Do you have a problem with Tennessee's "curbs [for] trans treatment and drag for children"?

[Frankenstein]

It almost feels like we are nearing critical mass. The BMJ out with a new article, warning of the risk of overtreatment in kids and acknowledgement that the evidence is weak. How long until we get to a point where many on the loony left start claiming they never supported this shit?

Caring for young people with gender dysphoria

The debate on gender dysphoria perfectly captures all that is unsavoury about the intersection of science, medicine, and social media. Entrenched, even aggressively argued views are nothing new in science and medicine. But when it comes to gender dysphoria, just as with covid-19, there is little...

www.bmj.com

Depends on whether or not it gets votes period!

 

[Robz]

Gender dysphoria is another name for mentally ill, they need help, not genital mutilation!

Most do. Probably some small percentage that may benefit. But certainly not many. I work with kids and its crazy the number of kids identifying as trans.

 

[Frankenstein]

Most do. Probably some small percentage that may benefit. But certainly not many. I work with kids and its crazy the number of kids identifying as trans.

What is the ratio of boys becoming girls to the opposite?

 

[Robz]

What is the ratio of boys becoming girls to the opposite?

In the academic literature, girls claiming to be boys have become the majority (far different than the past). In my land of anecdote, it's more boys claiming to be girls. It's also possible It's just easier to tell with the males. Shrug.

 

[Seymour Flops]

It almost feels like we are nearing critical mass. The BMJ out with a new article, warning of the risk of overtreatment in kids and acknowledgement that the evidence is weak. How long until we get to a point where many on the loony left start claiming they never supported this shit?

Caring for young people with gender dysphoria

The debate on gender dysphoria perfectly captures all that is unsavoury about the intersection of science, medicine, and social media. Entrenched, even aggressively argued views are nothing new in science and medicine. But when it comes to gender dysphoria, just as with covid-19, there is little...

www.bmj.com

Very good source, worthy of the attention of anyone actually interested in the science.

From the article: The dilemma is more acute if the person seeking care is a child or adolescent.

An understatement. Anyone with any common sense who has worked with or raised a child or adolescent knows that giving them what they want merely because they want it is a recipe for disaster. For the people around the child but even moreso for the child.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Most do. Probably some small percentage that may benefit. But certainly not many. I work with kids and its crazy the number of kids identifying as trans.

It is often attention seeking, or just following the latest fad.

Kids can’t help but see the cult of victimhood as virtue pushed in the media, so they jump on the “I’m trans too” movement the same way girls worshipped the Beatles.

 

[HeyNorm]

Name calling won't change the fact that professional medical providers disagree with you.

Center for Gender Surgery Program | Boston Children's Hospital

Gee, an entity that likely recieves, or members receive federal funding, that considers trans issues as reasons to discontinue funding, disagrees with me?

Ah shucks, who woulda ever thought?

 

[Robz]

Very good source, worthy of the attention of anyone actually interested in the science.

From the article: The dilemma is more acute if the person seeking care is a child or adolescent.

An understatement. Anyone with any common sense who has worked with or raised a child or adolescent knows that giving them what they want merely because they want it is a recipe for disaster. For the people around the child but even moreso for the child.

And echoing a recent Reuters piece, medicalization including surgery without any psychological support. From bmj:

offered medical and surgical intervention for gender transition, sometimes bypassing any psychological support

From the referenced Reuters piece:

interviews with Reuters, doctors and other staff at 18 gender clinics across the country described their processes for evaluating patients. None described anything like the months-long assessments de Vries and her colleagues adopted in their research.

Which follows folks like olson-Kennedy and turban saying evaluation isn't even needed. Just trust kids, they know what they are.

 

[Seymour Flops]

And echoing a recent Reuters piece, medicalization including surgery without any psychological support. From bmj:

From the referenced Reuters piece:

Which follows folks like olson-Kennedy and turban saying evaluation isn't even needed. Just trust kids, they know what they are.

This shows their true motivation. The private counselling and psychological therapy is pretty lucrative for the counselor and the psychologist, but if the kids lucks into one with integrity who remembers what they learned about brain developement while getting their degree, they could delay the medicalization and surgery "needlessly," maybe even long enough that the kid ends up changing "their" mind.

