 in a due-process lawsuit brought by a student accused of sexual assault. (In four additional cases, the school settled a lawsuit before any judicial decision occurred.) This body of law serves as a towering rebuke to the Obama administration’s reinterpretation of Title IX, the 1972 law barring sex discrimination in schools that receive federal funding."

Read more at: Here's What Defenders of Campus Kangaroo Courts Won't Tell You

 

[tinydancer]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

How whacked out are you? If the police find that there is not enough evidence of a crime, you do not get to punish someone in a kangaroo court.

 

[Meathead]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

How whacked out are you? If the police find that there is not enough evidence of a crime, you do not get to punish someone in a kangaroo court.

Joey is pretty whacked out alright, as opposed to old lady who's just a priggish dingbat.

 

[tinydancer]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

How whacked out are you? If the police find that there is not enough evidence of a crime, you do not get to punish someone in a kangaroo court.

Joey is pretty whacked out alright, as opposed to old lady who's just a priggish dingbat.

I just find it unbelievable that anyone would or could support Universities actually prosecuting students. It's crazy.

 

[bripat9643]

No, so lets go around throwing random men in prison because they can't prosecute all the rapists.

You are falsely accusing me of that stance. If you're going to champion "justice," you could at least be fair yourself.

You were whining because some rapes aren't prosecuted. Apparently you believe what happened in the cases being discussed is a solution to that issue. If not, then what is your solution?

Maybe those policies meant to ensure that accusations of rape are actually taken seriously on campus went too far? Maybe they need to be modified? I think throwing them away entirely could be unfair to the victims. Why can't the policies protect the rights of BOTH?

I agree, but I also think it is too unbalanced at the moment. The accused seem to have very few rights and there is a very low bar for evidence. No one should have their lives destroyed either by rape or by a false accusation. I think something needs to be done to adjust that balance.

I agree. No one seems to be able to hear that, though.

What we hear is that you want to expel young men who haven't been convicted of anything. Are you denying that?

 

[bripat9643]

Here's the underlying problem. The standard for Criminal Conviction is "Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt". The practical effect is "How good is your lawyer"? Poor people get railroaded into prison all the time while affluent people either get off or get less than they deserve.

Universities don't operate under that standard and they can't. They have to balance the privilege (not right) of one student to attend their university vs. the safety of every female on that campus. Unfortunately, any calculation using that standard is always going to work against the accused.

That's a biased system of "justice." Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt is the standard of justice in this country. If you have a problem with that, then get the law changed. College campuses don't get to change it just because the feminist lobby is powerful on campus.

 

[GHook93]

Betsy DeVos Plans to Weaken Obama’s Campus Sexual Assault Rules

The Department of Education announced on Thursday that it will weaken a set of requirements for how colleges and universities are expected to handle cases of sexual assault on college campuses. In a speech at George Mason University in Virginia, Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos criticized a set of rules that the department hadissued in 2011 that, under Title IX, forced colleges to conduct their own investigations and stated police reports cannot be used to determine whether a violation occurred, because a criminal case requires stronger evidence.

The Department of Education will take comments from the public before issuing new guidelines, though DeVos’ remarks suggest that the new standard will likely to be a significant departure from the Obama-era rules. DeVos called the current process for handling sexual misconduct “shameful,” a “failed system,” and “wholly unAmerican.”

“The truth is that the system established by the prior administration has failed too many students,” DeVos said. “Survivors, victims of a lack of due process, and campus administrators have all told me that the current approach does a disservice to everyone involved.” Critics of the Obama-era rule have argued that it does not offer adequate due process for the students accused of sexual misconduct. Under the directive, institutions of higher education use the “preponderance of evidence” standard, which requires a 51 percent certainty in determining guilt. Sexual violence is often difficult to prove to a higher certainty, and false accusations are extremely rare. But in July, DeVos’ deputy in charge of civil rights suggested that 90 percent of sexual assault allegations at colleges are false.

I predict that testimony from experts in sexual assault investigation and prosecution, you know, police and prosecutors… will be ignored. Don't bother bringing stats or data…that's elitist.


She "believes" in her gut that 90% of allegations are false… so it must be. Because we trust the gut over any thorough and thoughtful analysis and research any day of the week and twice on Sundays… That's the alternative fact America we live in. It doesn't matter what any so-called "expert" tells her… I mean, she's never been raped, so it probably never happens…

You are such a partisan hack it is astonishing.

