Employer healthcare plans should be abolished. Privatize it all the way.

[RandomPoster]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

 

[Rustic]

Why is it wrong to charge an unhealthy person 12 or even 20 times as much for healthcare as a healthy person if he is 12 or 20 times the risk? It is based on risk and potential expenses.

If you're an unhealthy person and you want to pay more for an individual plan than your employer
will charge you, you should definitely do that.

Healthy people should not have to pool their healthcare premiums with unhealthy people. If you are unhealthy, that is not my fault. I should be able to go out and buy cheap, unregulated health insurance and you should have to do the same or not get health insurance. If your premiums are 6,000 a month in a beautiful, free, unregulated market, why is that my problem? It's as bad as Obamacare.

Bingo! That is the problem With socialism/collectivism/the village/communism it forces everyone into the same pool of shit, Whether they want to partake or not.

This world would be a far better place if people took care of their own shit...

 

[Rustic]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

You do know that the law says that you can only charge 3 times the amount you charge the youngster right?

Pretty sure what he's complaining about is that as things stand now, if they work for the same employer, they probably have the same health plan and the same premium because the kid doesn't have a choice. It's the employer who decides what the plan will be, not the person being insured.

I can think of a few things I would like about a system where we purchase our healthcare and our health insurance the way we shop for and purchase other things. I would like insurance companies and health providers to have to compete for the business of the actual patients. I think we would be seeing an explosion of innovative new options, pricing, payment plans, etc. in no time.

We would...but the politicians and insurance companies have set up monopolies in states....more competition would mean cheaper and better healthcare, and more innovation with medicine......but that cuts the democrats out of the loop and they won't stand for that.

the only way to open all states to all companies is for all states to have the exact same standards and requirements. the only way to do that is for the Fed Govt to force them to comply. Only a statist would argue for such things

A statist Wants everyone to be there in the same misery

 

[Dragonlady]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

I worked in a law firm with 800 employees. Our firm "self-insured". They paid an amount equal to their employee group insurance premiums into a trust account at the beginning of the year, and they paid their employees' health insurance claims under their health care plan, out of that trust account. The firm purchased only "catastrophic" coverage for the staff. That is, if an employee had a stroke or a heart attack and required long term health care. All routine claims were handled through the "self-insurance" plan, Even paying for the administration of the insurance fund, the firm saved hundreds of thousands of dollars each year using this method.

Stop paying insurance company administration and profits, and go for single payer. Cheaper, easier, better. Everyone gets a swipe card, no copays, just walk in, hand them your card, and get treated. Just like every other first world nation.

 

[Rustic]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

So a pool?
Why the fuck would healthy people want any part of a pool?

 

[Rustic]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

I worked in a law firm with 800 employees. Our firm "self-insured". They paid an amount equal to their employee group insurance premiums into a trust account at the beginning of the year, and they paid their employees' health insurance claims under their health care plan, out of that trust account. The firm purchased only "catastrophic" coverage for the staff. That is, if an employee had a stroke or a heart attack and required long term health care. All routine claims were handled through the "self-insurance" plan, Even paying for the administration of the insurance fund, the firm saved hundreds of thousands of dollars each year using this method.

Stop paying insurance company administration and profits, and go for single payer. Cheaper, easier, better. Everyone gets a swipe card, no copays, just walk in, hand them your card, and get treated. Just like every other first world nation.

No thanks, Me and my family want no part of that along with millions of other Americans. I have never purchased insurance in my life for good reason it’s a fucking rip off… That’s what paying in the pool is all about ripping off the participants.

 

[Rustic]

I want a discount, cash/no paperwork option from my doctor. I'm willing to sigh a waiver promising not to sue him for malpractice if my cough turns out to be lung cancer.

"No paperwork" in what sense, exactly? Which paperwork are you objecting to?

Insurance reimbursement forms.

Yeah, uh, that's not your doctor's thing to control and decide. That's up to your insurance company.

I want to pay the doctor a reasonable fee for an office visit with cash, no insurance.

Bingo! The problem with pools is the providers can charge whatever they want because they’ll just take it out of the pool. If you put in competition along with The fact people only going to pay so much... Prices are going to remain reasonable.

