Zone1 Do you get a lot of misogyny when you ditch MARY in your religion?

[hadit]

I don’t take instruction from ignorant believers. I know and you can check it, what I said is fact.
I don’t care if you don’t believe it but that won’t change the fact it is true.
So much for her being a virgin.

Okay, so your schtick is to find where people are discussing spiritual matters and start yelling, "Is not, is not" as much as you can?

 

[hadit]

The difficulty in our discussion is our different perspectives. Allow me this analogy. Visualize a wall. I decide I want to see outside, yet keep the room weatherproof. You say to be able to see outside, I need to put in glass, because humans can see through glass. To have a window, I note that I will need studs, frames, latches, rollers, etc. You point out I don't need a latch to see outside. I argue that a latch is part and parcel of a window. You are correct is saying only glass is needed to see outside. I am correct in noting a viable window is not glass alone. Now to return to the main discussion.

Jesus taught us several things about sin and repentance:

• Sins are forgiven
• Repentance for the forgiveness of sin
• Not only must we vanquish the sin, we must replace that sinful action with another act, less even more sin enters into the empty place.
• Jesus life and death centered around whether he had the authority to announce "Sins are forgiven"
• What is done in darkness will be brought to light

As Catholics, we celebrate Christ's life, death, and resurrection. The seven sacraments were the structure of Jesus' ministry and therefore the structure of life in the Church. Jesus spoke the words and spoke out, "Sins are forgiven." That was a big part of his ministry.

Wrong-doings are sins against God, usually against one or more individuals, and the Church community. Therefore, the sins we commit in darkness, we do not keep to ourselves. We bring them to light by confessing them to the community (the priest represents the entire community). This is the first step towards turning away from that sin: We recognize the sin and admit to it. For serious sin, the priest determines if restitution has been made to the injured parties. This must be done before Jesus' words of forgiveness are announced. Is there true sorrow and the determination to turn away from this sin? A prayer is assigned/recommended/used (however anyone wants to put it) to turn to when one is again tempted to commit that sin. Assigning a prayer (which you see only as a "token") is an assignment of a period of time for reflection of Christ telling us we must take time to discern the will of God and follow it.

What you are calling a priest's "power" to forgive sin is not quite right. More precisely, the priest has the authority from God (being an ordained priest), and from the community, to announce the forgiveness of sins, and the community, all being disciples of Christ have the birthright of their baptism to hear Christ's words spoken to them personally, "Your sins are forgiven." We participate in the life of Christ and hear the words he spoke with our own ears, just as his disciples did in their time.

You can rightly advise, "You want to see outside? Poke a whole in the wall and be done with it." In the same way, you can commit a sin, drop to your knees in prayer and say you committed a sin, but you totally believe in his promise that sins are forgiven. Amen.

For Catholics, the sacraments and our rituals have great meaning and are a doorway back into the memory and tradition of Christ and the Apostles. It is not for everyone.

The penitent then is actually forgiven BEFORE he goes to the priest, because God sees his repentant heart, correct? The priest merely performs a ceremonial role. Or are you taught that you are not forgiven unless you go to confession?

 

[notmyfault2020]

You can rightly advise, "You want to see outside? Poke a whole in the wall and be done with it." In the same way, you can commit a sin, drop to your knees in prayer and say you committed a sin, but you totally believe in his promise that sins are forgiven. Amen.

you left out an important aspect of the problem. Protestants poke a hole in the wall but demons come through that hole, as you allude to in another paragraph here (sometimes going to the extreme of telling themselves they don't even have to confess directly to God [certain of their sins? Any of them?]). Catholics like to put a nice new window there in the hole in the wall to keep the damn devil out

preferably a stained glass one of the Virgin Mary and/or some other Heavenly being

 

[notmyfault2020]

The penitent then is actually forgiven BEFORE he goes to the priest, because God sees his repentant heart, correct? The priest merely performs a ceremonial role. Or are you taught that you are not forgiven unless you go to confession?

Reconciliation is a SACRAMENT, a visible sign of an invisible grace. We humans are physical as well as spiritual, so we benefit from physically-involved blessings.. as it were

 

[hadit]

Reconciliation is a SACRAMENT, a visible sign of an invisible grace. We humans are physical as well as spiritual, so we benefit from physically-involved blessings.. as it were

That doesn't answer the question, does it?