"set of rules that the department had issued in 2011 that, under Title IX, forced colleges to conduct their own investigations and stated police reports cannot be used to determine whether a violation occurred, because a criminal case requires stronger evidence"


Why in god's green earth do you think a liberal school administration can do a better criminal investigation than the police? The police are trained for this and should be the first line of defense. Schools are supposed to teach kids (which has turned into indoctrinating kids).

This was a foolish requirement


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[bripat9643]

Betsy DeVos Plans to Weaken Obama’s Campus Sexual Assault Rules

The Department of Education announced on Thursday that it will weaken a set of requirements for how colleges and universities are expected to handle cases of sexual assault on college campuses. In a speech at George Mason University in Virginia, Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos criticized a set of rules that the department hadissued in 2011 that, under Title IX, forced colleges to conduct their own investigations and stated police reports cannot be used to determine whether a violation occurred, because a criminal case requires stronger evidence.

The Department of Education will take comments from the public before issuing new guidelines, though DeVos’ remarks suggest that the new standard will likely to be a significant departure from the Obama-era rules. DeVos called the current process for handling sexual misconduct “shameful,” a “failed system,” and “wholly unAmerican.”

“The truth is that the system established by the prior administration has failed too many students,” DeVos said. “Survivors, victims of a lack of due process, and campus administrators have all told me that the current approach does a disservice to everyone involved.” Critics of the Obama-era rule have argued that it does not offer adequate due process for the students accused of sexual misconduct. Under the directive, institutions of higher education use the “preponderance of evidence” standard, which requires a 51 percent certainty in determining guilt. Sexual violence is often difficult to prove to a higher certainty, and false accusations are extremely rare. But in July, DeVos’ deputy in charge of civil rights suggested that 90 percent of sexual assault allegations at colleges are false.

I predict that testimony from experts in sexual assault investigation and prosecution, you know, police and prosecutors… will be ignored. Don't bother bringing stats or data…that's elitist.


She "believes" in her gut that 90% of allegations are false… so it must be. Because we trust the gut over any thorough and thoughtful analysis and research any day of the week and twice on Sundays… That's the alternative fact America we live in. It doesn't matter what any so-called "expert" tells her… I mean, she's never been raped, so it probably never happens…

You are such a partisan hack it is astonishing.

"set of rules that the department had issued in 2011 that, under Title IX, forced colleges to conduct their own investigations and stated police reports cannot be used to determine whether a violation occurred, because a criminal case requires stronger evidence"


Why in god's green earth do you think a liberal school administration can do a better criminal investigation than the police? The police are trained for this and should be the first line of defense. Schools are supposed to teach kids (which has turned into indoctrinating kids).

This was a foolish requirement


Sent from my iPhone using USMessageBoard.com

That is the Obama Dept of "Justice" ordering universities to conduct witch hunts. It wasn't "foolish." It was deliberate evil. Scum like Obama don't believe in justice.

 

[Missouri_Mike]

Sure they can, and should. But it's not up to them to investigate or prosecute. They report the crime, sit back and STFU.

again, going to explain this to you one more time.

Biff rapes Sally at a party.

The police don't arrest him. Maybe they think the girl was asking for it. Maybe she doesn't remember details because she was drunk. Maybe she's too scared to go forward. Maybe they are just misogynist pigs.

But the University would be INSANE to let Biff keep walking around campus. Shit, HE GOT AWAY WITH IT!!! What's to stop him from trying it again?

Oh, yeah. THrowing his ass off campus. That would stop him.

But if Biff rapes Buffy at the next frat party, Buffy can sue the shit out of the University because they KNEW Biff was a sexual predator and they let him on campus.

And you know what you have with all of those maybes? NO CASE. And with that the school has no right to kick him out and tarnish his record with unproven bull.

 

[JoeB131]

How whacked out are you? If the police find that there is not enough evidence of a crime, you do not get to punish someone in a kangaroo court.

Well, maybe the girl's sorority sisters can lure the accused into a back alley and have a chat with him using baseball bats. That would work too.

The problem with the police is generally, they kind of suck at investigating rape. It's why only 3% of rapists ever see the inside of a prison cell.

And you know what you have with all of those maybes? NO CASE. And with that the school has no right to kick him out and tarnish his record with unproven bull.

again, the University isn't there to provide Biff with "Due Process", they are there to protect their students.

And if it's a balancing act between Biff and hundreds of female students that need to be protected from him, that's an easy on.

So long, Biff!