In the words of Alec Baldwin:

ABC - Always Be Closing!

Many of the counselors and psychologists will try to close the deal as quickly as possible, especially if they are sure they will get the post-surgery counselling business from the patient. But it is the qua - sorry, physicians and surgeons - who make the most and will be most eager to close the deal.

No doubt the medicalizers are encouraging school counselors to counsel students to skip the psychologists. School counselors are the ultimate wannabe's of the psychology world, so it won't take much flattery such as telling them that they each are just as good as any of the real psychologists the doctors work with, to get them on board.

 

[Curried Goats]

You quoted it without comment, and I paraphrased it to show that it was nonsense.

You only showed yourself to be nonsense with your emotional editorializing.

Yes, they are being handed over the child transgenderization industry by public school personnel who hide what they are doing from parents and that will be stopped by voters/taxpayers/parents. You will not be consulted about that decision other than in your own district.

The only people this hurts are the children of bigot parents who will be less likely to open up to teachers about any distress or problems they are facing. The children of non bigoted parents will continue to receive care and loving support.

It is what the science says, and is the reason that many car rental companies won’t rent a car to people under 21, or older for some companies.

The science doesn't say we are fully mature at 21 does it?

Maybe use scientific journals as evidence for your scientific claims rather than car rental companies. Just saying....

I’m libertarian, so I don’t oppose adults doing what they please to their bodies. But denying the science that they are not ready to make an informed decision about altering their bodies to fit a perceived alternate gender only helps the profiteer, not the patient.

I'm not denying the science, I'm denying your sincerity with this argument.

To be clear the science says that the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until about 25 years old. This doesn't mean however that adolescents, even as young as 15 aren't capable of rational thought or understanding risk, it means that despite this they are more likely to enage in impulsive and risky behavior. This isn't inherently a bad thing either and engaging in risky behavior, preferably in a controlled and safe environment, helps teens develop new skills and prepares them to tackle future obstacles.

Maturation of the adolescent brain.

What let's me know this argument of yours is disengenous is that the science doesn't claim teens are incapable of rational thought or understanding long term ramifications, the danger is their risk of impulsive behavior. No one is impulsively transitioning. The current lawsuit working its way through court from a detransitioner shows her care took place over the course of 4 years. That's not impulse. If you were truly worried about dangerous impulsive behavior you'd be more concerned with keeping guns out of the hands of anyone younger than 25.

 

[Robz]

The only people this hurts are the children of bigot parents who will be less likely to open up to teachers about any distress or problems they are facing. The children of non bigoted parents will continue to receive care and loving susupport.

Hurts parents that are not 'bigoted':

Over 50 parents, including those who supported their child's new gender identity, sounded off to the New York Times over schools intentionally leaving parents out of the discussion."...Although some didn’t want their children to transition at all, others said they were open to it, but felt schools forced the process to move too quickly, and that they couldn’t raise concerns without being cut out completely or having their home labeled ‘unsafe,’" the report added.

Hurts the child:

Health chiefs say 'social transitioning' should be no longer be viewed as a 'neutral act' due to the significant effects it may have on a child's psychology....Therefore, it says encouraging social transitioning for prepubescent children should be considered carefully due to the mental health risks posed to the child when they reach their teenage years.

and:

"It's well established that one of the most important factors in helping gender-questioning children is family support," Dr. Erica Anderson told Fox News Digital in a phone interview. "So to deliberately deprive a child of support at a time potentially when they most need it is, I think, a serious error in judgment."

 

[Curried Goats]

Hurts parents that are not 'bigoted':


Hurts the child:

and:

I don't know what that's supposed to be. Maybe try a link.

 

[Robz]

I don't know what that's supposed to be. Maybe try a link.

You can copy paste to locate, if you want. but, the first is from a NYTimes article, the second from the NHS Cass review and the last from is from Dr Anderson (former WPATH president),

 

[Curried Goats]

You can copy paste to locate, if you want. but, the first is from a NYTimes article, the second from the NHS Cass review and the last from is from Dr Anderson (former WPATH president),

No. You can post a link or I will ignore it. I'm not hunting for your evidence.

 

[22lcidw]

No. You can post a link or I will ignore it. I'm not hunting for your evidence.

