Examples of why you can't tust Liberals with "reasonable" gun control

[S.J.]

People who have no regard for human life are the cause of gun violence (and every other kind). The same person that kills with a gun will kill with a knife, baseball bat, screwdriver, etc. Idiots like you, however, think it's the gun that does the killing.

So you have no idea that people like you are the real cause of gun violence in America. Paranoid racists who preach hate and fear like you, and others of every race, creed, ethnicity and social class.

Who does most of the killing in this country, dumbfuck? Gang members, drug dealers, in other words...CRIMINALS! Apparently you are not prepared to argue against that point. Prove me wrong, instead of spewing meaningless talking points like "paranoid racists preaching hate and fear". Give me a fucking break. Blacks kill blacks more than anyone kills anyone. Don't give me that "racist" bullshit. If that's all you have, then you suck at this.

Pointing out you are a racist and preach hate and fear is obvious to everyone but you, apparently. And, if you were capable of reading with comprehension, which you are not, you would note that I included other races, creeds, ethnicity and social class. So, feel good about not being alone and as culpable as other cowards whose sole source of feeling like a man means having a gun.

First of all, I don't own a gun. Second, you just reinforced what I said, racism is the only point you are ever capable of presenting.

I'm not surprised. How many times have you been detained civilly as a danger to yourself or others. Was the room padded?

More proof that you have no argument, just meaningless and childish comments.

 

[Brain357]

Silly? Saving lives isn't silly. The Giffords shooter stopped at reload. If only he had to reload sooner.

The giffords shooter was in the middle of a crowd and they got lucky...dittos for the long island train shooter...again packed into a group of people and they didn't try to rush him until the very end after a whole bunch of other people were already shot....and for each one you mention there are more where innocent people charged the attacker and were gunned down.....it is the worst idea in the world.......better to end gun free zones, and allow the victims to shoot back.....

If you are serious about stopping mass shooters.....then end gun free zones.....they do not attack places where they might encounter people with guns...we know this from their behavior....when they actually choose where they will go.....Santa barbara shooter, colorado theater shooter, 2 other kids planning attacks, and the guy in Canada who laughed at gun free zone laws....we know they choose gun free zones......

And when someone on the scene uses a gun....the killer is stopped and more lives are saved.....

Giffords wasn't a gun free zone....

So where is your list of lives saved by hi cap mags? I've not heard one yet.

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

 

[Brain357]

Silly? Saving lives isn't silly. The Giffords shooter stopped at reload. If only he had to reload sooner.

The giffords shooter was in the middle of a crowd and they got lucky...dittos for the long island train shooter...again packed into a group of people and they didn't try to rush him until the very end after a whole bunch of other people were already shot....and for each one you mention there are more where innocent people charged the attacker and were gunned down.....it is the worst idea in the world.......better to end gun free zones, and allow the victims to shoot back.....

If you are serious about stopping mass shooters.....then end gun free zones.....they do not attack places where they might encounter people with guns...we know this from their behavior....when they actually choose where they will go.....Santa barbara shooter, colorado theater shooter, 2 other kids planning attacks, and the guy in Canada who laughed at gun free zone laws....we know they choose gun free zones......

And when someone on the scene uses a gun....the killer is stopped and more lives are saved.....

Giffords wasn't a gun free zone....

So where is your list of lives saved by hi cap mags? I've not heard one yet.

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

Actually it was almost 500 which is a pretty large sample.

 

[S.J.]

The giffords shooter was in the middle of a crowd and they got lucky...dittos for the long island train shooter...again packed into a group of people and they didn't try to rush him until the very end after a whole bunch of other people were already shot....and for each one you mention there are more where innocent people charged the attacker and were gunned down.....it is the worst idea in the world.......better to end gun free zones, and allow the victims to shoot back.....

If you are serious about stopping mass shooters.....then end gun free zones.....they do not attack places where they might encounter people with guns...we know this from their behavior....when they actually choose where they will go.....Santa barbara shooter, colorado theater shooter, 2 other kids planning attacks, and the guy in Canada who laughed at gun free zone laws....we know they choose gun free zones......

And when someone on the scene uses a gun....the killer is stopped and more lives are saved.....

Giffords wasn't a gun free zone....

