EV Bus Explodes

[westwall]

That's a dishonest comparison.

How about an endurance race where a real car competes against an electric car, where the electric car is charged with a gasoline-fueled generator, and not allowed to use any other source, and both are limited to the same total amount of gasoline? Same amount of fuel, same amount of energy; which car will go faster and farther?

Once again, the ICE by a country mile.

 

[ding]

I don't think that can be answered in any rational way.

Oil is the energy source itself.

Lithium is only a material used in storing energy.

The two cannot be compared in any rational manner.

Sure it can. Calculate the energy equivalent of 88 million barrels of oil. That's how much energy is used each day. Now determine how many pounds of lithium it takes to replace that.

So that is what it will take to replace ICE vehicles with EV's. And that has to be reproduced every 7 to 10 years because that's the life of lithium ion batteries.

 

[ding]

How about an endurance race between an EV and an ICE vehicle in which the amounts of both lithium and gasoline are finite and fixed. Guess who wins?

Until the EV spontaneously combusts.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Sure it can. Calculate the energy equivalent of 88 million barrels of oil. That's how much energy is used each day. Now determine how many pounds of lithium it takes to replace that.

So that is what it will take to replace ICE vehicles with EV's. And that has to be reproduced every 7 to 10 years because that's the life of lithium ion batteries.

How many mason jars would it take to replace eighty-eight million barrels of oil?

Not to contain it. To take its place.

 

[ding]

How many mason jars would it take to replace eighty-eight million barrels of oil?

Not to contain it. To take its place.

Li-ion batteries have one of the highest energy densities of any battery technology today (100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L).

Barrel of oil equivalent (BOE) is the amount of energy contained in a barrel of crude oil, i.e., approximately 6.1 GJ (5.8 million Btu), equivalent to 1700kWh.

It's just math.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Li-ion batteries have one of the highest energy densities of any battery technology today (100-265 Wh/kg or 250-670 Wh/L).

Barrel of oil equivalent (BOE) is the amount of energy contained in a barrel of crude oil, i.e., approximately 6.1 GJ (5.8 million Btu), equivalent to 1700kWh.

Irrelevant.

Lithium batteries do not replace gasoline. They are a storage medium, and not the energy itself.

The manner in which you are trying to compare lithium to oil is completely irrational and invalid.

A rational, valid comparison would be of the amount of oil to be burned to generate the electricity to charge those batteries, compared to the amount of oil to be burned more directly in an internal combustion engine to power a car directly.

For every gallon of oil refined and consumed in each of those manners, which one do you think will send a car further and faster? And if we're competing for any distance, beyond the basic range of each vehicle, then you need to take into account, also, the time to refuel a real car compared to the time to recharge an electric car.

———

If you want to compare lithium to anything, the valid comparison would be to the fuel tank in a real car.

You've been harping on the point that an electric car does not consume lithium as it runs. When it runs out of juice, the lithium is still there, and can be recharged.

Likewise, a real car does not consume its fuel tank. When the tank runs empty, it is still there, ready to be filled up with more gasoline.

Now, for any way in which we can compare a lithium battery to a gasoline tank, in terms of size, mass, cost, whatever; which one will give you more distance and speed relative to whatever criterion you use for that comparison?

 

[ding]

Irrelevant.

Lithium batteries do not replace gasoline. They are a storage medium, and not the energy itself.

The manner in which you are trying to compare lithium to oil is completely irrational and invalid.

A rational, valid comparison would be of the amount of oil to be burned to generate the electricity to charge those batteries, compared to the amount of oil to be burned more directly in an internal combustion engine to power a car directly.

For every galloon of oil refined and consumed in each of those manners, which one do you think will send a car further and faster? And if we're competing for any distance, beyond the basic range of each vehicle, then you need to take into account, also, the time to refuel a real car compared to the time to recharge an electric car.

———

If you want to compare lithium to anything, the valid comparison would be to the fuel tank in a real car.

You've been harping on the point that an electric car does not consume lithium as it runs. When it runs out of juice, the lithium is still there, and can be recharged.

Likewise, a real car does not consume its fuel tank. When the tank runs empty, it is still there, ready to be filled up with more gasoline.

Now, for any way in which we can compare a lithium battery to a gasoline tank, in terms of size, mass, cost, whatever; which one will give you more distance relative to whatever criterion you use for that comparison?

You are missing the point. There will be a required amount of lithium to replace ICE vehicles and that will have to be reproduced every 7 to 10 years.

 

[Mac-7]

Well, let's see, if I can drive for several years on the lithium in my car right now and YOU can only drive a few miles on the gasoline in your tank, which is a better value?

And in some future scenario we may be able to recycle said lithium (it doesn't get consumed) while the gas you burn is gone forever. It's not like you'll get usable oil back out of it for a couple million years.

Li isn't a fuel. It's part of a battery. Gasoline is a fuel. It gets burned up and goes away and you need more.

We recycle less than 10% of used lithium

However there are new ba

EVs are orders of magnitude safer re fire than are gasoline or even hybrid powered vehicles.

I dont think so

 

[Bob Blaylock]

You are missing the point. There will be a required amount of lithium to replace ICE vehicles and that will have to be reproduced every 7 to 10 years.

If there really is a valid point that I am missing, here, I sure cannot see it.

It truly appears to me that you have no point, whatsoever, that is not based on bad comparisons and misapplied math.

 

[ding]

If there really is a valid point that I am missing, here, I sure cannot see it.