 

[Rustic]

Pretty sure what he's complaining about is that as things stand now, if they work for the same employer, they probably have the same health plan and the same premium because the kid doesn't have a choice. It's the employer who decides what the plan will be, not the person being insured.

I can think of a few things I would like about a system where we purchase our healthcare and our health insurance the way we shop for and purchase other things. I would like insurance companies and health providers to have to compete for the business of the actual patients. I think we would be seeing an explosion of innovative new options, pricing, payment plans, etc. in no time.

We would...but the politicians and insurance companies have set up monopolies in states....more competition would mean cheaper and better healthcare, and more innovation with medicine......but that cuts the democrats out of the loop and they won't stand for that.

the only way to open all states to all companies is for all states to have the exact same standards and requirements. the only way to do that is for the Fed Govt to force them to comply. Only a statist would argue for such things

No.....you simply allow the insurance companies to offer whatever plans they feel will make them money...the competition for customer dollars will do the rest....including lowering cost, increasing quality...just like your cell phone and flat screen television...

Exactly, stop over-regulating it. The government messes up far more than they help.

Nonsense.

This is as naïve as it is wrongheaded.

A ‘free market’ will in no manner provide Americans access to affordable healthcare.

Insurance is not healthcare...
And that’s the problem with the insurance there is no way to control prices...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

Oh,thats easy, in regards to employer insurance. First, the risk pool is not just the employees of that company. So your model is oversimplified. In reality (ignoring the oversimplification), that kid would spend more than 3250 for the same coverage, buying it individually. This is due to the actuarial science of larger risk pools and risk determination of individual buyers.

You can check this for yourself. Take your premium at your employer, and then compare it to the same coverage purchased individually in the market. You will see.

 

[Dragonlady]

I want a discount, cash/no paperwork option from my doctor. I'm willing to sigh a waiver promising not to sue him for malpractice if my cough turns out to be lung cancer.

"No paperwork" in what sense, exactly? Which paperwork are you objecting to?

Insurance reimbursement forms.

Yeah, uh, that's not your doctor's thing to control and decide. That's up to your insurance company.

I want to pay the doctor a reasonable fee for an office visit with cash, no insurance.

Bingo! The problem with pools is the providers can charge whatever they want because they’ll just take it out of the pool. If you put in competition along with The fact people only going to pay so much... Prices are going to remain reasonable.

Bullshit. For profit medicine will all ways charge whatever the traffic will bear, and if Americans won't pay it the rich in the rest of the world will. Only in America do you pay twice as much for access to health care, and get half as much and COPAYS, because paying $12,000 a year in premiums doesn't give YOU enough "skin in the game".

Good luck with your first major illness Rustic. You'll be broke in a week.

 

[Rustic]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

You do know that the law says that you can only charge 3 times the amount you charge the youngster right?

Pretty sure what he's complaining about is that as things stand now, if they work for the same employer, they probably have the same health plan and the same premium because the kid doesn't have a choice. It's the employer who decides what the plan will be, not the person being insured.

I can think of a few things I would like about a system where we purchase our healthcare and our health insurance the way we shop for and purchase other things. I would like insurance companies and health providers to have to compete for the business of the actual patients. I think we would be seeing an explosion of innovative new options, pricing, payment plans, etc. in no time.

People do not and have never haggled over medical expenses. The medical industrial complex just charges whatever the traffic will bear.

Lol
Where do you come up with that? Both of my daughters births were a fraction of what insurance would’ve had to pay because I had\have cash in hand...

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

And that’s the problem with the insurance there is no way to control prices...

An excellent point, really, regarding direct price controls. Price can be mitigated by altering or increasing the risk pool, or by controlling costs of the items paid in claims (medical costs, for instance). Also, certain limits can be set on the percentage of collected premiums that must be paid out annually. But these are indirect methods of mitigating premiums,not direct price controls.

 

[Rustic]

"No paperwork" in what sense, exactly? Which paperwork are you objecting to?

Insurance reimbursement forms.

Yeah, uh, that's not your doctor's thing to control and decide. That's up to your insurance company.

I want to pay the doctor a reasonable fee for an office visit with cash, no insurance.