So where is your list of lives saved by hi cap mags? I've not heard one yet.

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

 

[Brain357]

The biggest gun free zones we have are with big corporations. I don't know anyone who can carry at work. Shootings at work are pretty common. Why aren't you going after them?

I would...they are violating the Civil rights of their employees by not allowing them to carry guns.....as per all the other civil rights laws at work....we can get to them after we protect what we have now....

and remember....the Doctor who broke the hospital gun free zone policy....saved lives by having his gun with him when he killed that former patient who also came into the gun free zone with a gun...but to kill innocent people...........

Gun free zones are stupid...and get people killed...lots of people....every school shooting for example.......gun free zones......church shootings, the Sikh temple.....gun free zone....businesses with armed employees.....dead criminals.....all the time.....the construction site where the guy went in to kill people with a gun....killed by the armed owner.....

Well make companies allow it then I might agree with you. I don't think the gun lobby will go after them though.

The gun lobby won't have to....one day they will be sued by their employees..........for civil rights violations.....

Then why not now?

With only 11 million choosing to carry what do you think is the chance of your armed hero first being there and second winning the gun fight? I'm sort of on the line with gun free zones. I've seen that several teachers have shot themselves.

Who knows....but I do know it has happened....at the Appalachian School Shooting, at the hospital with the doctor who broke the rule on gun free zones, at Pearl Mississipi and you can see it happen at small convenience stores all the time.....they may or may not have carry permits but they use guns to stop robberies....and you can't win a gun fight if you don't have a gun...and the best way to win a gun fight is to have a gun and shoot the bad guy....a lot easier than trying to do it empty handed......and law abiding gun owners....aren't shooting up the place.....even accidents are rare and a small number each year....out of well over 310 million guns in the country there are only 6-700 accidental gun deaths.....so tiny a number that it doesn't come close to touching the 11.1 million people who have concealed carry permits....

As to teachers and guns....I think that peripheral staff might be a better idea...principals, school secretaries, clerks, deans, nurses, librarians.....and keep in mind.....you just have to arm some of the staff, not everyone, and as long as people know the school is no longer a "gun free" zone, and that parents will also be carrying guns when they drop kids off, visit the principal, drop off forgotten homework....you lower the chance that that school will be chosen.......

Given that carry guns typically have magazines smaller than 10 rounds, shouldn't you be for a limit?

Did any of your above examples require more than 10 rounds?

 

[Brain357]

Giffords wasn't a gun free zone....

So where is your list of lives saved by hi cap mags? I've not heard one yet.

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

 

[S.J.]

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

 

[Brain357]

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

 

[S.J.]

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

In about 300 years, yes.

 

[2aguy]

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....

Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....

How do you explain that Brain.....?

And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....

 

[2aguy]

Sadly....we will need to start counting bullets at crime scenes since those aren't usually reported in news stories...if your craziness gets steam, we will have to start logging in how many bullets each defender used.....

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

even if you could ban 10 round magazines...and crimials actually complied with the law.......then they would use multiple ten round magazines or attack in groups....considering how that video showed a guy with 6 revolvers laying down fire as fast as a guy with one semi auto handgun....and revolvers only have 5 or 6 bullets.....

Your idea is just...dumb...Brain...with all due respect....

 

[2aguy]

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....

Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner

Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:

Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.

Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.

When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.

Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.

Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.

However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.

Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …

There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.

Successful Disarms

In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.

In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.

Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.

However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.

When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.

He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.

This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.

Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.

She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.

In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.

What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.

And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....

 

[2aguy]

More....

Physical Mismatches

If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.

In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.


Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....


A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.

This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”

 

[Brain357]

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

even if you could ban 10 round magazines...and crimials actually complied with the law.......then they would use multiple ten round magazines or attack in groups....considering how that video showed a guy with 6 revolvers laying down fire as fast as a guy with one semi auto handgun....and revolvers only have 5 or 6 bullets.....

Your idea is just...dumb...Brain...with all due respect....

You are ignoring what has happened. Gifford and other shooters stopped at reload. Kids escaped at newtown while shooter reloaded. Fewer strays would be flying everywhere in drive buys. Nothing dumb about saving lives and I have real examples where it would have saved lives.

 

[Brain357]

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

Brain...I will let the Master handle your idea....