 

[there4eyeM]

If Jesus is what he said he was, no intercessor is needed, or even possible.

 

[notmyfault2020]

If Jesus is what he said he was, no intercessor is needed, or even possible.

Mary works WITH Jesus, and when you have her, you have Jesus. They are now in Heaven together.

So.. too bad protestants see them as being separated. But protestants don't seem to see so great.. need new glasses.. the old ones are not working

 

[Mashmont]

It seems this is so. The Protestants overall seem more misogynistic than Catholics, although I normally don't like to overly-generalize. I am basing this view on my own experiences.

I've had issues with both Protestant and Catholic people, both "faith communities" so don't think for a moment that I am always in the Catholics' "camp" because I am not. If anyone has reason to leave the CC, it is yours truly. But I don't ditch the whole thing like tossing out the baby w/ the bathwater..

In any case, I read a book written by an exorcist and he says that while they are praying the rosary over thedemon possessed.. Mary eventually appears and that is when the demon goes back to Hell

so that's interesting. I have also found Mary to be helpful in .. lesser situations, shall we say.

she is our loving Mother (given to us through Jesus who gave her to St John right before He died on the Cross)

Saying the Rosary faithfully every day is how you get out of Purgatory altogether. That's one of the 15 promises of the Rosary.

 

[Clyde 154]

Women are to be silent in the churches. They are not permitted to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says.
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

{shrugs shoulders} ... that is what it says in the Bible ...

As explained in scripture........there is no hatred directed toward female members of Christ's church/kingdom of God. (Gal. 3:28-29) explains with no ambiguity whatsoever that all members are equal heirs to the promise made to father Abraham, ".....there is neither male nor female......." when you are batpized into Jesus you are EQUAL heirs of the promises made by God....because Jesus is the seed spoken of in prophecy "........until the seed comes......"

"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, and to seeds; as of many; but as one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." -- Gal. 3:16

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 is also explained with no ambiguity. Females are not allowed leadership roles within the heirarchy of the church that would supercede the authority of the male leadership because that is the natural hierarchy established by God. The male is the head of the household, the female and male are equal members.....and the 2 become "1" through marriage, both hold authority over their children and share equally the responsiblities of the family.

Thoughout all the ages of the Bible........its been the male who leads in all worship services to God. In the days of Abraham (the partriarchal age) it was the fathers who lead in worship to God. In the Mosaic age (THE LAW OF MOSES).....leadership worship was strictly reserved for males in the Levite tribe. Thus women cannot teach men (1 Tim. 2:11-12)

Learned women can "instruct" men when they are making errors in their worship services.......privately (Act 18:26), notice these women did not interupt the service.......they took the speaker aside to instruct in private. But women are not allowed to teach men during the formal services. Women are to "teach" other women and children (Tit. 2:3-5)

Women are allowed to make "prophecy" as exampled in (Acts 21:9).........note this passage does not declare these 4 daughters where allowed prophecy in the church services.

Women are equal in the eyes of God and the Chruch.....but, can't hold authority over men because........as explained by the Apostle, "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ........the head of the wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God (the Father)............THIS PASSAGE GOES ON TO EXPLAIN THIS HIERARCHY FROM GOD.

..........For man was not made from woman, but woman from man, neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. This is why woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head (a covering).........NEVERTHELESS, in the Lord (church leadership.....after being batpized into Christ) WOMAN IS NOT INDEPENDENT FROM MAN OR MAN FROM WOMAN........" -- 1 Cor. 11

A True Christian is anything but a misogynist and gives all respect and honor to female members of Christ's church.

Simply because you don't agree with God's design and teachings does not make those who accept the teachings of the Holy Bible a misogynist. There could be no men without women....their could be no family ordained by God void of a good woman. A Christian is to mold the Word of God around himself........not attempt to mold God's word to please his personal ideologies.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Saying the Rosary faithfully every day is how you get out of Purgatory altogether. That's one of the 15 promises of the Rosary.

I wonder if anyone who doesn't pray the rosary gets to Heaven.. ? Seriously. I mean, it is like having Mary pray for you or something.. but I guess it is more WITH her

or maybe they do eventually but they spend 100 years purgating..

