Does God Exist?

[Meriweather]

A poor analogy.

Grin. That is because it was not an analogy.

 

[Meriweather]

You really don't know what the results are because you won't know until you're dead

You are making the mistake of thinking the afterlife is the focus for people of faith. Not true. The focus for many of us is that God and His Word are the Way for this life, which merely extends into the next. I know. Right now. No waiting needed.

 

[Meriweather]

People have felt the need to create gods to explain what they cannot comprehend.

There is no need to create God. Need has nothing to do with it, something atheists cannot seem to comprehend. Why is that do you think?

 

[Meriweather]

What happens to the last god if we crack the code to the universe and are able to answer these questions?

Someone opined about this decades ago, saying that when scientists are able to answer these question, they will find the theologians there ahead of them.

 

[ding]

What happens to the last god if we crack the code to the universe and are able to answer these questions?

Someone opined about this decades ago, saying that when scientists are able to answer these question, they will find the theologians there ahead of them.

Yep. He was a chemist. A Nobel laureate. His name will come to me.

 

[ding]

Lots of world renowned scientists believe in God. They just don’t all believe in a personal God.

 

[alang1216]

One evidence of God's existence is the Bible itself - its accuracy.

You do know that there are forged texts as well as later edits and additions in the Christian canon?

Yes, I do. But they are not in my favorite Bible translation, the 1984 reference edition of NW

Maybe. But I think there are some disputed texts in the JW canon.

 

[ding]

Confusing religion with God is a fool’s game.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Evidence is not evidence.

Not what i said. But you made that up, because your madeup strawman is easier for you to grapple with.

When you want to step it up a bit and respond to something i actually said, give it a shot.

What the poster is calling evidence is not actually evidence. There, i spelled it out for you.

 

[alang1216]

Well we don’t know this is the first occurrence, right?

Do you really believe the organic micro machines of living organisms are happenstance? Have you seen the animations of the assembly line like machinations of these organic machines?

You think intelligence developed on earth before man? Zero evidence for that I'd say.

Yes I do. Simple natural laws can give rise to amazing things. Picture trillions of mindless molecules floating in water, what are the odds that they will form themselves into a regular geometric solid where every one is situated exactly like every other? Happens all the time, they are called crystals. No intelligence required.

 

[ding]

Evidence is not evidence.

Not what i said. But you made that up, because your madeup strawman is easier for you to grapple with.

When you want to step it up a bit and respond to something i actually said, give it a shot.

What the poster is calling evidence is not actually evidence. There, i spelled it out for you.

The universe being created from nothing and literally popping into existence and expanding and cooling until it became conscious is the evidence. The physical, biological and moral laws which existed before time and space is the evidence.

you are the one who has absolutely zero evidence for your beliefs.

 

[ding]

Well we don’t know this is the first occurrence, right?

Do you really believe the organic micro machines of living organisms are happenstance? Have you seen the animations of the assembly line like machinations of these organic machines?

You think intelligence developed on earth before man? Zero evidence for that I'd say.

Yes I do. Simple natural laws can give rise to amazing things. Picture trillions of mindless molecules floating in water, what are the odds that they will form themselves into a regular geometric solid where every one is situated exactly like every other? Happens all the time, they are called crystals. No intelligence required.

I didn’t say that.

do you think earth was the first place that evolved beings that know and create?

 

[ding]

Well we don’t know this is the first occurrence, right?

Do you really believe the organic micro machines of living organisms are happenstance? Have you seen the animations of the assembly line like machinations of these organic machines?

You think intelligence developed on earth before man? Zero evidence for that I'd say.

Yes I do. Simple natural laws can give rise to amazing things. Picture trillions of mindless molecules floating in water, what are the odds that they will form themselves into a regular geometric solid where every one is situated exactly like every other? Happens all the time, they are called crystals. No intelligence required.

The intelligence is in the laws of nature which predestined those things. It’s not an accident that life and intelligence is programmed into the fabric of existence.

