Does it bother you that our entire government is based on forcing people via gunpoint

[JakeStarkey]

Isn't that basically what the Founding Fathers told king George, "You're not the boss of me?"

The Declaration was an indictment of the Rule of Law that King George III ignored or abrogated. They, above all, followed Locke, and the consent of the governed is required in a government of Rule of Law. We the People have selected our leges and we support the appointment of our Judges. We are all subject to the Rule of Law.

Yada, yada, yada . . . . The bottom line is that they told King George he wasn't going to boss them around anymore. The Declaration of Independence is fundamentally a libertarian manifesto.

Philosophically and structurally the DoI in fact repudiates libertarianism. But since you say it is "a libertarian manifesto", go for it and give us your evidence.

 

[taichiliberal]

Because humans are not perfect, a system of settling disputes must exist. Armed tribes where retribution or vendetta are practiced rarely create a peaceful and prosperous community. Tribes gave way to dictators and monarchs as man and society evolved. Then came Rome, and the notion of law. That a code of justice that is availible to all be established and posted.

This is the basis of civilization, laws that govern all. Governments are formed with the exclusive right to use force. In our case, we formed a government based on the input of the people governed. We entrust this government with the exclusive right to use force.

The left in this nation seeks to go back to kings and dictators. The anarchists seek to go back even further, to armed tribes.

The conservatives and Libertarians seek to maintain self-government and limit the power of government; realizing that government is like fire, a useful servant, but a force of unbridled destruction if not carefully contained.

And please give us a quote from someone on the "left" who stated in no uncertain terms that they want a return to a monarchy or establish a dictatorship.

If you can't, then you're just another neocon/teabagger/libertarian blowhard.

Between capitalist and communist society there lies the period of the revolutionary transformation of the one into the other. Corresponding to this is also a political transition period in which the state can be nothing, but the revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat.
- Karl Marx -

The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won, and maintained, by the use of violence, by the proletariat, against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws.
- Vladimir Lenin -

A state of the exploited must fundamentally differ from such a state; it must be a democracy for the exploited, and a means of suppressing the exploiters; and the suppression of a class means inequality for that class, its exclusion from democracy.
- Vladimir Lenin -

The proletariat cannot achieve victory without breaking the resistance of the bourgeoisie, without forcibly suppressing its adversaries, and that, where there is forcible suppression, where there is no freedom, there is, of course, no democracy.
- Vladimir Lenin -

And if you exploiters attempt to offer resistance to our proletarian revolution we shall ruthlessly suppress you; we shall deprive you of all rights; more than that, we shall not give you any bread, for in our proletarian republic the exploiters will have no rights, they will be deprived of fire and water, for we are socialists in real earnest, and not in the Scheidemann or Kautsky fashion.
- Vladimir Lenin -

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e. the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy. Simultaneously, with an immense expansion of democracy, which, for the first time, becomes democracy for the poor, democracy for the people, and not democracy for the money-bags, the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists. We must suppress them in order to free humanity from wage slavery, their resistance must be crushed by force; it is clear that there is no freedom and no democracy where there is suppression and where there is violence
- Vladimir Lenin -

This dictatorship consists in the manner of applying democracy, not in its elimination, but in energetic, resolute attacks upon the well-entrenched rights and economic relationships of bourgeois society, without which a socialist transformation cannot be accomplished. This dictatorship must be the work of the class, and not of a little leading minority in the name of the class—that is, it must proceed step by step out of the active participation of the masses; it must be under their direct influence, subjected to the control of complete public activity; it must arise out of the growing political training of the mass of the people.
- Rosa Luxemburg -

Friends of Russia here think of the dictatorship of the proletariat as merely a new form of representative government, in which only working men and women have votes, and the constituencies are partly occupational, not geographical. They think that "proletariat" means "proletariat", but "dictatorship" does not quite mean "dictatorship". This is the opposite of the truth. When a Russian Communist speaks of dictatorship, he means the word literally, but when he speaks of the proletariat, he means the word in a Pickwickian sense. He means the "class-conscious" part of the proletariat, i.e., the Communist Party.
- Bertrand Russell -

If you don't like your gov't...GET INVOLVED TO CHANGE IT! Remember bunky, it wasn't the "left" who cheered the Patriot Act or the Citizens United decision.