Disarming Mass Murderers American Handgunner

Disarming Mass Murderers
Situation:

Some gun grabbers seek magazine capacity limits, citing the theory it’ll force mass murderers to reload sooner — allowing them to be disarmed by citizens and thus reducing potential death toll.

Lesson:
There are faster ways to stop mass murderers; disarming is a risky strategy at best. In most cases, mass murderers and spree killers carry multiple guns — and they’re not going to give them up to unarmed citizens.

When legislation is introduced to ban or criminalize so-called “high-capacity magazines,” one argument always cited by gun grabbers is it will force mass-murderers to reload sooner — creating a window of opportunity in which some heroic citizen can disarm them and stop the killing. There are, of course, several things wrong with this hypothesis. One is the unrealistic assumption someone who’s willing to commit mass murder won’t be willing to access and use an illegal magazine.

Tactically, how likely is it there will be someone close enough to jump a gunman caught at slide-lock without the rescuer already (being in such close proximity to the murderer) shot before he could even make the disarming attempt? To find the answer, we have to look deeply into the history of such incidents.

Disarms During Reloading … or Not?
Two incidents seem to be most often cited by those who demand reduced magazine capacity. One is the capture of Jared Loughner after the murder spree in Tucson in which he killed six people and wounded a dozen more, including US Representative Gabrielle Giffords. The other is the capture of Colin Ferguson, which ended the Long Island Railroad train massacre, which claimed six lives and left 19 more people wounded.
In each case, multiple people were able to overpower the killer at a point when his weapon was no longer shootable. It should be noted, however, accounts of how it happened seem to differ among the witnesses. In the case of Loughner, we know Patricia Maisch ended up holding one of his magazines. Some of Ms. Maisch’s accounts make it sound as if she ripped it from his hand, while in others, she seems to say he dropped it and she picked it up.

However, Loughner was carrying multiple magazines, and at least one witness insists he had already reloaded a fresh magazine — but had somehow jammed the Glock 19 while attempting to complete the reload. In the Long Island Railroad massacre, Ferguson reloaded at least once and sustained fire. His Ruger P89 had apparently run dry at the time he was rushed and overpowered by unarmed citizens. Accounts differ as to whether Ferguson was attempting to reload a third full magazine at this time, or had shot all his magazines empty and was trying to insert loose cartridges into one of the empty mags.

Thus, it remains possible Loughner was successfully disarmed, not because he was reloading per se, but because he had jammed his already-reloaded gun. If in fact Ferguson had run out of loaded magazines, he was de facto more “out of ammunition” than he was “reloading” at the time he was overpowered and disarmed. Details, details …

There have been successful disarms in public shootings; let’s take a look.

Successful Disarms

In Moses Lake, Wash., 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire at the middle school he attended. Armed with a .30-30 rifle, .357 Magnum revolver, .25 auto and 78 rounds of ammunition, he killed three victims and wounded a fourth before a gym coach was able to wrestle the rifle away from him and hold him down. Note: the courageous gym teacher didn’t let the murderer keep shooting and killing until he ran empty — he got the .30-30 away from the young murderer while it was still loaded. If you’re going to attempt a disarm, this strategy would seem likely to save the most lives.

In June 2014, Aaron Ybarra, 26, opened fire at Seattle Pacific University. He killed one and injured three, and was then pepper-sprayed and overpowered by student monitor Jon Meis. According to one report, the killer’s weapon was a double-barrel shotgun, in poor repair and capable of firing only one barrel — for all practical intents and purposes, a single-shot weapon. While this in no way detracts from the courage displayed by the heroic Jon Meis, it’s not common for mass murderers to use single-shot weapons.

Another young hero to emerge from a mass murder atrocity is Jacob Ryker. Kip Kinkel, 15, murdered his parents and gained control of a Ruger 10/22 rifle, Ruger MK II .22 pistol and 9mm Glock 19. He took them to his school in Springfield, Ore., with an ample supply of ammunition and opened fire. His barrage had killed four people and wounded 25 more when one of those wounded students, young Mr. Ryker, jumped him as the killer reloaded the rifle.