 

[alang1216]

The intelligence is in the laws of nature which predestined those things. It’s not an accident that life and intelligence is programmed into the fabric of existence.

I think you are confusing complexity with intelligence.

It is one of the most amazing discoveries in the realm of mathematics that not only does the simple equation Zn+1 = Zn2 + C create the infinitely complex Mandelbrot Set, but we can also find the same iconic shape in the patterns created by many other equations.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

"Everything is evidence for it!"

When "everything" is evidence and nothing could be "not evidence for" and there can be no "evidence against", then you actually have NO evidence.

 

[Newtonian]

One evidence of God's existence is the Bible itself - its accuracy.

You do know that there are forged texts as well as later edits and additions in the Christian canon?

Yes, I do. But they are not in my favorite Bible translation, the 1984 reference edition of NW

Maybe. But I think there are some disputed texts in the JW canon.

Rare, but you are correct. However, my favorite Bible translation alerts the reader when manuscripts are variant. A good example is Psalms 82:1 -

Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.

wol.jw.org

Psalms 82:1 NW ref -
God* is stationing himself in the assembly+ of the Divine One;*+
In the middle of the gods* he judges:+

There are 3 footnotes - for God, Divine One and gods respectively. You can click on the asterisks to see the footnotes for yourself.

For the first occurrence - NW ref footnote:
"Hebrew elohim." Elohim is plural, it is used as the plural of excellence for a singular person (cp. Exodus 7:1 elohim of Moses).

The second footnote: [for NW "Divine One"]
"Or, “God.” Heb., ʼEl; LXXVg, “gods”; Sy, “angels.”
Hebrew el is singular for god/God.
LXX is the Greek Septuagint and reads gods in plural as in verse 6.
Vg is the latin Vulgate which also reads "gods."
Sy is the Syriac manuscripts - these read "angels"

The third footnote for "gods" in NW:
Or, “godlike ones.” Heb., ʼelo·himʹ; LXXVgc, “gods”; Sy, “angels”; T, “judges.”
In this case elohim is the literal plural for gods as in verse 6.
Again the Septuagint and Vulgate read "gods.
Again the Syriac reads "angels."
But now we add the reading of the Targums (T): "judges."
Note that my religion currently views the gods in verse 6 to be human judges.

Jesus, in his defense of his deity in John 10:34-36, shows which definition of Greek theos/god/God applies to him by quoting Psalms 82:6 where Jehovah calls other sons of God elohim/gods. Jesus says this verse cannot be nullified. Verse 1 is less reliable due to manuscript variants, so Jesus chose verse 6 which has no manuscript variants. He does not quote the end of verse 6 - he leaves it up to those listening to him to examine this verse which concludes by referring to these gods as sons of the Most High. This completed Jesus' point since he did not claim to be God but rather the Son of God.

Manuscript variants like at Psalms 82:1 are rare in Scripture.

 

[Newtonian]

Evidence is not evidence.

Not what i said. But you made that up, because your madeup strawman is easier for you to grapple with.

When you want to step it up a bit and respond to something i actually said, give it a shot.

What the poster is calling evidence is not actually evidence. There, i spelled it out for you.

OK, can you be more specific as to which evidence you do not consider evidence?

Btw - you are sparking my sense of humor!

 

[alang1216]

Maybe. But I think there are some disputed texts in the JW canon.

Rare, but you are correct. However, my favorite Bible translation alerts the reader when manuscripts are variant. A good example is Psalms 82:1 -

Much more common in the NT than the OT, I think. Maybe because we have more of the NT to compare.

Is it hard to know what to believe if you don't really know what God or Jesus said and did? Or does it even matter, faith is a better guide anyway?

 

[Newtonian]

Well we don’t know this is the first occurrence, right?

Do you really believe the organic micro machines of living organisms are happenstance? Have you seen the animations of the assembly line like machinations of these organic machines?

You think intelligence developed on earth before man? Zero evidence for that I'd say.