Bingo! The problem with pools is the providers can charge whatever they want because they’ll just take it out of the pool. If you put in competition along with The fact people only going to pay so much... Prices are going to remain reasonable.

Bullshit. For profit medicine will all ways charge whatever the traffic will bear, and if Americans won't pay it the rich in the rest of the world will. Only in America do you pay twice as much for access to health care, and get half as much and COPAYS, because paying $12,000 a year in premiums doesn't give YOU enough "skin in the game".

Good luck with your first major illness Rustic. You'll be broke in a week.

Lol
First of all the whole concept of insurance/pools is fucked up, it’s gonna be a fraudulent every time.
Socialized medicine/healthcare does not call for any type of prevention… It’s like Band-Aids on broken arms

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

Socialized medicine/healthcare does not call for any type of prevention…

Not accurate. One of the major reasons for better health outcomes in countries with universal healthcare is that the people get more regular checkups, and conditions are caught earlier.

 

[dblack]

There's a reason why every practice and facility has highly-trained and highly-paid people who handle billing, and it's not because they're just generating invoices and receipts like an auto parts store.

Back in the day, insurance companies didn't work directly with doctors regarding billing. The doctor billed the patient and the patient, if they were insured, filed a claim. I'd very much prefer going back to that model. I'm fed up with "pre-auth", and insurance companies injecting artificial limits to the services a doctor will provide. I'd rather deal with my doctor with no input from the insurance company. We can haggle over what they'll cover after the fact.

 

[dblack]

By far the most important element of cost containment is motivated consumers. As long as people aren't paying for their own health care, they have exactly no incentive to look for bargains.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together.

Hey, moron, go price a private plan and post the results.

How is the kid not losing out here?

Well, the kid is a moron, we're going to fire him next month and he'll have no insurance.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

Let's say one person is 40 years old and has a perfect driving record and pays 100 a month in car insurance. Another person is 23 years old, has been convicted of 6 DWIs and had 12 accidents in the last 5 years. He might pay 1200 a month even if he is the same age and drives the same model of car. I believe this is fair.

Let's say one person is 20 years old, single and in perfect health. He might pay 500 dollars a month with a non-regulated private insurer. Another person is 55 years old, morbidly obese, is married with 15 kids, and has a very expensive pre-existing condition. He goes to a non-regulated private insurer and they say they want 6,000 a month to insure him. How is this unfair?

Let's put them on the same plan and charge them both 3,250 a month. Heck, even 3,150 a month. How is this fair?

Um...those plans are already privatized. And you will get lower rates in a plan with more people,in general.

Let's try this again. The kid pays 500 a month on a private plane. The unhealthy guy pays 6,000 a month on a private plan. Instead of it being private, let's pool them together. An insurance company says it will insure them both and charge them 3,250 a month each. How is the kid not losing out here?

I worked in a law firm with 800 employees. Our firm "self-insured". They paid an amount equal to their employee group insurance premiums into a trust account at the beginning of the year, and they paid their employees' health insurance claims under their health care plan, out of that trust account. The firm purchased only "catastrophic" coverage for the staff. That is, if an employee had a stroke or a heart attack and required long term health care. All routine claims were handled through the "self-insurance" plan, Even paying for the administration of the insurance fund, the firm saved hundreds of thousands of dollars each year using this method.

Stop paying insurance company administration and profits, and go for single payer. Cheaper, easier, better. Everyone gets a swipe card, no copays, just walk in, hand them your card, and get treated. Just like every other first world nation.

Everyone gets a swipe card, no copays, just walk in, hand them your card, and get treated.

Just walk in? You forgot the 6 month waiting list.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

By far the most important element of cost containment is motivated consumers. As long as people aren't paying for their own health care, they have exactly no incentive to look for bargains.

And youre solution appears to be to point at them and say, "do better". Thats the opposite of a solution.

And you're nuts anyway. You dont have the opportunity nor the motivation to price care when you need emergency care, for one. Second, when you make use of medical equipment that has already been purchased, you arent going to find large proce variances in this care between providers. There's not a discount company making generic MRI machines.

Third, there are no discount insirance companies for doctors to insire themselves. They have a baseline cost that must be met.

 

[Rustic]

If socialized medicine/healthcare is so great why not make it 100%voluntary instead of mandatory?

....