They cheered the Patriot act the minute Obama signed it.

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

 

[taichiliberal]

And here is an example of what burns the asses of every libertarian lunkhead, neocon and teabagger blowing smoke on this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6782108-post311.html

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And here is an example of what burns the asses of every libertarian lunkhead, neocon and teabagger blowing smoke on this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6782108-post311.html

Straw men don't bother us at all, actually.

 

[Uncensored2008]

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

Can I sell you some axles and wheels so that moving those goal posts will be accomplished with greater efficiency?

That's what we capitalists do, sell solutions...

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

In 1995 Joe Biden Basically Wrote The PATRIOT Act. - via Killfile - Newsvine

Blithering idiot indeed....

 

[bripat9643]

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

That isn't the question you asked, nimrod. You only asked for "leftists."

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

Obama also formulated and signed a new version of the Patriot Act.

 

[taichiliberal]

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

Can I sell you some axles and wheels so that moving those goal posts will be accomplished with greater efficiency?

That's what we capitalists do, sell solutions...

Seems all YOU are selling here is BS....my previous assessment stands.

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

In 1995 Joe Biden Basically Wrote The PATRIOT Act. - via Killfile - Newsvine

Blithering idiot indeed....

Yes, you are...because you immediately swallow any half-assed bilge that the right wing-nut punditry throws up. Here stupid, for your education from the REAL author of the damned thing:

Patriot Act Reauthorization Vote Myths and the War on Terror - The Daily Beast

 

[taichiliberal]

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

That isn't the question you asked, nimrod. You only asked for "leftists."

Go back and READ CAREFULLY, you simpleton. Then cut and paste where I wrote EXACTLY what you claim....if you can. If not, STFU!

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

Obama also formulated and signed a new version of the Patriot Act.

True, but here's the ORIGINAL author, genius.

Patriot Act Reauthorization Vote Myths and the War on Terror - The Daily Beast

 

[taichiliberal]

And here is an example of what burns the asses of every libertarian lunkhead, neocon and teabagger blowing smoke on this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6782108-post311.html

Straw men don't bother us at all, actually.

Ahhh, but FACTS do, genius!

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

And here is an example of what burns the asses of every libertarian lunkhead, neocon and teabagger blowing smoke on this thread:

http://www.usmessageboard.com/6782108-post311.html

Straw men don't bother us at all, actually.

Ahhh, but FACTS do, genius!

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Yes, you are...because you immediately swallow any half-assed bilge that the right wing-nut punditry throws up. Here stupid, for your education from the REAL author of the damned thing:

Patriot Act Reauthorization Vote Myths and the War on Terror - The Daily Beast

ROFL

You offer the whackjob leftist hate site "thedailybeast" as some sort of evidence?

BWAHAHAHAHA


{Months before the Oklahoma City bombing took place, Biden introduced another bill called the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. It previewed the 2001 Patriot Act by allowing secret evidence to be used in prosecutions, expanding the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and wiretap laws, creating a new federal crime of “terrorism” that could be invoked based on political beliefs, permitting the U.S. military to be used in civilian law enforcement, and allowing permanent detention of non-U.S. citizens without judicial review.* The Center for National Security Studies said the bill would erode “constitutional and statutory due process protections” and would “authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and assocblank Joe Biden Drafted the Core of the Patriot Act in 1995 .}


That Biden helped draft the core of the Patriot Act isn't a question, but a fact.

Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[taichiliberal]

Straw men don't bother us at all, actually.

Ahhh, but FACTS do, genius!

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

 

[dblack]

Ahhh, but FACTS do, genius!

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

Did you get that, Kevin? FACTS, goddammit! FACTS. Take that!

 

[taichiliberal]

Yes, you are...because you immediately swallow any half-assed bilge that the right wing-nut punditry throws up. Here stupid, for your education from the REAL author of the damned thing:

Patriot Act Reauthorization Vote Myths and the War on Terror - The Daily Beast

ROFL

You offer the whackjob leftist hate site "thedailybeast" as some sort of evidence?