However, Kinkel had armed himself with multiple weapons. During the struggle, he drew the 9mm and fired, wounding Ryker again and also another student. Then according to accounts, Ryker, now joined by six other students, was able to finally disarm him and gain physical control. By then, Kinkel had fired a total of 51 rounds, 37 of which struck human targets.

When It Goes Wrong
Getting a gun away from a killer isn’t easy. Good people have died in the attempt. In the Luby’s Cafeteria massacre in Killeen, Texas, George Hennard drove his pickup truck through the plate glass window of the restaurant and stepped out with a Ruger P89 and a Glock 17. He shot 43 people, 23 fatally. In the midst of the slaughter, Al Hupp attempted to disarm the madman.

He wasn’t successful. Hennard shot him in the chest with one of the pistols, mortally wounding him. As Hupp’s wife cradled her dying husband, Hennard shot her dead too. When police arrived and he tasted return fire, Hennard killed himself.

This atrocity occurred before the passage of shall-issue concealed carry in Texas. Suzanna Gratia-Hupp, the murdered couple’s daughter, had left her S&W .38 in her parked vehicle according to Texas law. She was certain she could have neutralized Hennard early in the encounter had her gun been within reach. Instead, she endured the horror of watching her parents murdered. Ever since, Suzanna Gratia-Hupp has been one of our most eloquent and poignant spokespersons for armed citizens and lawful concealed carry.

Perhaps the most glaringly conspicuous failure to disarm occurred during the mass murder that most tore at America’s heart: Sandy Hook. The first to die was petite school principal Dawn Hochsprung. As quintessential loser Adam Lanza blasted his way through the locked door of the school, she ran at him in what could only be construed as an attempt to disarm and restrain.

She apparently never got within touching distance before he shot her down. Later, with 20 helpless children and six brave but helpless adults dead at his hands, he blew his brains out as soon as police arrived.

In Colebrook, N.H., a bitter old man named Carl Drega went on a murder rampage, assassinating two state troopers and a female judge he hated. As he left the latter murder scene, newspaper editor Dennis Joos attempted to get his rifle away from him. Drega reportedly snarled, “Mind your own f—ing business,” threw Joos to the sidewalk, and killed him with multiple gunshots. After a manhunt in which multiple lawmen were wounded, Drega was shot and killed by police.

What about verbally convincing the gunman to just put down the gun? This strategy doesn’t have a promising history. In 2013, a 12-year-old boy came to school with a gun in Sparks, Nev. Teacher Michael Landsberry tried to “talk him down.” The boy shot and killed the teacher, and then committed suicide.

And the article continues...well worth the reading on the subject of magazine limits....

Sorry Bill but people have stopped shooters and escaped while a shooter is reloading. These are real world examples. Remember that last school shooting and how a teacher stopped the shooter?

 

[Brain357]

More....

Physical Mismatches

If you’re close enough to grab the offender as soon as he starts shooting — and actually know how to do it — you have a reasonable chance of succeeding. Unfortunately if you’re close, you’ll very likely be one of the first victims of his criminal gunfire, perhaps before you can act. There is also the matter of relative physical strength. In the Loukaitis incident, an adult male gym teacher was able to overpower a 14-year-old boy who, judging by his photos, was physically unintimidating.

In the Drega murders, Dennis Joos wasn’t a physically large or especially strong man, and was up against a rugged, muscular killer who stood over 6’ tall and weighed well over 200 pounds.


Massad Ayoob is always a great source when dealing with anti gun nuttery....


A pioneer in the concept of lone-officer response to active mass murder incidents, he’s one of the nation’s leading authorities on this sort of terrible event. When he and I were both instructing at the International Law Enforcement Educators and Trainers Association (ILEETA) conference earlier this year, I asked him how many of the mass killers he studied had been armed with multiple guns. “Well over half,” he answered.

This isn’t new. One of the worst mass murderers in American history goes back to Civil War times, “Bloody Bill” Anderson, a senior officer in Quantrill’s Raiders. The trademark of these guerrillas was carrying multiple revolvers, usually .36-caliber Navy Colts. When he was killed in a shootout with Union troops, an eyewitness to Anderson’s death said, “Bloody Bill had four revolvers buckled around him and two very large ones across the saddle.”

And when the Giffords shooter tried to reload he was stopped. Sorry but your expert is wrong because it has happened.