The alphabet gender agendas are just interference to blur the slow takeover of the United States from the powerful elites and the increase in totalitarian dictums. And it is worse in Europe. Peasant will kill peasant.....again! At the behest of the ruling elites.

 

[Seymour Flops]

To be clear the science says that the prefrontal cortex isn't fully developed until about 25 years old. This doesn't mean however that adolescents, even as young as 15 aren't capable of rational thought or understanding risk, it means that despite this they are more likely to enage in impulsive and risky behavior. This isn't inherently a bad thing either and engaging in risky behavior, preferably in a controlled and safe environment, helps teens develop new skills and prepares them to tackle future obstacles.

Maturation of the adolescent brain.

As I said, I'm libertarian, but libertarianism is for adults.

Maybe the age for adulthood should be set at 25, given that this is the scientific consensus for maturity as measured by brain development.

An eight year old being encouraged to express their gender confusion by dressing as the opposite sex, a twelve year old being given hormones to prevent their body from going through the normal maturing process and a sixteen year old having her breasts removed, are not mature adults when these life-changing decisions are made for them.

Only the most predatory of adult would do something like that to a child and only the most amoral of adults would support such behavior, merely becuase the other side opposes it.

What let's me know this argument of yours is disengenous is that the science doesn't claim teens are incapable of rational thought or understanding long term ramifications, the danger is their risk of impulsive behavior. No one is impulsively transitioning. The current lawsuit working its way through court from a detransitioner shows her care took place over the course of 4 years. That's not impulse. If you were truly worried about dangerous impulsive behavior you'd be more concerned with keeping guns out of the hands of anyone younger than 25.

That's a brilliant argument if I had been arguing that teens are too impulsive for transgenderization. I haven't, so it is a straw man.

I don't support allowing people under eighteen unfettered access to firearms. For the same reason that I don't support people under eighteen being given hormones and surgeries to force them into the appearance that adults tell they they should have. They don't have the maturity for life-altering decisions.

 

[Robz]

No. You can post a link or I will ignore it. I'm not hunting for your evidence.

lol. yes, copy/paste is tough for some. Takes amazing coordination to hit 2 keys all at the same time.

 

[Care4all]

No, dude, there is no argument that allowing a surgical procedure on a child that (which by the way is mostly cosmetic but destroys key elements of their reproductive systems) once done can never be undone, is anything but unethical.

Gender changing surgery is illegal ALREADY for those under 18.

So what are we discussing?

Puberty blockers...

that allegedly help the gender dysphoria patient not have and go through the body changes with puberty that they mentally reject.... They can not get surgery until they are an adult and go through months of psychological analysis and therapy to see if they are stable and certain and ready....before the knife is pulled out and most with gender dysphoria do not go through surgery...

The puberty blockers are temporary, they can be stopped at any time and what they did to block hormones, are automatically reversed from what I've read up on it....?

Shouldn't this decision be up to the parent and their child's doctors? I personally think it is all just nuts... But it isn't my child, and I have no idea what the parent is going through....?

.... shouldn't that truly be up to parents??

As far as drag shows in school not being allowed.... Was it ever really prevalent at all our schools or any of our schools? Was it an issue? Really?

 

[Curried Goats]

The alphabet gender agendas are just interference to blur the slow takeover of the United States from the powerful elites and the increase in totalitarian dictums. And it is worse in Europe. Peasant will kill peasant.....again! At the behest of the ruling elites.

Ok....

 

[Robz]

Ah, bringing out all the falsehoods.

Gender changing surgery is illegal ALREADY for those under 18.

I assume you mean just castration and neo vagina creation? It's not illegal. Jazz Jennings was 17. There are examples in the academic literature of kids at 15.

They can not get surgery... go through months of psychological analysis and therapy to see if they are stable and certain and ready...

From the BMJ, linked and posted earlier in this thread:

offered medical and surgical intervention for gender transition, sometimes bypassing any psychological support

The puberty blockers are temporary, they can be stopped at any time and what they did to block hormones, are automatically reversed from what I've read up on it..

Blockers are only reversible in the sense that puberty will restart once they stop taking the blocker. However, there are permanent impacts, though. Bone density, penis size (see Jazz Jennings again) as just two examples.