 

[Meriweather]

The penitent then is actually forgiven BEFORE he goes to the priest, because God sees his repentant heart, correct? The priest merely performs a ceremonial role. Or are you taught that you are not forgiven unless you go to confession?

Note what Jesus said: Sins are forgiven. He did not say, Sins will be forgiven after I give up my life. Jesus said Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He also noted that cleaning house of sin would not solve the problem unless that sin was replaced with something good. He said what people try to keep in darkness will be brought into light. By confessing sins to the community (via the priest) brings that which was hidden into the light. The priest can also counsel a person on how/what they might choose to replace sinful behavior. The priest can advise one of a sin not yet forgiven due to lack of restitution or no honest effort being made to turn from that sin.

Confession is much more than a ceremonial role. It is a participation in the life Christ and the Apostles lived.

Catholics go to the Sacrament and enter into the life of Christ to confess. That is what we do. If that is not what someone else wants, maybe because it is too lengthy and they want a shortcut, that is a decision they make--perhaps through prayer and in consultation with our Lord. There is no need to judge other practices.

That works both ways. Catholics have no need to judge the shorter practices of non-Catholic Christians. Non-Catholic Christians have no need to judge the more formal/lengthier practices of Catholics. Most Catholics who actively enter into the Sacrament of Reconciliation will confide what a blessing it is.

 

[hadit]

I wonder if anyone who doesn't pray the rosary gets to Heaven.. ? Seriously. I mean, it is like having Mary pray for you or something.. but I guess it is more WITH her

or maybe they do eventually but they spend 100 years purgating..

Purgatory is not Biblical.

 

[Clyde 154]

Purgatory is not Biblical.

Nor is praying to anyone other than God..........nor is "original sin".........nor is voting someone into a manmade office such as POPE that is self professing to be the Vicar of Christ...i.e., speaking with the same authority as our Lord Jesus as if He (Jesus) was here on earth speaking new doctrine every time a Pope opens his mouth to speak...........

There is no such animal as a "UNIVERSAL CHURCH" structure found in the Holy Bible. There is no comand to pray to a middle man such as a priest......as the Bible tells us that we have only one high priest ....Christ Jesus that we as Christians can approach at any time. The origanization calling itself the Universal Church...i.e., the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) has established a leadership hierarchy as such (Bishops, Cardinals, and Pope......where the Cardinal is over the Bishop and the Pope over the entire UNIVERSAL CHURCH. Such cannot be found in the bible.

The RCC teaches that its man made tradition coming from a Papal Decree holds authority over the written word and can actually change the Word of God.

A list of RCC practices that are not found in the Bible? 1. Praying to Marry as the mother of God. 2. Celibrarcy of its priests. (1 Cor. 7:2) 3. Transubstantiation (a practice that declares the Wine and Bread taken during Communion are actually.....changed, transformed into the literal Body and Blood of Jesus.......while the Bible teaches these acts are symbolism only and are to be practiced every Lord's day (Sunday) in remembrance of Jesus and the Hope of His return until the actual day of His return) 4. Purgatory is not found in the Bible (a place where man is allowed to vacate his/her sin through punishment.......the Bible speaks of HADES.......the realm of the dead awaiting final judgement of the Spirit. There is no hope for those who die in their sins as explained in LUKE 16......which declared it impossible for the evil rich man to even warn those who he loved in life might less work out his own sin through punishment 5. VIRIGN MARRY......remained a virign..... is not found in the Bible.....in fact the Bible makes it clear that Joseph and Mary had other children (Matt. 12:46-47).....no one ever prayed to or worshiped Mary in the bible.

The list goes on of things not found in the Bible practiced by the RCC and its tradition. The Bible teaches that all Christians are members of a Royal Priest hood and equal (1 Peter 2:9)........there is no command to dress in special grab and separate the members from the clergy, all are equal in Jesus (Gal. 3:28-29) There is no need of anyone required for the Christian to approach the throne of God....i.e., Jesus Christ...in prayer for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[Meriweather]

Purgatory is not Biblical.

Purging and being tested in fire is...