 

[Brain357]

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

In about 300 years, yes.

Better start now then. But you greatly exaggerate the time frame.

 

[Brain357]

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

You must think that 300 million guns that are already out there are going to disappear.

No not at all, but they all sure don't have hi cap mags either. If there was a limit in place all the hi cap mags would be hoarded by the gun nuts. Pretty soon they would be hard for criminals to get. Those in criminal hands now will eventually fall into police hands and be destroyed.

Would they be as hard to get as fully automatic Russian rifles in France, a country with stricter gun control than the United States....where the guys who got the guns...one was already a convicted criminal, and both were on the governments terrorist watch list....I'm sure they had no trouble getting standard magazines to go with their illegal, fully automatic rifles........and their rocket propelled grenade, and hand grenades...dittos for the other gunmen in France who have also killed people, but whose stories haven't been covered by the U.S. media......or the terrorist in Belium....another country with strict gun control......and another terrorist who had no problem getting military grade rifles and magazines....

Those stories show your notions are silly Brain.....France and Belgium have far stricter bans on civilian ownership of handguns, fully automatic rifles, standard magazines, rocket propelled grenades, and hand grenades.....and the criminals who wanted them had no trouble getting them.....

How do you explain that Brain.....?

And as shown by France.....if there is a desire for standard magazines...criminals will get them, when they want them.....the only people who won't get them are law abiding citizens...the ones who aren't abusing them now.....

How do you explain the mass shooter in CA not bothering to get all those things and using 10 round magazines? And if they have to illegally buy things there is a chance they are caught illegally buying and stopped before anyone dies.

 

[Brain357]

Was done using armed citizen, 2-3 shots.

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

even if you could ban 10 round magazines...and crimials actually complied with the law.......then they would use multiple ten round magazines or attack in groups....considering how that video showed a guy with 6 revolvers laying down fire as fast as a guy with one semi auto handgun....and revolvers only have 5 or 6 bullets.....

Your idea is just...dumb...Brain...with all due respect....

What is it you think unarmed people should do against a shooter? Are you suggesting the kids at newtown shouldn't have run away? The people at the giffords shooting shouldn't have stopped the shooter? They should have let him reload and shoot more?

It's pretty clear you don't want to hamper the mass shooter in any way.

 

[2aguy]

The Armed Citizen research only looked at just over 100 news stories so it is hardly a representative sample....and again....you can't tell someone how many bullets they will need to survive...and until you do, I am not going to help disarm innocent, law abiding people in the face of violent criminals.....

What you are really doing is arming mass shooters and gang bangers.

Gang bangers don't usually go to gun stores to buy their weapons. In fact, they don't usually BUY their weapons, they steal them. After all, they ARE criminals, no?

Yes so they carry the most common guns. If those become guns with mags that hold 10 or less that is what the gang banger will typically have.

even if you could ban 10 round magazines...and crimials actually complied with the law.......then they would use multiple ten round magazines or attack in groups....considering how that video showed a guy with 6 revolvers laying down fire as fast as a guy with one semi auto handgun....and revolvers only have 5 or 6 bullets.....

Your idea is just...dumb...Brain...with all due respect....

You are ignoring what has happened. Gifford and other shooters stopped at reload. Kids escaped at newtown while shooter reloaded. Fewer strays would be flying everywhere in drive buys. Nothing dumb about saving lives and I have real examples where it would have saved lives.

And I have as many or more where people were killed attacking mass shooters empty handed because you guys kept them from having guns...while your laws did nothing to stop the killers from getting guns and magazines that they wanted....Giffords...shot from a crowd....they got lucky...apparently your Long Island train example is wrong since he was out of ammo when he was rushed.....and reloaded at least once and kept killing, even in the crowded train....

Reread Masaad Ayoob's piece...he also points out that even if you rush the guy....you have to be able to physically defeat him then...all while he is drawing another gun......

The real solution...end stupid gun free killing zones....then the killers won't even show up to kill people.....problem solved, lives saved......

And if they can't keep fully automatic weapons out of the hands of 2 terrorists, both of whom were on a government anti terror watch list, in strict, gun controlled France.......why on earth do you think you could keep them out of the hands of gang bangers who bring in billions of dollars of drugs into this country every year? Just nuts.......