It truly appears to me that you have no point, whatsoever, that is not based on bad comparisons and misapplied math.

uh huh....

2019 worldwide lithium production was 86,000 metric tons which is 86,000,000 kg.

Using the lithium ion battery energy density of 265 Wh/kg this equates to 22,790,000 Wh or 22,790 kWh

A barrel of oil has the energy equivalence of 1700kWh. So the energy equivalent of what the world uses each day (88,000,000 bopd) is 149,600,000,000 kWh. Or 6,564,282.6 years of the current lithium production.

So can someone explain to me what we are doing here?

Because these batteries are not one and done. They have to be replaced every 7 to 10 years.

 

[Crick]

We recycle less than 10% of used lithium

However there are new ba

I dont think so

How about this time you actually take a look at one or more of the linked articles... you know... so you won't look quite so foolish.

EV Fires: Less Common But More Problematic?

IDTechEx Research Article: Fires in electric vehicles (EVs) certainly gain a lot of media attention in comparison to their internal combustion engine (ICE) counterparts. But a crucial question for the future of mobility is whether EVs are actually any more likely to catch fire than an ICE...

www.idtechex.com

Study: Hybrids, ICE Cars Far More Likely Than EVs To Catch Fire

The data says hybrids are the most prone to catching fire, while EVs are the least prone, although when they do catch fire, they are harder to put out.

insideevs.com

Government data show gasoline vehicles are up to 100x more prone to fires than EVs

Aside from the argument that gasoline vehicles operate via combustion, a study shows how prevalent gas vehicle fires are compared to EVs.

electrek.co

 

[Bob Blaylock]

2019 worldwide lithium production was 86,000 metric tons which is 86,000,000 kg.

Using the lithium ion battery energy density of 265 Wh/kg this equates to 22,790,000 Wh or 22,790 kWh

{22,790 33.7 ÷} 680

That's equivalent to approximately 680 gallons of gasoline. The Bronco that I have on order will have a twenty-gallon fuel tank. So, in 2019, the entire world produced enough lithium to make batteries comparable, in total capacity, to thirty four Broncos. It's a damn good thing the Bronco doesn't need such a battery. Ford's having a terrible enough time building them fast enough, as it is. I ordered mine last October, and I am still waiting for Ford to get around to building it. Imagine if it were electric, and Ford was able to hog the entire world's production of lithium, allowing it to build only thirty-four Broncos each year.

 

[ding]

{22,790 33.7 ÷} 680

That's equivalent to approximately 680 gallons of gasoline. The Bronco that I have on order will have a twenty-gallon fuel tank. So, in 2019, the entire world produced enough lithium to make batteries comparable, in total capacity, to thirty four Broncos. It's a damn good thing the Bronco doesn't need such a battery. Ford's having a terrible enough time building them fast enough, as it is. I ordered mine last October, and I am still waiting for Ford to get around to building it. Imagine if it were electric, and Ford was able to hog the entire world's production of lithium, allowing it to build only thirty-four Broncos each year.

It's settled. You are an idiot.

2019 worldwide lithium production was 86,000 metric tons which is 86,000,000 kg.

Lithium ion battery energy density is 265 Wh/kg

86,000,000 kg x 265 Wh/kg = 22,790,000 Wh

22,790,000 Wh divided by 1000 Wh/kWh = 22,790 kWh

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Using the lithium ion battery energy density of 265 Wh/kg this equates to 22,790,000 Wh or 22,790 kWh

A barrel of oil has the energy equivalence of 1700kWh. So the energy equivalent of what the world uses each day (88,000,000 bopd) is 149,600,000,000 kWh. Or 6,564,282.6 years of the current lithium production.

Once again, the comparison is nonsense. Oil is energy. Lithium is only a component in a device to store energy. Lithium is not any kind of energy source itself. Not, that is, until you use it in a Teller–Ulam device, in which case, the energy released from it, combined with the energy released from the other components of the device, ends up looking something like this:

 

[Bob Blaylock]

It's settled. You are an idiot.

Your innumeracy is no reflection on my intellect.

 

[ding]

Once again, the comparison is nonsense. Oil is energy. Lithium is only a component in a device to store energy. Lithium is not any kind of energy source itself. Not, that is, until you use it in a Teller–Ulam device, in which case, the energy released from it, combined with the energy released from the other components of the device, ends up looking something like this:

View attachment 645059

Energy is energy. 88 million barrels of oil every day is a shitload of energy to replace. The energy density of lithium batteries is only 265 Wh/kg. So it requires a shitload of lithium. It's just math, which you suck at.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

We recycle less than 10% of used lithium

And you're pretty sure there will never be a lithium recycling capability on earth? That there's some sort of fundamental law of nature that says Li cannot possibly be recycled?

Meanwhile a gallon of gas is burned and gone forever.

 

[ding]

Your innumeracy is no reflection on my intellect.

I disagree. You were shown the math. That makes you an idiot.

 

[Cardinal Carminative]

Energy is energy.

Bob Blaylock is correct and you are wrong, Ding. Li is used to STORE energy, not an energy source in and of itself.

I should think an engineer would know the difference between an energy source and a battery.

 

[ding]

And you're pretty sure there will never be a lithium recycling capability on earth? That there's some sort of fundamental law of nature that says Li cannot possibly be recycled?

Meanwhile a gallon of gas is burned and gone forever.

Why don't you calculate how much lithium is required to produce the energy of 88 million barrels of oil. I'm guessing it's because you can't.