Yes I do. Simple natural laws can give rise to amazing things. Picture trillions of mindless molecules floating in water, what are the odds that they will form themselves into a regular geometric solid where every one is situated exactly like every other? Happens all the time, they are called crystals. No intelligence required.

The intelligence is in the laws of nature which predestined those things. It’s not an accident that life and intelligence is programmed into the fabric of existence.

You are only partly correct - normal for us humans, btw.

The fine tuned laws and properties of our universe allow for the creation of life and for intelligent life - however these do not evolve by chance.

For example, the precisely fine tuned rate for the expansion of our universe allowed for stars including supernovae to exist - and for supernovae to produce the elements needed for the creation of life.

Also the properties of these elements and complex compounds/molecules of these elements allow them to be arranged as informational rather than simply statistical molecules - for example: informational molecules (which also require translation and messenger molecules (e.g. messenger RNA).

However, information does not occur in molecules by chance - entropy works in the opposite direction - hence the difference between dead molecules and living molecules - at death information decays or leaves so that the functions of life cannot proceed.

For life to come into existence, informational molecules not only need to be created, along with translator molecules - but they need to be in the same place at the same time!

Btw - crystals are repetitive while informational molecules are variant.

The difficulty in creating life (which human creators cannot do) is illustrated in the environments needed to synthesize all of the 20 amino acids required for life:

Some amino acids prefer hot, others prefer cold for synthesis. Some prefer acid, others neutral or alkaline. Some prefer wet, others prefer dry - some even require condensing agents. You cannot have hot & cold, acid and alkaline, wet and dry in the same place at the same time. Unless, of course, an intelligent chemist is involved - of superior intelligence to us humans.

Would you all like me to post details as to the results of synthesis experiments like those of Miller - Urey, etc.? Suffice it to say for now that most are unaware that the primary chemical reaction product is formic acid, not amino acids. And that most amino acids and other molecules produced (the chemical reaction product proportions) are mostly useless (or worse) to life.

And, finally, chance synthesis of polypeptides from these amino acids and then further to proteins are always statistical, not informational. [chance formation of even statistical proteins has an incredibly low probability given favorable primordial soups.]

I should add the need for exact 3-d fit of enzymes and receptors for the life processes to proceed.

 

[james bond]

But really, you should ask yourself this: why would any God torture people because of their sincere beliefs?

Because that is the one commandment God wants us to obey -- that his Son Jesus died for our sins. Today, it's a positive test.

With Adam and Eve, God gave them a negative test of not eating fruit from a specific tree in heaven.

So why would God put today's non-believers and sinners to the Lake of Fire over it. Because God the Father hates sin and cannot be with sin. The non-believers reap what they sow by being separated from God. Jesus cleanses our sins and thus the only way to heaven.

As for the pain of burning in hell forever, we do not know what the Lake of Fire is really all about. It is a prophecy and propecies are allegory. For example, the entrance to heaven is not the pearly gate or wide gate, but the narrow gate and door. The door refers to Jesus and we go through the door and go on the narrow path. The others take the easy path and think their path is the way to heaven or salvation.

But didn't God create EVERYTHING? Why would He create a world in which sin is even possible? So, didn't He create sin, too?

No, God just got things started. From Adam's sin, Satan got domain of the world. In the Bible, he is called the "god of the world and prince of the power of the air." Yes, lower case 'god' that atheists unknowingly use to pay homage to Satan is in the Bible. God had to bring death into the world or else Satan would have taken over heaven. Sin was created by Adam and we became flesh and blood creatures. Jesus said no flesh and blood creatures will enter heaven, "I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable." 1 Corinthians 15:50. One has to be of flesh and bone, which Adam had, to enter heaven. Jesus had new flesh and bone after his resurrection. Thus, you and everyone else being of flesh and blood means death. This is one of the evidence of God. If we live to old age, then we will eventually die of that which has to do with blood -- heart attack and disease, cancer, and stroke.