 

[hadit]

Note what Jesus said: Sins are forgiven. He did not say, Sins will be forgiven after I give up my life. Jesus said Repentance for the forgiveness of sins. He also noted that cleaning house of sin would not solve the problem unless that sin was replaced with something good. He said what people try to keep in darkness will be brought into light. By confessing sins to the community (via the priest) brings that which was hidden into the light. The priest can also counsel a person on how/what they might choose to replace sinful behavior. The priest can advise one of a sin not yet forgiven due to lack of restitution or no honest effort being made to turn from that sin.

Confession is much more than a ceremonial role. It is a participation in the life Christ and the Apostles lived.

Catholics go to the Sacrament and enter into the life of Christ to confess. That is what we do. If that is not what someone else wants, maybe because it is too lengthy and they want a shortcut, that is a decision they make--perhaps through prayer and in consultation with our Lord. There is no need to judge other practices.

That works both ways. Catholics have no need to judge the shorter practices of non-Catholic Christians. Non-Catholic Christians have no need to judge the more formal/lengthier practices of Catholics. Most Catholics who actively enter into the Sacrament of Reconciliation will confide what a blessing it is.

In order to be truly universal, the gospel of Christ HAS to be applicable to everyone everywhere at all times. Thus, someone with no knowledge of any of the CC's traditions or formalities has to have the same access to Christ as the thief on the cross, who was not baptized, went through no classes, confessed to no priest. He merely expressed his faith that Christ would save him. It's not a shortcut, it's the basis of the Gospel, and that's what we need. We need to be very careful when adding things. It's okay to say, "This is meaningful, it's a good thing to do", but when you cross the line into, "This is absolutely required", you violate the spirit of the Gospel. Thus, a priest can guide someone into confession and repentance, but he's not able to forgive, and penitents need to understand the difference.

 

[hadit]

Purging and being tested in fire is...

That's judgement, and there's no indication that people drift around for a period of time before finally being spit out the other side like Jonah. The time for the believer to be cleansed and purified is during their lifetime.

 

[Meriweather]

Thus, a priest can guide someone into confession and repentance, but he's not able to forgive, and penitents need to understand the difference.

Catholics do. Protestants do not--they decide Catholic believes certain things, knowing nothing about Catholicism. As Bishop Fulton Sheen noted decades ago,

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”​

Unfortunately, it is easier for Catholics to simply shrug at non-Catholic perceptions. Note that after our own discussion you tell me "penitents need to understand the difference." I assume you mean Catholic penitents, of which I am one and was taught this difference by the Catholic Church at a very young age. Perhaps you missed the memo?

 

[Meriweather]

That's judgement, and there's no indication that people drift around for a period of time before finally being spit out the other side like Jonah. The time for the believer to be cleansed and purified is during their lifetime.

Rather than judgement it is a notation of what Scriptures and the Gospels reference. "Purgatory" has its Latin roots in purging or purifying gold is tested in fire. Catholic belief, following Jewish/Apostolic traditions and Christ's own words talk about purification occurring after death. I believe the Jewish tradition marks the end of this purification time on the one-year date of passing anniversary.

 

[hadit]

Catholics do. Protestants do not--they decide Catholic believes certain things, knowing nothing about Catholicism. As Bishop Fulton Sheen noted decades ago,

“There are not one hundred people in the United States who hate The Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they wrongly perceive the Catholic Church to be.”​

Unfortunately, it is easier for Catholics to simply shrug at non-Catholic perceptions. Note that after our own discussion you tell me "penitents need to understand the difference." I assume you mean Catholic penitents, of which I am one and was taught this difference by the Catholic Church at a very young age. Perhaps you missed the memo?

Hence my asking questions and not accusing you of anything. My problem with the CC, and quite frankly, a whole lot of other denominations as well, is when they add a lot of extra-Biblical requirements and give them authority equal to or greater than Scripture itself. I contend that Christianity HAS to be relevant to everyone everywhere at all times, not to European centric cathedrals, castes of priests, and layers of administrative overhead. God speaks to His people wherever they are, and no one needs to go to a building, genuflect before a statue, light a candle or anything else to communicate with Him.

 

[notmyfault2020]

Purging and being tested in fire is...

In Maccabees, a book the Protestants deemed unworthy to remain in the Bible they claim to revere and live by

it speaks of praying for the dead, that they be "loosed from their sins"

Protestants generally are not deep into either the Old T (which the New is based on) OR history. Once they start studying such things, they cease to be Protestant

but a lot of them fear that more than anything