BWAHAHAHAHA


{Months before the Oklahoma City bombing took place, Biden introduced another bill called the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995. It previewed the 2001 Patriot Act by allowing secret evidence to be used in prosecutions, expanding the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act and wiretap laws, creating a new federal crime of “terrorism” that could be invoked based on political beliefs, permitting the U.S. military to be used in civilian law enforcement, and allowing permanent detention of non-U.S. citizens without judicial review.* The Center for National Security Studies said the bill would erode “constitutional and statutory due process protections” and would “authorize the Justice Department to pick and choose crimes to investigate and prosecute based on political beliefs and assocblank Joe Biden Drafted the Core of the Patriot Act in 1995 .}


That Biden helped draft the core of the Patriot Act isn't a question, but a fact.

Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let's see, the Daily Beast post an editorial by the AUTHOR of the Patriot Act, and you latch onto a website that has been documented to be flawed and fallable to any yahoo with an agenda to alter the material contained within.

I swear, just when I think you can't get any dumber, you surprise me.

Now Remember, the AUTHOR of the Patriot Act was NOT Biden.

Biden was a CO-SPONSOR of the Omnibu-Counterterrorism Act of 1995....one of the reasons why I didn't vote for Slick Willy in his second term, and why I'm a registered Independent.

Here, for your education:

Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995 (1995; 104th Congress S. 761) - GovTrack.us

 

[taichiliberal]

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

Did you get that, Kevin? FACTS, goddammit! FACTS. Take that!

If EITHER one of you could honestly answer my questions, I'd be happy.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Let's see, the Daily Beast post an editorial by the AUTHOR of the Patriot Act, and you latch onto a website that has been documented to be flawed and fallable to any yahoo with an agenda to alter the material contained within.

First off, Viet D. Dinh is not the author of the USA Patriot act. Rep. Jim Sensenbrenner is credited as the author, with a full legal staff supporting.

Secondly, to bitch that Wikipedia is "flawed" while quoting the notorious, far left hate site, Dailybeast is beyond ironic.

I swear, just when I think you can't get any dumber, you surprise me.

Now Remember, the AUTHOR of the Patriot Act was NOT Biden.

Look, you're stupid, it's why you're a leftist.

But try and grasp simple concepts; no one said that Biden wrote the damned thing, what they - including Biden himself, said is that the USA Patriot act is partly BASED on the Omnibus Counterterrorism Act of 1995, which was drafted by Biden.

Biden was a CO-SPONSOR of the Omnibu-Counterterrorism Act of 1995....one of the reasons why I didn't vote for Slick Willy in his second term, and why I'm a registered Independent.

Here, for your education:

Which is the FOUNDATION of the Patriot act. And why avoid Clinton, when it is Obama that chose old plugs as his VP?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ahhh, but FACTS do, genius!

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

"And please point out the society in any part of the world throughout history where each individual citizen or subject were allowed to do whatever the hell they want without respect to or consideration of their neighbors and fellow citizens/subjects?" - You

Since that is a flawed premise, none of your conclusions can possibly be called "facts."

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Conclusions drawn from a flawed premise don't bother us either. Genius.

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

Did you get that, Kevin? FACTS, goddammit! FACTS. Take that!

I'm beginning to think it should be illegal to use the word "fact" or any derivation thereof.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I point to FACTS, my intellectually cowering libertarian....FACTS that reduce the premise of the subject title of this thread to the rubbish that it is. Neither YOU or your like minded compadres can honestly answer the questions I put forth...not surprising. But do keep dodging and blowing smoke, as all libertarians are want to do when properly challenged.

Did you get that, Kevin? FACTS, goddammit! FACTS. Take that!

If EITHER one of you could honestly answer my questions, I'd be happy.

If I RANDOMLY capitalize different WORDS in a sentence, does IT make my point BETTER?

Regardless, if you want to ask a question that doesn't make a nonsensical assumption that only goes to show your agenda is to "win" an argument, or try to make somebody else look foolish rather than engage in an actual discussion then I'd be more than willing to indulge you.

 

[Blooper]

None of your quotes are from any of the current leadership of the Democratic Party in the last 30 years, you imbecile. Put up or shut up.

That isn't the question you asked, nimrod. You only asked for "leftists."

Oh and did they cheer before or after they actually READ the damned thing? And FYI, the Patriot Act was formulated and signed UNDER GW BUSH, you blithering idiot!

Get your act together, man.

Obama also formulated and signed a new version of the Patriot Act.

And most of on the left don't support Obama either - the PA is just another reason on the growing list. State tyranny is state tyranny, no matter what label you put on it.